What's GOOD about 4E?

[kesher]

Wow, thanks for that thoughtful response!

I think you've a strong insight with the idea that they almost could've pared classes down to the four combat roles and then you mess with them through Powers or Feats. I do like that, in Essentials, anyhow, skills are VASTLY simplified from 3e, which is the part of 3e that always felt the least "D&D" to me, and seemed to fight for space with Feats, which I found much more interesting anyhow.

Thanks again---you've given me some good food for thought!

[Finarvyn]

I like Essentials but am still troubled by the fact that each book is 350+ pages in size. I set them side by side with the OD&D LBB and think "what the heck did they put in there?"

I'd enjoy an "Essentials lite" version where they would trim out the wordiness and stick to the key charts and rules. That would be even better!

[kesher]

I get that, Fin, and that's been my feeling for quite awhile, too, until I realized it just isn't a fair comparison. Those 3LBB swiftly became 6LBB, swiftly became 3BHCB (big hardcover books!), and so on and so on.

I'm not a big fan of the Essentials layout----I think the fonts are too large and the margins too spread out, but if you took the ADD Player's Handbook of Dungeon Master's guide, and put in a similar size and layout, I don't think the page-count'd be too different.

[rabindranath72]

Feb 22, 2011 22:27:27 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I like Essentials but am still troubled by the fact that each book is 350+ pages in size. I set them side by side with the OD&D LBB and think "what the heck did they put in there?"

I'd enjoy an "Essentials lite" version where they would trim out the wordiness and stick to the key charts and rules. That would be even better!

I experimented with using the NPC rules in the DMG (can't recall the page) as PCs. This made for a very sleek experience, since PCs have only one or two powers.
This works well for non-spellcasting characters, though, so you might want to transform the usual cleric and wizard powers into rituals. Or if you want to run a more Sword & Sorcery scenario with no spellcasting PCs at all.
I have heard there are rules for "companion" NPCs in the DMG2, which might work for PCs, too, but I haven't seen them.

[phantomtim]

Feb 9, 2011 15:55:37 GMT -6 kesher said:

I've been reading the Essentials books and I have to say, if you go back to the previous page and look at jeffb's post, I'm feeling a lot like that.

I'm a little ashamed that I just went along with the "It's just WoW the RPG!" rhetoric initially. It's really, really NOT that. One of the more fascinating documents I've "found" is the Races and Classes preview book. It's stuffed with designer's notes, including text from staff emails and blogs, etc. Also, the DMG2 has crazy good rules on collaborative story-telling that are obviously (imo) influenced by the flourishing indie rpg movement.

Cool stuff.

This is such a refreshing post to read, even a decade later. I'll also add that even after all this time, I still find 4e's DMG2 to be one of my favorite GM advice books!

[jeffb]

phantomtim should be renamed necromancertim

Glad to see you digging into some of these old threads in various parts of the forum! It's good food for thought, no matter how old they may be.

[tombowings]

I love everything 4e does outside combat: skills, rituals, cantrips, power sources, etc. They're all brilliant. But as soon as the characters charge into battle, I fall asleep.

I've never found combat particularly enjoyable in any RPG I've run. Not because of the mechanics, but as a result of personal quirk. When reading literature, I often find myself skimming over physical confrontations. In the novels I write, scuffles are either quick and brutal or else focus on a character who is on the outskirts of battle (and providing a distraction, tending to the wounded, etc.).

That doesn't mean combat doesn't serve a purpose. I see combat as a potentially deadly consequence that occurs when players run out of other (more interesting) solutions to overcome obstacles. That's why I love the Chainmail mass-combat system; it decides the outcome of battle in one or two lightning-fast rounds.

So while I find 4e a wonderful game in many ways (it's by far the best of the WotC editions), it focuses too heavily on the one aspect of play I enjoy least.

[tdenmark]

Some of the art.

[jeffb]

Aug 23, 2021 0:13:09 GMT -6 tombowings said:

I love everything 4e does outside combat: skills, rituals, cantrips, power sources, etc. They're all brilliant. But as soon as the characters charge into battle, I fall asleep.

I've never found combat particularly enjoyable in any RPG I've run. Not because of the mechanics, but as a result of personal quirk. When reading literature, I often find myself skimming over physical confrontations. In the novels I write, scuffles are either quick and brutal or else focus on a character who is on the outskirts of battle (and providing a distraction, tending to the wounded, etc.).

That doesn't mean combat doesn't serve a purpose. I see combat as a potentially deadly consequence that occurs when players run out of other (more interesting) solutions to overcome obstacles. That's why I love the Chainmail mass-combat system; it decides the outcome of battle in one or two lightning-fast rounds.

So while I find 4e a wonderful game in many ways (it's by far the best of the WotC editions), it focuses too heavily on the one aspect of play I enjoy least.

I'm with you Tom. I like combat, but I don't see it as the main draw or highlight- it's just one piece. I don't want it to take up too much table time. I don't want it to be a game within a game, where you say "OK, roll initiative..." and suddenly you are playing something entirely different than you were before, and where metagame knowledge fuels all decisions.

BUT if I'm going to do it, I want it to be exciting, and fast moving. So nearly every edition of D&D is a problem (some are better than others). This is why Dungeon World has become my game of choice- The entire game works the same in and out of combat, and it runs fast (and deadly). I had to modify 4E quite a bit for my style, but I made it work. I've yet to run any edition of D&D as written, why start now?