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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 18, 2012 9:00:31 GMT -6
I know that the SFBC has an omnibus collection of the first three Barsoom books under the title Under the Moons of Mars. This isn't that book, even though it has the same title. Under the Moons of Mars is a new hardback collection of Barsoom stories by various authors. I picked it up last night and hope to start it ASAP.  An interesting note is that the book says that it is in no way authorized or sanctioned by the Burroughs estate. I wonder how they pulled that off, and if this could open a pathway to a company making a Barsoom RPG. |
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Post by Morandir on Feb 18, 2012 10:01:24 GMT -6
The first 5 books are public domain in the US, so (AFAIK) it should be perfectly legal. Which, I would imagine, means a Barsoom RPG would be as well. But IANAL, so take that with a grain of salt.
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Post by jmccann on Feb 18, 2012 11:43:53 GMT -6
The first 5 books are public domain in the US, so (AFAIK) it should be perfectly legal. Which, I would imagine, means a Barsoom RPG would be as well. But IANAL, so take that with a grain of salt. I don't think that's right. TSR obviously thought so and they were wrong. Now Disney has an obvious interest, that makes it even less likely. The empire of the evil mouse will not permit a game to be published that we on a ODD board will like. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Feb 18, 2012 12:28:11 GMT -6
TSR published their game nearly 40 years ago. The first 5 books are clearly in the public domain in the US, any minor googling will make this obvious. In theory, you should be able to make a work based off of those 5 books and be in the clear.
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rleduc
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 75
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Post by rleduc on Feb 18, 2012 13:07:55 GMT -6
Ouch. I'm an antique.
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Post by jmccann on Feb 18, 2012 18:35:40 GMT -6
TSR published their game nearly 40 years ago. The first 5 books are clearly in the public domain in the US, any minor googling will make this obvious. In theory, you should be able to make a work based off of those 5 books and be in the clear. Yes, anyone can publish those 5 books. That doesn't mean anyone can publish a game or other derivative works based on those books using recognizable names and depictions. If someone were to publish a game based on Barsoom with John Carter they would quickly hear from these guys: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Rice_Burroughs,_Inc., and no doubt the Walt Disney company. It might be possible to legally make a game based on only the first 5 books without a license, steering clear of any unauthorized use of a trademark or copyrighted element, but even if you did I am 100% sure you would have to defend it in court at very high cost against a company which has very deep pockets. The attempt to do so would also require a lot of legal research with an IP lawyer to determine just what was legal and what might be infringing. Any company with those resources would just buy a license if they wanted to publish such a game. |
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Post by Morandir on Feb 18, 2012 19:20:06 GMT -6
I dunno; if you can publish a collection of short stories, why not an RPG? As long as you don't use any trademarked names or copy anything from the books still under copyright, I think you'd be just as OK as whoever published the book in the OP.
TSR's big problem was using names/terms that were directly trademarked; the ERB estate had no choice but to issue a C&D because you have to actively defend a trademark in order to keep it. Steer clear of those and I think you'd be fine. Martian encounter lists are featured in Vol. III, and no one has challenged those. So in some respects, a Barsoom RPG already exists.
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Post by jmccann on Feb 18, 2012 21:34:23 GMT -6
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Post by jmccann on Feb 18, 2012 21:54:05 GMT -6
I dunno; if you can publish a collection of short stories, why not an RPG? As long as you don't use any trademarked names or copy anything from the books still under copyright, I think you'd be just as OK as whoever published the book in the OP. Sure. But I was responding to the claim that the public domain status of the first 5 books means that the publication of a Barsoom RPG would be "in the clear". It would not necessarily be. The public domain status of 5 of the Barsoom books alone does not mean that an RPG could be published about Barsoom and would be clear. You'd have to tread very carefully indeed and omit anything that Barsoom Inc. or Disney has trademarked or copyrighted - which I suspect is pretty extensive given Disney's upcoming release. TSR's big problem was using names/terms that were directly trademarked; the ERB estate had no choice but to issue a C&D because you have to actively defend a trademark in order to keep it. Steer clear of those and I think you'd be fine. Martian encounter lists are featured in Vol. III, and no one has challenged those. So in some respects, a Barsoom RPG already exists. There is a huge difference between a game which skirts around the copyrighted and trademarked names of things and one which uses them. Calling OD&D a Barsoom RPG because of the "Green Martians" and so on entries is silly in my view. I was astonished to find that the word Barsoom itself is not trademarked, but other obvious names are. So someone could publish a game with huge, obvious holes - like no John Carter character, and a number of others I am sure. I suspect that the publishers of the collection in the OP know this and that is why they are doing this. But you can be sure that they are being very careful. -- edited to fix blockquote fail and again for grammar |
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Post by Morandir on Feb 18, 2012 22:36:51 GMT -6
I agree, you'd have to be careful (and I'm as surprised as you are that Barsoom isn't trademarked!), but my original point was that it is possible. It requires care, but Under the Moons of Mars proves that you can publish material set on Barsoom without falling afoul of the ERB estate's copyrights and trademarks. I think the better question is whether or not it's worth it to take that sort of care, and as you noted anyone with the time/money to do so would probably just secure a license. Still, I think it could be done.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Feb 19, 2012 4:12:15 GMT -6
I'll still stick by my "in theory" post.
If you've dealt with Copyright and Trademark law, you'll know that derivative works are a protection of Copyright, not Trademarks. Yes, you'd have to dance nimbly, and likely you might be put upon by ERB Inc or Disney for things depending upon how nimbly you danced, but again, public domain means available for public use to copy directly, make derivative works without permission, etc. (Meaning make sure you're referencing only stuff from the first 5 books and not later books, and also make sure you aren't referencing things from the upcoming movie or any likenesses from the movie and not the books. You should be able to use characters, descriptions, etc. from the books. Again, in theory.)
Now, with Disney jumping into the fray, I'm not saying I'm eager to test the waters, but even then, for a minor run RPG, my guess is that you'd get a C&D at the worst, out of the gate. (IANAL and all that)
I'm looking forward to the people who have a preexisiting TM on John Carter for Toy Figures to see how they play it.
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Post by jmccann on Feb 19, 2012 13:02:03 GMT -6
I'll still stick by my "in theory" post. If you've dealt with Copyright and Trademark law, you'll know that derivative works are a protection of Copyright, not Trademarks. Yes, you'd have to dance nimbly, and likely you might be put upon by ERB Inc or Disney for things depending upon how nimbly you danced, but again, public domain means available for public use to copy directly, make derivative works without permission, etc. (Meaning make sure you're referencing only stuff from the first 5 books and not later books, and also make sure you aren't referencing things from the upcoming movie or any likenesses from the movie and not the books. You should be able to use characters, descriptions, etc. from the books. Again, in theory.) Now, with Disney jumping into the fray, I'm not saying I'm eager to test the waters, but even then, for a minor run RPG, my guess is that you'd get a C&D at the worst, out of the gate. (IANAL and all that) I'm looking forward to the people who have a preexisiting TM on John Carter for Toy Figures to see how they play it. Dancing nimbly means: No John Carter, no Dejah Thoris. You might get away with a handful of minor characters and creatures that appear nowhere in the current movie or which Disney or ERB Inc. have staked out. The PD status of the first 5 books has no bearing on this. It would be like renaming hobbits halflings, ents treants, Balrog Balor and so on. At least you apparently could use the name Barsoom. If you want to call that a Barsoom game, then yes, you could publish a Barsoom game. My definition of Barsoom game includes major recognizable characters however. It would be like Stormbringer without Elric or Hyboria without Conan. If someone bought it without being aware in advance of the copyright doging they would be rightly upset. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Feb 19, 2012 16:14:53 GMT -6
Dancing nimbly means: No John Carter, no Dejah Thoris. You might get away with a handful of minor characters and creatures that appear nowhere in the current movie or which Disney or ERB Inc. have staked out. The PD status of the first 5 books has no bearing on this. It would be like renaming hobbits halflings, ents treants, Balrog Balor and so on. At least you apparently could use the name Barsoom. If you want to call that a Barsoom game, then yes, you could publish a Barsoom game. My definition of Barsoom game includes major recognizable characters however. It would be like Stormbringer without Elric or Hyboria without Conan. If someone bought it without being aware in advance of the copyright doging they would be rightly upset. I'm not certain this assertion is correct. Take Shakespeare, just because Disney or some other Hollywood Studio makes a film about Hamlet, it doesn't mean that they have rights to those characters exclusively. Yes, you can't use the visual elements or the new copyright that they have on the film, but the original work is open for use, names, places, etc. for exact copies, derivative works, etc. Sherlock Holmes, etc. Same thing. The early works of ERB are in this same exact category as all of those works. In theory, if I wanted to make a film of the first book, with John Carter as the star, I should be well within my rights. Or a fan fic book based off of the first 5 books, etc. Yeah, you may or may not have some heat from ERB Inc and/or Disney, but as long as ou were careful to use the works in the public domain, you're standing on the same solid ground that allows you to make a film or play using A Mid-Summer Night's Dream. |
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Post by jmccann on Feb 19, 2012 18:03:35 GMT -6
In theory, if I wanted to make a film of the first book, with John Carter as the star, I should be well within my rights. Or a fan fic book based off of the first 5 books, etc. Yeah, you may or may not have some heat from ERB Inc and/or Disney, but as long as ou were careful to use the works in the public domain, you're standing on the same solid ground that allows you to make a film or play using A Mid-Summer Night's Dream. OK, I think I finally see where we differ. You think that the PD nature of the first 5 books permits use of trademarked or copyrighted characters (staying away from trademarked imagery) in derivative works so long as they are only in those 5 books and not the subsequent ones still under copyright - is that a fair reading? I don't know of such a mechanism but would be curious to read about this. I don't think the situation is analogous to Shakespeare though - there is no Shakespeare Inc. protecting rights, although movie studios would obviously protect distinctive imagery from their movies (no Gwyneth Paltrow lookalikes on book covers etc.) since all of Shakespeare is in the PD. |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Feb 19, 2012 19:44:48 GMT -6
OK, I think I finally see where we differ. You think that the PD nature of the first 5 books permits use of trademarked or copyrighted characters (staying away from trademarked imagery) in derivative works so long as they are only in those 5 books and not the subsequent ones still under copyright - is that a fair reading? I don't know of such a mechanism but would be curious to read about this. I don't think the situation is analogous to Shakespeare though - there is no Shakespeare Inc. protecting rights, although movie studios would obviously protect distinctive imagery from their movies (no Gwyneth Paltrow lookalikes on book covers etc.) since all of Shakespeare is in the PD. That's a fair reading of my stance on it. Certainly not backed up by my lawyers or anything. The author does have other works that use those same characters and settings that are copyrighted, but that shouldn't garner the same copyright protection on the original works that have fallen to public domain. In essence his copyright protection is on the John Carter of books 6-11. The TM law seems a heck of a lot more murky on that, though. But the copyright is pretty clear, the copyright on "The Princess of Mars" and all of it's contents are PD. Suppose I created a corporation, Moses and the Ark, Inc., and created some stories using that story, even made a movie and a game around them. My works would absolutely be copyrighted and the creative license I took with them would be protected, but no chance in heck could I claim (C) or TM to the works of the Bible and prevent their use from other people. I could certainly hassle people who did and likely scare a lot of people away from actually doing something productive with them. But, as I understand it, I'd be in the wrong on the law. Now, certainly Barsoom and John Carter haven't been as widely used in the public, and ERB's formation of his corp very early on likely has a lot to do with that. As far as Disney is concerned, I'm guessing their rights are almost exclusively visual and the derivations the took in the movie. I suspect you are more than right that if you wanted to get it done and it was at all successful, you'd likely have to go to court to protect your rights. It'd be a hell of an interesting case, though, and I suspect it'd fall in your favor. In 2019 the march of expired copyrights continues again. Theoretically, in 2025 "Steamboat Willie" will go PD. I'm certain congress will pass another law extending things by then. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Mar 3, 2012 13:11:30 GMT -6
Over the past decade I had been contemplating writing an RPG true to the Barsoom books but after some research had to put it away, because the legalities were truly daunting and getting a license from the ERB estate would have been prohibitive. It's a shame that all that creativity will not see a release to the general public.  |
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Post by jmccann on Mar 3, 2012 21:08:05 GMT -6
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on Mar 5, 2012 0:25:33 GMT -6
It's a disturbing ruling, to be sure, but not definitive, yet... That said, that specific case seems to be pushing the boundaries to me. The likeness of the movie characters, even though they appear on the ads, are still the likenesses of the actors themselves. This seems different than doing something in print based on PD works, if anything I'd say it strengthens my original argument that the copyright on the later works of the PD materials isn't that strong. Or at very least, wasn't before this ruling. Hopefully the Supreme Court clarifies this/reverses this. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 5, 2012 5:13:46 GMT -6
Interesing stuff. Also interesting that I had two points in the original post...
(1) This new anthology was out
(2) Could it open the door to a Barsoom RPG
...and everyone ran with #2. I just finished reading the anthology last night and plan on posting a quick review sometime soon. Some good stories, some I didn't like so much. Anyone interested in the actual anthology?
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terje
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Blasphemous accelerator
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Post by terje on Mar 6, 2012 8:09:11 GMT -6
Yes, I've been trying to decide wether to buy it or not and would love to hear your opinion!
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Post by garham on Mar 6, 2012 11:17:16 GMT -6
Interesing stuff. Also interesting that I had two points in the original post... (1) This new anthology was out (2) Could it open the door to a Barsoom RPG ...and everyone ran with #2. I just finished reading the anthology last night and plan on posting a quick review sometime soon. Some good stories, some I didn't like so much. Anyone interested in the actual anthology? Me for one. Who is in it? |
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 6, 2012 20:50:39 GMT -6
Here's a quick table of contents. Review later.
"The Metal Men of Mars" by Joe R Lansdale
"Three Deaths" by David Bar Krtley
"The Ape-Man of Mars" by Peter S. Beagle
"A Tinker of Warhoon" by Tobias S Buckell
"Vengeance of Mars" by Robin Wasserman
'Woola's Song" by Theodora Goss
"The River Gods of Mars" by Austin Grossman
"The Bronze Man of Mars" by L.E. Modesitt, Jr
"A Game of Mars" by Genevieve Valentine
"A Sidekick of Mars" by Garth Nix
"The Ghose that Haunts the Superstition Mountains" by Chris Clairmont
"The Jasoom Project" by S.M. Stirling
"Coming of Age in Barsoom" by Catherynne M. Valente
"The Death Song of Swar Guntha" by Jonathan Maberry
Some authors I've heard of, others I have not.
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