|
|
Post by strangebrew on Nov 15, 2011 19:25:37 GMT -6
Hey everyone!
I'm relatively new to the boards, and am interested in getting into the JG Wilderlands products, or JG D&D products in general. It seems a bit overwhelming, however.
Where would you suggest a newbie starting? Which products are must-haves? Where is the best place to look? (eBay, etc)
Is it financially reasonable to track down originals, or are they too expensive to make it worth it? Let's say a starting budget of $30-50?
|
|
|
|
Post by kenmeister on Nov 15, 2011 19:40:31 GMT -6
Buy a copy of City State of the Invincible Overlord and try to track down campaign map #1 which it is located in. That will probably eat up your budget, but it is just about all you need too.
|
|
kent
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 307
|
Post by kent on Nov 15, 2011 20:59:08 GMT -6
I would start with the best:
Caverns of Thracia (because Jaquays is rivalled only by Gygax for his modules)
The Wilderlands of High Fantasy (for the superb maps and the brief and wonderful hex descriptions)
If you can't get Caverns of Thracia, get Dark Tower (Jaquays).
If you like rules and tables get the Ready Reference Sheets.
I think City State of the Invincible Overlord is over-rated. You have to think troll innkeepers and 6th level barmaids are fun. Even the map is just ok being too rectilinear for a city.
To purchase compare prices on ebay, amazon and noble knight.
|
|
|
|
Post by makofan on Nov 15, 2011 21:43:34 GMT -6
To my mind, City State of the Invincible Overlord and Wilderlands of High Fantasy is all you will ever need. Start the characters in the City State
|
|
|
|
Post by geoffrey on Nov 15, 2011 21:49:06 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by kenmeister on Nov 16, 2011 19:49:15 GMT -6
I would start with the best: Caverns of Thracia (because Jaquays is rivalled only by Gygax for his modules) The Wilderlands of High Fantasy (for the superb maps and the brief and wonderful hex descriptions) If you can't get Caverns of Thracia, get Dark Tower (Jaquays). If you like rules and tables get the Ready Reference Sheets. I think City State of the Invincible Overlord is over-rated. You have to think troll innkeepers and 6th level barmaids are fun. Even the map is just ok being too rectilinear for a city. To purchase compare prices on ebay, amazon and noble knight. While you can put Caverns of Thracia or Dark Tower into any campaign world, they are not specifically a part of the Wilderlands. strangebrew asked where to start with the Wilderlands, not where to start with Judges Guild. PS: I do actually think troll innkeepers can be fun. |
|
jasmith
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 310
|
Post by jasmith on Nov 16, 2011 20:36:42 GMT -6
Hey everyone! I'm relatively new to the boards, and am interested in getting into the JG Wilderlands products, or JG D&D products in general. It seems a bit overwhelming, however. Where would you suggest a newbie starting? Which products are must-haves? Where is the best place to look? (eBay, etc) Is it financially reasonable to track down originals, or are they too expensive to make it worth it? Let's say a starting budget of $30-50? This will give you some ideas about pricing for original copies: underdarkgazette.blogspot.com/2011/10/lo-old-school-magic-of-judges-guild.htmlHave Fun!  |
|
kent
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 307
|
Post by kent on Nov 16, 2011 21:16:43 GMT -6
strangebrew asked where to start with the Wilderlands, not where to start with Judges Guild. Oh. I'm interested in getting into the JG Wilderlands products, or JG D&D products in general. |
|
|
|
Post by kenmeister on Nov 18, 2011 5:27:23 GMT -6
strangebrew asked where to start with the Wilderlands, not where to start with Judges Guild. Oh. I'm interested in getting into the JG Wilderlands products, or JG D&D products in general. You've uncovered my deep dark secret - I only read thread subjects! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by strangebrew on Nov 18, 2011 16:17:09 GMT -6
Thanks for the help, everyone. I just got an order in for Ready Ref sheets and a module from Different Worlds, so I guess this is the start of my collection. I think I'm going to try to track down WoHF and perhaps CSIO.
Thanks for the newer Wilderlands tip, Geoffrey. How does the new Necro. Games stuff compare to the originals? Beyond the stats, which i'm guessing is D&D 3.-something-or-another.
Great blog post jasmith. It was informative, inspirational, and a wee bit intimidating.
|
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Nov 18, 2011 20:45:54 GMT -6
CSIO (the original) is definitely the place to start. The world expands out from there.
|
|
|
|
Post by geoffrey on Nov 18, 2011 21:53:40 GMT -6
Thanks for the newer Wilderlands tip, Geoffrey. How does the new Necro. Games stuff compare to the originals? Beyond the stats, which i'm guessing is D&D 3.-something-or-another. Necromancer's Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set consists of the following: 1. Information from all of Judges Guild's old Wilderlands books, integrated. For example, in an old Judges Guild book describing a Wilderlands map, you are given a list of towns on the map, then a list of monsters on the map, then a list of weird things on the map, etc. So if your players wander into hex 0822 (for example), you have to consult several lists to see if hex 0822 is on any of the lists. But with the Necromancer set, there is only one entry for hex 0822, complete with any thing therein (whether town, monster, castle, etc.). 2. Bob Bledsaw himself gave Necromancer further information regarding the Wilderlands to put in the product. 3. Further, some very creative people (such as Gabor Lux, Rob Conley, James Mishler, etc.) expanded on the information in the old Judges Guild materials. All of the above adds up to the single coolest 3.X edition product ever. The stats are minimal and easily ignored where warranted (as you can see from that free Lenap download). I think there is a lifetime of gaming in that box. |
|
Melan
Level 6 Magician
Evil Scientist
Posts: 392
|
Post by Melan on Nov 19, 2011 15:27:28 GMT -6
Here is a post I made on the subject on RPGNet: There are three options to start out with the Wilderlands. All are out of print now, and not always easy to find. #1 The original version was published in the late 70s over multiple installments. Descriptions are minimalistic, but the maps are incredible (excellent paper stock, separate detailed Judges' and less detailed players' versions etc.) This is kinda expensive nowadays, and maybe not as accessible as the re-releases. Some of the original JG products are up on RPGNow at fairly cheap prices, but I can't vouch for their quality or completeness. #2 Player's Guide to the Wilderlands: The first book for the Necromancer Games line. In spite of the name, it functions very well as a regular, standalone setting book style product, something you would expect from a modern game - macro-level descriptions, some d20-based rules, races (some of which are human ethnic groups), gods, history and so on. It contains a lot of the flavour of the setting, but does not have the hex maps (which IMO are the main selling point). However, I have known people who preferred this "edition". #3 Wilderlands of High Fantasy: The Necromancer Games boxed set. Basically a big box with 18 regional hex maps and two thick setting guides. The information in the books is all micro-level - brief descriptions of villages, geographical features, fortresses, monster lairs, strange ruins, islands etc. Lots of adventure hooks and interesting places to explore everywhere. This, IMO, is the definitive version (potential conflict of interests: I contributed to it). It is for d20 3.5, but very stat-light, and largely edition-agnostic. I have run it for 3.0 and my own light d20-based house rules, and I have known people using it for variants from Swords&Wizardry to E6 and 4e. However, you also have to be aware the boxed set has three problems.
- First, it does not duplicate a lot of information from the Player's Guide, which means you will be missing some info on the gods and races (it does have a section on history, though). This is not a serious problem, since a lot of the gods are familiar from myth or fantasy (Thor, Mitra, Set etc.) and it is easy to slot in your own preferred pantheons.
- Second, unlike the old Wilderlands sets, there are no separate player maps, so you may have to download a blank hex map and draw some coastlines on it on your own, or visit the Fan Materials section of the Judges Guild site, where you can download a few player maps I created to help remedy that situation.
- Third, it is out of print, had a low print run of only 2000 copies, and it can get expensive; the going price on eBay for mint copies nowadays is $130-$150. That's a lot of money, even if you can get a lot of mileage out of it. You can get PDFs on RPGNow, though; a complete bundle with PGtW and the Caverns of Thracia adventure sells for $68, and you can print sections as you need them.
Fortunately, there is a very good option to try before you buy. The JG site offers a free PDF demo of Lenap, one of the 18 regions. This is a desert area with smaller cities and a jungle-covered coastal region, pretty suitable for Conan-inspired adventures. Since all our campaigns touched was two maps out of the 18, I am pretty sure you could get at least six months of play out of this map if you wanted to, which is pretty good for a demo. There are a few more preview materials, mostly from the Player's Guide. Here is how I'd do it if I was starting out:
- download and print the 18-page document and the campaign map, the latter on a larger sheet of thick paper
- download the players' map from the Fan Materials area, print as above
- find which adventure modules from your collection you would be interested in running in the campaign. Place them in map hexes all over the place as appropriate (again, a handful of smaller ones work best here).
- select a starting point for the characters. Read nearby locale descriptions, maybe write a few pages of notes for the ones you'd like to detail.
- let the players loose in the setting (a kickstart adventure or two helps them get oriented) and give them the sketch players' map (maybe placing a few cryptic notes and Xes on it?)
- add a steady flow of adventure hooks, let them learn of new adventure opportunities/locales as they explore and travel, and gradually develop the map as you go.
- don't sweat it. You don't have to detail the entire map. You don't have to know the entire setting beofre, or after start. It helps to be familiar with the basics of the region, but it works fine even if you only "see" two hexes further than your group.
The experience of exploring and "filling in" the map, discovering previously unknown sites (some they have heard of from clues, some entirely surprising when they stumble across them) tends to be a great motivation for parties, especially those who are fond of exploration and traditional adventuring for its own sake. The setting does not work so well (or so easily) for more passive people, but there are tricks that may help. |
|
kent
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 307
|
Post by kent on Nov 19, 2011 20:41:55 GMT -6
While I have respect for Geoffrey's taste and Melan's taste I believe they have got it badly wrong recommending the Necromancer edition of the Wilderlands. I find it tedious and bloated. Conley's maps are remarkable versions of the superlative originals but the magic, the genius and the inspiration of the original Judges Guild Hex descriptions are not at all evident in the later edition. Further, in the WoHF the single word entry tables for fleshing out random wilderness lairs make the head ache with awe.
Let's be clear. The original Wilderlands of High Fantasy is very special just as the DMG is special. The Necromancer edition is servicible and verbose with good maps, though the original maps are even better.
|
|
|
|
Post by thetekumelproject on Nov 20, 2011 10:45:33 GMT -6
Who drew the original maps? I once met a guy who claimed he did - and that he still had the originals, but when I started asking questions he got all evasive (it seemed to me.)
I am a bit conflicted about the maps myself. The Wilderlands of High Fantasy set is definitely the best. The later sets, especially the southernmost set, have much less detail and begin to blatantly steal names from any literary source they could get their hands on. IIRC one of the maps steals place names from Moorcock's Young Kingdoms (Elric.)
The thing I didn't like about the set was how random the descriptions were. Orc village next to Halfling village next to Goblin town, etc.
Otherwise, they are quite nice.
|
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Nov 20, 2011 22:10:46 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Nov 20, 2011 22:26:37 GMT -6
the magic, the genius and the inspiration of the original Judges Guild Hex descriptions are not at all evident in the later edition. I have to poke a bit of fun at this as the original was mostly single line stat blocks with ruins and islands having a sentence or two. To me the "magic" was the consistency of format over a vast area and Bledsaw correctly picking what to put in those stat lines. It was just enough to be useful and spark the imagination of thousands of referees. I can understand the bloated comment because the moment you start expanding those stat blocks to just a paragraph the result is the size of the boxed set. I haven't commented because the previous posters pretty said what i would have said. Look at Lenap if you like it buy the PDF. The original is good if you want to do a fair amount of work fleshing out the details. While is not the same setting, my Blackmarsh is a more concise introduction to the format that the Wilderlands uses. Even more so than the Lenap Preview. It was designed to get people started with using Wilderlands style settings. It is small enough to have the players move off that map onto an area of the Wilderlands. The PDF is free www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=89944It also has the outline of the town of Blackmarsh. Let's be clear. The original Wilderlands of High Fantasy is very special just as the DMG is special. The Necromancer edition is servicible and verbose with good maps, though the original maps are even better. I prefer the original maps over the Necromancer version. The Necromancer maps have all the same errors and misprints as the original. The originals are easier to print out than the shaded Necromancer version. On the flipside I like the Necromancer CSIO map better than the original. Due the shading and drawing skills of the cartographer a lot of details are more easily seen than the original. And I extensively proofed it to make sure it accurately depicted the original map. |
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Nov 20, 2011 22:37:37 GMT -6
Who drew the original maps? I once met a guy who claimed he did - and that he still had the originals, but when I started asking questions he got all evasive (it seemed to me.) I believe Bill Owens did, Bob Beldaw's partner. The thing I didn't like about the set was how random the descriptions were. Orc village next to Halfling village next to Goblin town, etc. Tell me about it. For the northern half of Map 12 (necromancer) I had to come up with explanation for three LG Orc villages. They were scattered geographically far enough that I couldn't get away with one incident for all of them. But all and all it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. I was able to come up a plausible setup for the two and a half maps I did. This is a link to the diagram I made of Map 8 (Necromancer) Barbarian Altanis wilderlands.batintheattic.com/map_8_overview.jpg |
|
|
|
Post by kenmeister on Nov 22, 2011 6:23:51 GMT -6
See, I want to believe what Kent has to say on this one. A few years back I acquired the Necromancer Wilderlands of High Fantasy box set along with a bunch of other items in a gaming lot for about $40. It sat on my shelf for a year or so, and I decided - this is before I went into collector frenzy mode - that I was never going to use it. I sold it for $60. Now of course it is worth like 5 times that amount. And I think I would use it; would certainly love to read it. Ugh.
However, I've got the original Judges Guild Wilderlands stuff (except for Mines of Custalcon) now.
|
|
Baron
Level 3 Conjurer
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 67
|
Post by Baron on Nov 22, 2011 16:27:10 GMT -6
In my opinion, if you've already got the originals, there's no need to invest in the Necromancer materials.
|
|
