Galactic Patrol and Star Wars

[Finarvyn]

I read the "Lensman" series by E.E. "Doc" Smith back in high school (Galactic Patrol was the first one I read, but I think it's actually the 3rd in the series) and promptly forgot about them until I was reading through JamesM's Thousand Suns RPG and I saw the inspirational reading list at the back.

So, I had to dust off the old copies and re-read. Knowing that I don't have a lot of time during the school year, I skipped ahead to re-read Galactic Patrol first and maybe I'll get to the others if I don't get sidetracked. I first encountered this series some time in the 1970's when I first started gaming, and it served as part of my inspiration for my "Space Wars" OD&D in space game that I ran back about the time of the first Star Wars movie, probably around 1977-78 or so. (Yeah, we weren't that creative in naming our campaigns back then. )

I had forgotten how much it reminds me of Star Wars with it's mystic police force (the Lensmen), lots of big starships blasting each other with hot plasma, and heroes doing the improbable just in time to save the day for humanity.

Searching e-bay I find that there are copies of GURPS Lensmen and I'm thinking of picking up a copy for reference in case I run a Thousand Suns campaign.

Seems like such a Star Wars rip-off until I remind myself that it was written in the 1950's while Star Wars was done in the 1970's. Hmmmm.

Anyone else read this series?

[James Maliszewski]

The similarity between the Lensmen and the Jedi has been noticed before, so you're not alone in seeing it. I don't know if Lucas was ever much of a reader of science fiction, but I know he was a fan of the old pulp SF serials from the 40s and 50s. Star Wars itself began life as an attempt to produce a Flash Gordon movie, morphing into its present form only once it became clear the rights to Flash Gordon were unavailable at the time.

[Finarvyn]

Yeah, I know that George said that stuff. Probably to deflect the fact that he'd cribbed notes from E.E. "Doc" Smith. :-)

And, James, it's not really fair having you put in your two cents. Your Thousand Suns rulebook is the one that inspired me to re-read Galactic Patrol. Of course you've read it!

[James Maliszewski]

Sept 6, 2009 19:05:13 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Yeah, I know that George said that stuff. Probably to deflect the fact that he'd cribbed notes from E.E. "Doc" Smith. :-)

Anything is possible. I tend not to trust much of what Lucas has to say about the origins of anything he created, since he's, to put it charitably, selective in what he remembers.

[Finarvyn]

Sept 6, 2009 20:06:56 GMT -6 James Maliszewski said:

he's, to put it charitably, selective in what he remembers.

I read somewhere that Alan Dean Foster wrote most of the paperback that became Star Wars from George's screenplay, and that his understanding at the time of the direction that George was planning sequels to go is more along the line of Splinter of the Mind's Eye. (I remember reading it at the time, and it fit my concept of the "master plan" as well.) Of course, the actual sequels are very different from this and so Splinter of the Mind's Eye looks pretty stupid in retrospect.

[Deleted]

Sept 6, 2009 21:16:27 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I read somewhere that Alan Dean Foster wrote most of the paperback that became Star Wars from George's screenplay, and that his understanding at the time of the direction that George was planning sequels to go is more along the line of Splinter of the Mind's Eye. (I remember reading it at the time, and it fit my concept of the "master plan" as well.) Of course, the actual sequels are very different from this and so Splinter of the Mind's Eye looks pretty stupid in retrospect.

According to Foster, Splinter of the Mind's Eye was going to be the low-budget sequel to Star Wars (later renamed Star Wars IV: A New Hope). If the movie didn't do that great at the box office but Lucas got the green-light for a sequel, this would have been the story shot.

Of course the film did *ahem* quite well, and Lucas went a different route.

[James Maliszewski]

Yeah, Foster was hired to write a series of novels to continue the Star Wars saga (at least as it was conceived at the time), with the understanding that these novels would be used as the basis for screenplays should the first film do well enough to justify sequels. I believe Foster was brought in quite early in the process, which explains why the one original novel that came out of this collaboration, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, feels so "off," as if it takes place in a very alternate Star Wars universe. That's because it does, having its origin in a lot of concepts and characterizations that Lucas either abandoned or reworked. I think that's why I find it such a fascinating read.

Foster, of course, wrote the novelizations for all the Star Wars novels, including the first, which was published under Lucas's name (at least at the time; it might have Foster's name on it nowadays).

[geoffrey]

Sept 7, 2009 7:14:11 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

According to Foster, Splinter of the Mind's Eye was going to be the low-budget sequel to Star Wars (later renamed Star Wars IV: A New Hope). If the movie didn't do that great at the box office but Lucas got the green-light for a sequel, this would have been the story shot.

Exactly so. Lucas never dreamed that SW would be a big success. He thought it would either lose money or break even. He was hoping for a modest success, enough to generate money for a modest sequel--Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye novel was finished before SW was released on May 25, 1977. You'll notice that the whole thing takes place on a single swamp planet, full of mists. This was to keep the budget low: single location, no expensive starship battles, and a judicious use of mist to conveniently cover any cut corners. You'll also notice that Han and Chewie aren't in it. That's because Mark Hamill (Luke) and Carrie Fisher (Leia) had signed a two-movie deal with Lucas. Harrison Ford (Han) had signed only a single movie deal, and Lucas thought it likely that Harrison Ford wouldn't be in any hypothetical sequel.

I recommend this awesome book regarding the REAL story of the origins of SW (which does indeed include the Lensmen), so at variance with much of what the multi-billionaire and revisionistic Lucas claims today:
www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/book.html


Here is a PDF of the book's first 100 pages. You'll recognize a name on the first page of the acknowledgements:
www.legacybookspress.com/Books/The%20Secret%20History%20of%20Star%20Wars%20-%20Free%20Sample.pdf

(Yes, I'm a huge fan of the 1977 Star Wars film, which I consider the finest film ever made. ESB is quite good, ROTJ is OK, and the prequels are execrable.)

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2009 9:43:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

(Yes, I'm a huge fan of the 1977 Star Wars film, which I consider the finest film ever made. ESB is quite good, ROTJ is OK, and the prequels are execrable.)

I think Star Wars (1977) is the best, too. I thought I was alone in this, most fans I know seem to prefer ESB, so thanks for saying this.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2009 9:43:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Here is a PDF of the book's first 100 pages. You'll recognize a name on the first page of the acknowledgements:

Dude! There is a fellow in the ACKs that has the same name as you! ;D

[giantbat]

Sept 7, 2009 9:43:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I recommend this awesome book regarding the REAL story of the origins of SW (which does indeed include the Lensmen), so at variance with much of what the multi-billionaire and revisionistic Lucas claims today:
www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/book.html

I just found that site for the first time about a week ago. I was initially excited by the book, but lost interest when I read that it gives the "history of all six films". How much of the text is taken up with coverage of the execrable?

[geoffrey]

Sept 7, 2009 15:09:07 GMT -6 @giantbat said:

I just found that site for the first time about a week ago. I was initially excited by the book, but lost interest when I read that it gives the "history of all six films". How much of the text is taken up with coverage of the execrable?

Of the 600 or so pages, perhaps 150 or so are devoted to the prequels. And let me assure you, the author is quite critical towards the prequels.

[coffee]

Only a quarter of the book on the prequels?

That wouldn't be because they were crap, now, would it?

And you're right about George Lucas having a selective memory. I doubt if he even remembers making "Howard the Duck" (and I kinda wish I could forget having seen it, too...)

But as far as the Lensmen books go, I only ever read the first one. I'm going to have to start trolling ebay and amazon and get the full set and read them -- I've never heard anything bad about them. (And, as I understand it, the anime they did of them was actually pretty good, although I haven't seen it myself.)

[Finarvyn]

Sept 7, 2009 9:43:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I recommend this awesome book regarding the REAL story of the origins of SW (which does indeed include the Lensmen), so at variance with much of what the multi-billionaire and revisionistic Lucas claims today:
www.secrethistoryofstarwars.com/book.html

Based on your recommendation, Geoffrey, I bought this book. I’m about 100 pages into it (skipping over some of the dry Lucus background like where he grew up…) and it’s a great book so far. I’ve had some of these theories for 30 years and nobody else seems to really buy into them, but I never had this level of documentation to back up my thoughts before.

Sept 7, 2009 9:43:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Yes, I'm a huge fan of the 1977 Star Wars film, which I consider the finest film ever made. ESB is quite good, ROTJ is OK, and the prequels are execrable.

Sept 7, 2009 9:53:18 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I think Star Wars (1977) is the best, too. I thought I was alone in this, most fans I know seem to prefer ESB, so thanks for saying this.

I agree. Not only is Star Wars my favorite of the six (I never call it “A New Hope”) but it’s one of my favorite movies of all time.

In my own “one to ten” movie rating system, the original Star Wars rates a 10. When it came out I went to see it 22 times, by far the most times I’ve ever seen a movie in the theatre. To this day, Star Wars remains the movie by which all others are compared, and when my wife asks how I liked the movie the first question I ask myself is “how did it rate compared to Star Wars?” In 30 years, only one other movie has ever ranked a 10 on my scale, and that would be the original Pirates of the Caribbean, which I saw perhaps a dozen times in the theatre.

[coffee]

Oct 11, 2009 6:23:53 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Sept 7, 2009 9:53:18 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I think Star Wars (1977) is the best, too. I thought I was alone in this, most fans I know seem to prefer ESB, so thanks for saying this.

I agree. Not only is Star Wars my favorite of the six (I never call it “A New Hope”) but it’s one of my favorite movies of all time.

I agree with you both.

I read a book a number of years ago on writing, specifically about plot. It used ESB extensively to show how well plotted and structured it was, with extensive uses of foreshadowing and parallels and that sort of thing. It enhanced my appreciation for ESB.

But Star Wars is still better. It's a visceral thrill, the good old fashioned good guys beat the bad guys story. Maybe I'm just juvenile, but that's what I want to see when I go to the movies.

I also agree about the first Pirates of the Caribbean film. I also really enjoyed The Fifth Element.

[geoffrey]

Oct 11, 2009 6:23:53 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

In 30 years, only one other movie has ever ranked a 10 on my scale, and that would be the original Pirates of the Caribbean, which I saw perhaps a dozen times in the theatre.

I've long described the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie as "Star Wars with pirates".

[thegreyelf]

Gonna step up for a moment here and offer a defense/apology.

The Star Wars prequels were not execrable. They were far from perfect, but they were also far from execrable. Indeed, I found Revenge of the Sith (excepting a few dialogue snafus and the nigh-unforgivable axing off Padme's key role in founding the rebellion) to be as epic as either episodes IV or V.

The prequels suffered from certain severe flaws, both admittedly arising from Lucas's own arrogance and "top dog syndrome."

Lucas cannot write dialogue, nor direct actors. These were the two critical flaws in the prequel films. Had Lucas remained an executive producer and farmed the writing and directing jobs off to more capable pens and bullhorns, the prequels would be lauded as highly as the original trilogy--I am convinced of this.

Why? Remove yourself from the awful dialogue and wooden acting (delivered by Academy Award-winning actors, no less) and look at the story. The Machiavellian plot woven by Palpatine is brilliant, and Order 66 was heart-wrenching. It was always seriously implausible that Vader went out and hunted down every single Jedi all by his lonesome. A sudden, unexpected betrayal by their own trusted and beloved troops was an excellent solution to the problem of the Jedi Purge.

Anakin's fall from grace was horribly demonstrated (again, see directing and dialogue) but in a grand, mythic sense was wonderfully archetypal and well-structured from a purely story sense.

Now, that being said, we didn't need Episode One. It was back story that did not need to be told (though seeing the Jedi at the height of their influence and the Republic in a golden era was neat). Episode Two should've been Episode One (albeit with less teen-aged angst and fewer "my heart is beating"/"I've been dying a little every day" lines). The events of Episode Three should have then been stretched out over two movies, enabling us to see the long, slow slide into corruption and eventual decay of the Republic. Enabling us to see the pure arrogance and overconfidence that cost the Jedi everything. Enabling us to buy into Anakin's fall by showing us things that were cut from Episode III, like the facts that the Jedi were in fact excluding him, and Palpatine was the only person who was ever remotely honest and straightforward with him.

If you ever get a chance to read the novelization for Episode III, by all means do so. It paints the final chapter in an entirely different (and preferable) palette.

I think we are also far too quick to dismiss the idea that Star Wars has always been for young boys, and we all love the original because we still see it through the eyes of the young boys we were, while we look at the prequels through adult eyes. The only evidence I have to back this up is that every little boy I know who was 5 to 8 when the prequels came out runs around pretending to be Anakin and Obi-Wan the way we pretended to be Han and Luke.

No, I disagree that the prequels were execrable. I thought they were enjoyable in a pulpy, visual, eye candy kind of way and they presented an epic and mythic story, albeit not as well as they could have under a more talented director and screenwriter.

I mean, really, can anyone defend the idea that, "But I was going to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!" and "Oh, Biggs is right, I'm never gonna get out of here!" are really less whiny than, "It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's holding me back! He's jealous!"? Or that "Governor Tarkin! I should've expected you to be holding Vader's leash; I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board," is actually well-scripted dialogue? I think not. And yet, we hold such as somehow superior to those seen in the prequel films.

Just some food for thought. I'm not looking to get into a lengthy debate on the issue--just presenting a differing point of view (and for the record; my earliest memory is of seeing Star Wars--the original--in the theater, so Star Wars has been a huge part of my life for as long as I can remember).

All that being said, I do sometimes wonder what the world would look like, had Lucas filmed his original draft of "The Star Wars," where Darth Vader wasn't a Sith, but a calculating Moff, and the grand quest was for the Jedi Bendu twins and their father, Anakin Starkiller, to find the Kaibur Crystal.

[dekelia]

Oct 11, 2009 12:49:36 GMT -6 coffee said:

Oct 11, 2009 6:23:53 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I agree. Not only is Star Wars my favorite of the six (I never call it “A New Hope”) but it’s one of my favorite movies of all time.

I agree with you both.

I knew I liked this place for a reason

I now cringe everytime I hear a "new" starwars fan tell me that ESB is the best. What it really means to me is that they *want* to like Starwars (because its cool to ), and ESB is really the only decent one with modern looking cinematography. I would agree its the best *made*, but I've now regressed to the point that Star Wars is the only one I even like (I think this just comes from Star Wars overload.) I've gotten a bit grumpy in my starwars fandom.

The first time I heard someone say ESB was the best, it was in a very well formed argument in a usenet post (on the old fan.starwars.something or other) in 1996 or so. It was practically blasphemy at the time. I thought he made some good points (though I didn't agree). At that point *nobody* thought that. look at the AFI top 100 movies from 1999. Star Wars was at 15 or so. ESB showed up on the list, but much farther down. Now, for some reason, it's like it's common knowledge that ESB is better. Really, on it's own, it's just "ok".

These feeling make me feel like a grump old man, hehe.

[harami2000]

(might as well join in the thread necromancy as I missed this one previously

Sept 6, 2009 13:27:37 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Anyone else read this series?

Interesting: my default position would be that virtually all of us have, but perhaps we're just catching the 1970s/80s fantasy revival, on average.
Pretty much everyone into gaming who picked up D&D at the start would've been familiar with the series, anyhow, since Lensman was still /the/ SF game, and SF gaming in general was very much bigger than fantasy at that time.

Sept 6, 2009 13:27:37 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Seems like such a Star Wars rip-off until I remind myself that it was written in the 1950's while Star Wars was done in the 1970's. Hmmmm.

1930s onwards, but reworked for the overarching story per notes on grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/10/partial-pictorial-history-of-elves-in-d.html when the inevitable "D&D = Tolkien" theme came up.

[makofan]

Sorry

ESB and Blade Runner are my two top sci-fi movies. Star Wars comes 5th after Alien and Terminator

[Finarvyn]

Dec 3, 2009 14:42:11 GMT -6 makofan said:

Sorry

ESB and Blade Runner are my two top sci-fi movies. Star Wars comes 5th after Alien and Terminator

No need to apologize -- we're all friends here and can certainly disagree without feeling bad about it.

1. What is ESB? (I'm sure I'll kick myself when you tell me.)

2. Blade Runner is an interesting movie, but sort of a blend of scifi and classic noir detective. It has lots of interesting elements of philosphy of humanity worth discussing, but I just didn't enjoy it as much as Star Wars becasue it didn't have that roller-coaster feel to me.

3. Alien is another interesting choice, being a blend of scifi and horror. My problem with Alien was mostly that there were too many dark and shadowy scenes where I really couldn't follow the action properly.

4. Terminator was awesome and would probably rate 9 or 9.5 on my scale. Arnold was amazing, there are fantastic action and suspense scenes.

Basically, I enjoyed all of the movies you mentioned. Star Wars was, to me, something special and magical. Probably has to do with my age when it came out (right between middle school and high school) and perhaps I wouldn't have been so mesmerized by SW if I had been older, but it was just so darned amazing and I had never seen anything like it before. Once you see that opening scene with the Star Destroyer slowly moving across the screen, generic space ship shots just aren't the same anymore. Also, I'm a big fan of movie soundtracks and SW was by far the best at that point. Again, probably just me being sentimental....

[makofan]

ESB is Empire Strikes Back

Now Empire was the first Star Wars movie I saw, and I saw it in a theatre with icy air-conditioning on a hot August day. So the opening ice planet just set the mood!

[Finarvyn]

Dec 7, 2009 14:37:20 GMT -6 makofan said:

ESB is Empire Strikes Back

See, now I'm kicking myself. Hard.

I liked Empire Strikes Back, but not as much as the original. Again, probably a function of just the right combination of my own age and that "magic moment" when Star Wars just grabbed me....

[Falconer]

The Empire Strikes Back is a fantastic movie which moves me to tears multiple times every time I watch it, and has me on the edge of my seat for the whole thing. It’s a great movie, and one hell of a sequel. However, I will give the edge to Star Wars just for the mind-boggling amount of imagination that went into it, upon which the sequel simply builds. Regards.

[makofan]

The last half hour of Star Wars still brings chills

[dekelia]

Dec 8, 2009 9:52:41 GMT -6 makofan said:

The last half hour of Star Wars still brings chills

Agreed! When Luke just says "F it, lets do this!" (i.e. We're going in. We're going in full throttle....) after all the times I've seen it, that turn of attitude still makes me want to jump up and yell "HELL YA!!!"....or something like that I'm just glad they finally released the real original a few years ago on DVD. I was sick of having to watch it on VHS and although I liked that the redid them and put them on the big screen again, it just wasn't quite the same.

[maxvale76]

Yeah, okay....I'm two and a half years late to this thread...my apologies!

First let me say that I've never read any of the Lensman books so I can't really speak to the original point.....mainly I jumped on here due to the 'Star Wars' vs. 'Empire Strikes Back' feelings...

Having been born in 1976; I can't say that I remember seeing Star Wars in the Theatres....heck, I can BARELY remember seeing Empire in the Theatres; but I DEFINITELY remember Return of the Jedi coming out when I was 7and I thought it was the GREATEST MOVIE EVER!

Later....my parents bought the movies on VHS and I watched each of them a dozen times......and over the years after that; here and there I would watch them until I got to the point that I could safely say I could quote; line for line; about 90% of all three films by memory.

From about the time I was 16 or so; I came to the conclusion that for me; Empire and Star Wars were just about equal in thier awesomeness and Return of the Jedi was a LONG way behind both. In the 20 years since....nothing has really changed my mind.

I think Empire is the 'better' movie; in terms of the story, the direction, the acting, etc., etc. I believe it is just an extremely well-done movie with the most "realistic" (I know, I know, a DANGEROUS word to use when talking about a sci-fi film in which people use Telekenesis and Fly in Hyperspace) feel of the 3 movies. You truly believe that a harsh war is being fought by the brave, but outnumbered and out-gunned Rebels against the Empire. The characters come across as less 'iconic' (the Idealistic Farm Boy; the Smuggler with a heart of gold; the plucky Princess, etc., etc.) and more 'real people' with thier interactions with each other.

On the other hand....Star Wars is, in my opinion; a more FUN movie to see...and definitely more EPIC. Watching a space station that destroys an entire world...and then a handful of pilots take it on at suicidal risk...is something that can't really be compared to much before it......maybe the biplanes attacking Kong; I guess. It's so Epic in fact; that they do it AGAIN in Return of the Jedi. (One of the major reasons why Return of the Jedi isn't really in the same league as the other two).

As for the prequels....while I find some elements interesting/ compelling; such as the Jedi Council and the manipulation of events leading to the forming of the Empire; a lot of it is just way too simplistic and badly done for my tastes.

First...as an earlier poster mentioned...the acting and the dialouge of Anakin and Padme in particular are just AWFUL. I whole heartedly agree that Lucas should NEVER have directed these films. Mor than that though; I think the entire storyline behind the Trade Federation conflict leading to the 'Clone Wars' and Anakin's swift descent to the Dark Side just flat out Ludicrous.

Now....I will again agree with the earlier poster and say that these films aren't truly 'wretched'....in fact, in my opinion; they're really not much worse than Return of the Jedi (which truly has a HORRENDOUS script itself)....but they're a FAR cry from Empire and Star Wars.

Just my two cents!

-Max

[coffee]

Got to agree with you there, Max.

Star Wars is fun. That's the long and the short of it.

I read a book once, one of the Writer's Digest series of writing books. Plot, I think, but I'm not sure.

It used ESB as the whole book, basically. Throughout the book, examples were given using ESB (as well as other stuff).

So, structurally, ESB is the more 'refined' movie.

But Star Wars is still more fun. And that's why it's still my favorite.