HeroQuest as a combat system

[Finarvyn]

I was thinking about the old MB HeroQuest game and wondered about its potential as the nucleus of an RPG.

Creatures take a number of hits in much the same way that figures in Chainmail had hits equal to hit dice number, so it seems like I could grab monsters from Chainmail as a starting point.

But instead of using Chainmail's combat system, I could use the one from HQ, which works like this:

• the attacker rolls a number of dice equal to his attack value, which is based on weapon type, to determine the number of "hits" scored.
  
• the defender rolls a number of dice equal to his defense value, which is based on armor type, to determine the number of "hits" that get cancelled out.
  
• Any uncancelled "hits" take away points from the figure's total.
  
• Then the other side gets a turn to attack and roles are reversed.

An interesting twist is that the game "cheats" in favor of the PCs and against the monsters. Both characters and monsters score a "hit" 3/6 of the time, but while a character defends 2/6 of the time the monsters only defend 1/6.

For example: Character with 3 attack rolls 3d6 and scores hit-hit-miss. Monster with 2 defends rolls defend-miss. The character scored two potential hits, but one is cancelled by the monster's defend, so one hit makes it through. The monster loses a body point (essentially takes a hit die worth of damage) and it's the monster's turn to attack.

I know that combat is a lot of fun when playing HQ, and I wonder if folks think it would be a good system as a basic RPG.

I can see that one could use hit points instead of hit dice, and each "hit" could become 1d6 of damage. This would be a lot more OD&D-like instead of assuming that all hits are equal.

Just me thinking out loud....

[kesher]

I've toyed around with something similar before, myself. I think it's totally workable, and you could certainly give monsters different attack and defense scores, too. It seems a somewhat natural extension of the ODD idea of fighting men getting as many attacks as they have levels against man-like creatures of a HD or less; if your FM is 3rd level, and fights a 5HD monster, why not have them roll their respective dice and cancel out hits until one does damage.

I'm starting to ramble, but yeah, I think it'd work well!

[Deleted]

Seems like alot of fun. Lots of dice rolling = player good times!

[bluskreem]

Seems rather similar to Dragons at Dawn to me.

[Finarvyn]

Another interesting thought about this is that I've seen a guy online that sells HeroQuest dice that he makes. What is interesting is that he sells some that are standard and others where they have different numbers of skulls and shields and the like. I'll bet the different dice types could be worked into a cool combat system.

[apparition13]

How would you handle armor? Damage reduction? Extra defense dice? Set the to hit target number?

Actually if you set the to hit number with armor (e.g. Plate 1, Chain/Scale 1-2, Hardened leather 1-3, Leather/Furs/Padding 1-4, none 1-5, [or leather/furs 1-3, none 1-4) you could then set the defense number with weapons, so some weapons would be more difficult to defend against.

By the way, how would you calculate the number of dice to roll? Say you have 5 HD, would that be 5 attack and 5 defense dice, or would you split them, say 4-1 or 2-3 or 0-5 (all out defense)?

[serleran]

The way HQ itself handles "better armor" is to provide more defense dice, so that is how, if something like this were to be introduced, I would do it too.

I imagine I would probably do the rules like this ---

The attacker rolls a number of dice equal to their attack bonus, which is determined by level. Fighters get one die per 4 levels, and start with 1 die. Magical weapons add 1 die. If the roll indicates a hit (any Skull result) counts as possible damage. This needs to be remembered. We will get to damage after checking for a successful damage-dealing hit.

The defender rolls a number of dice equal to their defense bonus, which is determined by armor and Dexterity. All characters get at least 1 die even if they have no armor or Dexterity adjustment. If the character rolls a Shield, this counts as a block and negates at 1:1 the attacker's Skull; a monster must roll the Monster to negate a Skull.

For each Skull that was not negated, the defender takes 1 damage. To this is added the Strength adjustment and any magical modifier. Characters gain 1d6 for HP, but gain additional dice as they level and at different rates (probably to a maximum around 5d6.)

[Finarvyn]

Oct 4, 2012 23:40:20 GMT -6 serleran said:

Fighters get one die per 4 levels, and start with 1 die.

Except that this may depend upon the level range for the campaign.

For example, AD&D goes up to 20th level but most of my OD&D games cap out around 8th level so a fighter would max out with only a couple of dice. So I might have to use a different "dice per X levels" scale depending upon where I expect my characters to end up.

Nice ideas, though!

[Sean Michael Kelly]

Yeah, I'm liking this convo. HeroQuest is a fun little quick system. I've often thought of doing some sort of adaptation myself even a'la Chainmail.

[serleran]

For a game that caps around 8th level, add a new hit die (the thing I like the best about a system such as this is that HD and HP are not intertwined; a hit die simply means a die used to determine successful attacks) every 2nd level. I was trying to keep the overall number of hit dice to 5, or as close as possible, because the inspiration material also has a maximum of 5 (the Genie spell card.) At 8th level, this way, a fighter armed with a magic sword would get 6 dice (1 base, +4 level advancement, +1 sword) which is awesome.

Another nice thing about a system like this, in my opinion, is that it adds a lot more flexibility to magic items. For example:

Sword of Slicing: Magic weapon which adds 1 hit die and allows the attacker to cancel one Shield rolled by the defender, as the blade can cut through any defense. If the defender does not roll any Shields, the attack deals +X damage (probably 1-5).

[owlorbs]

You could also incorporate ideas from Advanced Heroquest, which is even more RPG-like.

[Malcadon]

I have been working on this too! ;D

I found that this system goes beyond just Attacking and Defending.

When you look at the spell cards, you'll find that that the roll needed to resist a spell's effect works the same as a Defense roll (roll a d6 for each Mind Point, if any one is a 5 or 6, its a success). This system works better with Combat Dice (by rolling a White Shield), as the game set comes with more Combat Dice then red d6s, and its a better fit.

In Against the Ogre Horde (UK only), there was a rule for forcing open heavy stone doorways. You roll Combat Dice equal to the Hero's basic Attack score (in the UK rules, the basic Attack score is based on the Hero's strength instead of what weapon they start off with - with is nothing - and weapons are more about added game-effect, so even unarmed, you are still deadly), and the Hero needs to roll 2 Skulls to be successful (naturally, the Wizard - with an attack score of 1 - cannot pull off this feat, no mater how hard he tries).

When trying to figure out a way to make this system into an RPG system, I found that you have two methods of rolling, based on the above.

Active rolls need a Skull to be successful, with scores ranging typically between 1 to 4. In most cases, all you need is to roll a single Skull. 2 Skulls are for harder feats, while 3 are for extremely difficult feats. This works for stats akin to D&D abilities, like Strength and Dexterity, but you can use about anything or rename them as you please.

Save rolls need a White (or Black) Shield to be successful, with scores ranging typically between 2 to 6 (one more then above). The amount of Shields needed to succeed is the same as above. This works for stats akin to the saves in 3e D&D (Fortitude, Reflex and Willpower).

I figured you could determine you stats by grouping them into pairs, with the "save" score 1-point higher then tho "active" score. For example:

Add one point to each "active" score, and distribute 4 points among the four stats (up to 3 at the start), then add a point for the related "save" score (scores maybe raised individually, later on). Strength/Stamina Agility/Reflexes Knowledge/Willpower Charm/Luck Strength: Used for base Attack score and feats of raw strength. Stamina: Used to resist illness or poison. Add 2 to this score to determine Life Point total. Agility: Use for athletic feats like jumping and climbing, or sneaky stuff like hiding and stalking. Reflexes: Used as base Defense score (with armor), and to avoid traps and hazards (without armor). Knowledge: Used to figure out puzzles or read strange text. This also determines Spell Points, with spell casting ability. Willpower: Used to resist mind-controlling effects. Charm: Used to sway people and maintain the moral of henchmen. Luck: Maybe drawn upon to add additional dice or re-rolls. Other game effects like spell casting, thievery, and weapons limitations are determine by distributing points to Special Abilities, with extra points from taking Handicaps.

Even with eight attributes and four derived attributes, it still a simple system to work with (its not much different then Barbarians of Lemuria).

So what do you all think about this?

[serleran]

Honestly, I'm not sure many, if any, attributes are needed. Characters can simply be assigned a number of dice for that sort of thing based on race / class. But...

I think to make it truly like an original RPG, the player must dice for attribute scores, but they can be kept very low. I would probably keep the number of attributes way down. 3d6 dice are used, but the range will be from 0 - 3, since the only die roll that counts is one that comes up a Skull.

Characters will be declared untrained, skilled, or trained for combat purposes. This determines how well they attack (how many dice they get.) For resisting traps and the like, all characters get 2 dice; it takes at a Skull and a Shield to defend against it. Thief characters get extra dice for this purpose.

Strength: the roll adds to weapon damage
Toughness: the roll adds to starting HP and might be subtracted from certain damage effects

HP is just a flat roll of dice, probably 1d6 + Toughness.

[Starbeard]

Oct 18, 2012 3:49:45 GMT -6 Malcadon said:

Active rolls need a Skull to be successful, with scores ranging typically between 1 to 4. In most cases, all you need is to roll a single Skull. 2 Skulls are for harder feats, while 3 are for extremely difficult feats. This works for stats akin to D&D abilities, like Strength and Dexterity, but you can use about anything or rename them as you please.

Save rolls need a White (or Black) Shield to be successful, with scores ranging typically between 2 to 6 (one more then above). The amount of Shields needed to succeed is the same as above. This works for stats akin to the saves in 3e D&D (Fortitude, Reflex and Willpower).

I once ran a HeroQuest game for a while that went on long enough and got so heavily house ruled that it did actually become thought of as 'the HeroQuest RPG campaign'. We kept the attributes to the basic Body and Mind used in the basic game, with no additions. The way you created a character was to pick a race, then choose your Body and Mind so that they added up to 10. Having higher Body or higher Mind allowed for certain advantages, like access to spell lists or the ability to wield/wear heavier equipment.  Both were used exactly as they are in the normal game—mental and physical attacks will reduce the character's current Body and Mind, and when they reach 0, that means either death/near death (0 Body) or unconsciousness/madness (0 Mind).

The Save category is used in HQ as an Active category in some respects, as well, such as when you're trying to jump over a pit, and I think there may be at least one spell card that has a positive result for each black shield rolled, but I may be remembering that incorrectly.  At any rate, we typically divided them between uncontested actions and contested actions.  Uncontested actions required rolling the character's current Body or Mind and getting a number of black shields (usually 1, but 2-3 for difficult tasks), and contested actions being handled more or less like combat.

I'm positive I have a folder of the RPG house rules we used lying around here somewhere, I should hunt them down and dust them off for this thread.  One thing I do remember, though, was that Body and Mind each had 2 types of associated actions: Strength and Agility for Body, and Willpower and Intelligence for Mind.  Each character had to pick one for each attribute as a 'focus': rolling tests within that action-type allowed the character to roll their current Body/Mind, while actions in the other category required rolling at 1/2 current Body/Mind.  That way the Wizard would only be 1/4 as strong as the Barbarian, but about as agile, and so forth.