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Post by Zulgyan on Jun 4, 2008 22:08:42 GMT -6
Whatever happened to Falconer?
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 27, 2009 22:05:57 GMT -6
This thread has been around for a long time without a "bump" to the top.
Also, Fellowship of the Ring was on TV tonight so I am once again Middle-earth inspired.
I'd be interested in knowing how Falconer's OD&D Middle-earth game was progressing and what additional tweaks got put into the rules. Also, I believe that Falconer made mention of creating a player's handout rather than allowing them access to the rulebooks, and I'd be interested in knowing how this has turned out.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 1, 2009 17:37:15 GMT -6
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Post by Falconer on Mar 1, 2009 23:57:15 GMT -6
Hey, nothing new lately. I have run a session in a homebrew Moria, and one session using the Holmes intro dungeon. Since they were more-or-less one-shots, I was more than happy to simply pass out copies of Men & Magic (with "hobbits") and play it basically by the book. The "Cleric to Ranger" change worked seamlessly, and eliminating Alignment was the only other significant change to the vanilla rules (if you can call that significant).
It probably helped that it was low level play, but I found the flavor of the game to be very much in harmony with Tolkien.
It probably wasn't even necessary for them to have copies of M&M, since I walked everyone through character creation and what dice to roll otherwise. But I think it makes for a good read for someone who is curious about the game and might be waiting while I help someone else. The writing is just dripping with excitement and magic, you know? Gets 'em in the spirit. And, as one newbie commented, "I thought D&D was going to be all weird, but this? I get it! It's The Hobbit and Greek Mythology..."
I'd like to start a real campaign soon, but I just moved and I have been working on forming a new group of friends and grooming them for D&D. So far, I've got them hooked on board gaming, so that's a step in the right direction... :-)
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Post by codeman123 on Mar 29, 2009 0:55:57 GMT -6
I just now stumbled upon this thread tonight but have seriously considered running a lotr game using the lbb. Thanks for the inspiration even more falconer really like your ideas!
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Post by Falconer on Apr 6, 2009 19:51:54 GMT -6
Unless I've missed it, there doesn't seem to be much game-mechanical incentive to play a "plain old" fighter instead of your modified cleric/ranger. In many groups I've seen, the party would probably be about 90% the latter. Sorry I’m responding to such an old post, but lately my friends have been bombarding me with requests to play D&D, so I’m getting back into it. First of all, it’s not a modified cleric/ranger. In game-mechanical terms, it’s 99% the OD&D Cleric. That 1% change is that swords are permitted. (Not arrows or axes or halberds. Swords are the sole exception to the regular Cleric weapon rules.) That said, I think you’re still correct. In thematic terms, people are going to ask themselves, why would I want to play a Boromir or a Bard when I could play an Aragorn? Or a Gandalf or a Bilbo or a Glorfindel or a Gimli or a Beorn? Even girls who might like the idea of playing an Eowyn would still prefer a Lúthien any day. I think the same is true for most players of D&D. Human Fighter is just the most vanilla and non-fantastic option available. Nevertheless, there have always been and always will be players who enjoy it. Maybe they are new and want to keep it simple; maybe they just don’t care for the character sheet aspect of the game and just want to be immersed in the adventure; or maybe they like the respect they get from the more “interesting” folks around the table, due to the fact that, from “Veteran” to “Lord”, encounter after encounter, they quite simply give and take by far the most damage! Finally, let me just say that “humanocentrism” is simply not a feature of Middle-earth. So I don’t find the idea of a party without Warriors to be a problem! Hope that answers your question. :-) Regards.
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Post by Falconer on May 7, 2009 19:06:33 GMT -6
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Post by Zulgyan on May 7, 2009 20:21:38 GMT -6
High quality stuff... better than any of the LOTR games out there, and I own both MERP and Decipher's version. I'm a bit tired with Tolkienish fantasy, but this is a gust of fresh air.
I hope you can complete the rest sometime!
Have an EXALT.
EDIT to add some more comments: I feel a pure fighter or even archer type of elf would be a nice addition for players who want to play a Legolas-type character. And not all elf soldiers cast spells in the battles.
Some special abilities that add color and don't mess with the overall game could be nice: such as the ability of some dwarves to light up a fire under very unfavorable conditions.
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Post by Falconer on May 7, 2009 21:25:16 GMT -6
Thanks, I appreciate all your comments! Yes, the thing about Dwarves lighting fires is an excellent example, and I'm sure we can come up with lots more. You can obviously see I spent a while on Beornings and then basically ran out of time and sped through the rest, heh! Still, I think it is a good start.
With Elves, I agree that straight Fighter should be an option, however this is made unattractive by the level limit. My thinking is that Legolas, although operating mainly as a Fighter and you don't see him "casting spells", still displays uncanny, otherworldly abilities, and that might as well be portrayed as multiclassed with Magic-User.
There's only so much I'm willing to write down in a "rules" document, but basically, as a referee it's incredibly easy to control which spells a character learns, for example. Or to let the character progress solely as Fighter till he hits his limit, and then at that point let him begin to progress as a Magic-User. I have no problem with that at all, and it won't break the game.
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Post by Zulgyan on May 7, 2009 21:47:57 GMT -6
Maybe if the elf is only devoted to a fighter or archer class, he can level up to a higher level. Say, 7 o 8?
It is true that Legolas indeed does some impressive feats that could be "spells". ¿Or maybe he had rolled very high on stats, say DEX 17, and played by a very skillful player? Or maybe the referee can deliver a more spectacular description of it's actions, while mechanics remain the same?
Elves could also move at 15'', as per Chainmail, to reflect their higher speed and grace.
It might be interesting to enable high level dwarves to craft magic weapons and some other items, using basically the normal rules of the magic-users from OD&D, maybe some minor tweaks. It looks more fun than keeping it "NPC dwarf" only.
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Post by Zulgyan on May 7, 2009 22:21:18 GMT -6
"Elves have the ability of moving silently and are nearly invisible in their gray-green cloaks (M&T p. 16). When invisible Elves (and Fairies) cannot attack — or be attacked unless located by an enemy with the special ability to detect hidden or invisible troops — but they can become visible and attack during the same turn (Chainmail p. 28)".
In OD&D, while hobbits hide in shadows, elf hiding seems to be even superior, no necessarily just in shadows.
In LOTR, Frodo (and Sam?) is gifted with an elven cloak, so in the story and in the game, that can mean that now, in addition to his hobbit hiding ability, he can now hide in the superior fashion of the elves, when using the cloak. So they cloak to him is a meaningful advantage.
I know you want to keep the game within The Hobbit paradigm, but this can be a small detail from LOTR that does not alter the H world and is a nice addition from the game perspective; an interesting item for a hobbit to get!
On another note, I would allow Rangers to use arrows, why not?
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Post by Falconer on May 8, 2009 1:48:19 GMT -6
Agreed, in Norse Mythology and in Tolkien, THE big thing about Dwarves is that they are great at creating magic items, especially but not limited to weapons. I'm not sure how I like it as part of the D&D game, but it can't be overlooked. That's their magic.
Regarding the elven cloaks, I see your point, but you're kind of mixing ideas. Yes, if you're facing Elves as "monsters" in D&D or as an army in Chainmail--say a patrol from Lothlorien--then it's fair to say they have that "ability" automatically. But an Elf PC has to actually acquire the item, and so starts out on even footing with a Hobbit PC in that regard. Remember that Legolas got an elven cloak at the same time that Frodo and the rest did.
As for Rangers, they are just the Cleric class re-themed. Allowing them swords is unavoidable. It may be unavoidable to allow arrows as well, but I'm worried that would make them too powerful. Aragorn didn't use arrows, if I recall correctly, but I seem to recall that Faramir's rangers did. Hmm...
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Post by Zulgyan on May 8, 2009 2:14:36 GMT -6
You are right about elven cloaks, in fact, a while after posting I was starting to reconsider my post.
I know from following your posts that Ranger is the Cleric re-themed. Maybe you can give the Ranger access to arrows, and dwarves magic item creation, but improve warrior hit dice to compensate.
Just some quick ideas.
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Post by thegreyelf on May 8, 2009 10:55:11 GMT -6
I have to disagree about Rangers being re-themed clerics. The only ranger we see in LotR with healing abilities is Aragorn, and his arguably comes from being raised amongst the Elves. Certainly Faramir and his band (who are pretty clearly Rangers, if not Dunedain) don't have it. I think the intent to make Rangers Fighting-Men is clear in the original rules. I'd model Aragorn's healing abilities by making him a special case who was allowed two levels of Cleric, granting minor healing and undead-affecting powers.
Alternately, create Dunedain as a race, Men in all respects but longer-lived and with healing magic as you described above, using Athelas and natural poultices. Call the ability "Hands of the Healer." In all other respects, Dunedain advance as Fighting-Men.
Just my two cents. The idea of Rangers as re-themed clerics just doesn't sit right with me.
Honestly, were I to do Middle-Earth, it'd be Magic-Users who went away, and Wizards would be Clerics. This seems more in keeping with the feel of Wizards in Tolkien to me.
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Post by Falconer on May 8, 2009 13:51:16 GMT -6
Aragorn's healing ability comes from his use of Athelas which is a skill passed down amongst the northern Dunedain. As the book progresses, his healing skill progresses. The OD&D Cleric class has at 1st level, no spells. At 2nd level, 1 first level spell. At 3rd level, 2 first level spells. This is not at odds with what I see Aragorn doing. Read the rest of this thread for more info, as it has been discussed at length.
The southern Dunedain obviously forgot how to use Athelas but Tolkien stresses that Faramir's rangers pray to the West, almost painting them as a religious order, which is interesting. In any case, the Ranger PC class in my campaign is based specifically upon Aragorn. He is the "Ranger PC" in the books. Any Ranger PC in my game has the potential to be like him.
It's like, you wouldn't have a Star Wars campaign and tell the players they couldn't be leaning to be a Jedi, that Luke was a special case. Well, some GMs do, but I wouldn't.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 9, 2009 6:09:06 GMT -6
Falconer, when I request a download link I get one but then when I click on the download butten I get a "Forbidden - You do not have access to ...." message. :-(
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Post by Falconer on May 9, 2009 13:23:59 GMT -6
Strange. It still works for me. Anyway, I emailed it to you.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 9, 2009 18:47:11 GMT -6
Thanks. Tried it 5 times with no success, but I got your e-mail. :-)
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Post by thegreyelf on May 11, 2009 8:31:44 GMT -6
No, I absolutely wouldn't forbid characters from being Rangers. I just don't agree with them being clerics with swords, just because Aragorn has a healing ability (which comes more from his personal destiny as the returned King--the hands of a king are the hands of a healer and all that). When does he ever, for example, cast Continual Light? Or Bless?
I have read the whole thread and I think you've done a fantastic job overall. It's just this one area that rankles me a bit. It just seems somehow not right, but that's just my personal feeling on the matter.
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Post by Falconer on May 11, 2009 21:33:46 GMT -6
Well, luckily, it only affects my own campaign. ;-)
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Post by Falconer on Jun 11, 2010 21:20:55 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 16:16:01 GMT -6
Just saw this thread, I posted this in another thread but figured it would be best posted here. I hope this has not already been asked.
I am sure this has been covered many times before here but I have read and read and still need to find answers to questions that I have yet to find here so humor me folks. I am currently trying to put together a Middle Earth campaign but there are so many things that are unclear and/or unsure of and I need to find answers so this is one of the better places to get these answers. I am an old schooler, I run 1ed in all my games and Unearth Arcana (1.5) so everything I ask, I am asking in the old school rules format.
Magic use in Middle Earth: here we go .... I have read so many arguments on ME magic use being minor and how some say it is ok to use it normally. I agree, we never really see Wizards in the movies or books and those few we do see really do not cast high end spells, most seem smaller type spells such as cantrips etc. I can agree on this look but then the questions that pop up are ..... I see Magical items "everywhere" and in D&D magical items are created by Magic Users and the higher level that Magic User is the more powerful magical items he can create. Falling back on Wizards not being that "all powerful" how are these items being created?
Some might say Elves create the items because Elves are the magical race of ME, ok sure but I will ask again if these Wizards are not all powerful, how are these magical items being created? Dwarves as well create magic items, mostly armor, but without Wizards how are they created? I am not (all knowing) of Middle Earth but this is confusing me to no end.
Wizard spell casting ..... could spells that are used be set up as Cantrips? I never see them cast any "serious" spells, except for a Fireball looking spell which could simply be a power of the Staff they wielded. Magic use just seems minor in ME so Cantrips seem to fit well for this, which would explain other people casting magical appearing spells. Maybe Cantrips are what I could use for spell casting classes and then larger spells could simply be from magic items maybe? Maybe I didnt ramble much here .........
Healing Middle Earth: I understand Clerics do not exist but yet I see spell casting being done that HEALS other people. Healing is a divine ability of casting yet this aspect is not in ME "worshiping Gods" etc etc so what type magic is this that is actually healing people? Arwen healed Frodo before she headed to Rivendale. Aragorn healed in the movies .... both appeared to be speaking words of a spell, so what type of healing is this. Gandalf healed as well, so all kinds of healing is done yet we have no Clerics. I could use some explaining on this if possible.
Classes: Myself and a few friends were at work today discussing classes in ME that were playable by players. Now understand that I have pretty much everything in PDF format on Middle Earth RPG but have yet to really read anything because I am trying to get a grasp of things first before plunging into it. Possible classes I see are ...........
Burglar - Hobbit Races easily. I would say this could be Hobbit only? Seems like I read in a Dragon Magazine of the actual Burglar class being written up?
Thief - standard generic class that is easily added for any race.
Assassin - Players will not have access to this since it would be evil I am sure.
Ranger - Would need to be slightly modified I am sure but could work minus the spell casting as a Cleric type unless it should be allowed and said the clerical type powers come from nature?
Warrior/Fighter - No need explaining on this
Cavalier - Basically this could be about what is in Unearthed Arcana from 1.5 ed. I think this would fit in fine in ME.
Alchemist - This was spoken about today since there was a write up in an old old old Dragon Magazine about an actual Alchemist class which could be used as a sub class, treated as a multiclass but could easily fit in as a nature type healing class brewing potions etc etc.Bard - Not sure how this would work
Druid - Are there Druids in ME and if so could these be added as a class?
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Something else I was thinking about for adapting as a class are back in 2nd edition that had these handbooks such as Rangers Handbook, Elven Handbook etc etc that had kits in them like Blade Singer (possible Elven class), Beast Master or something like that, anyways thought about adapting some of these as well if they fit the ME theme.
What other ME classes are there for players that I might be missing?
Anyways this is enough for my initial question thread. I am sure I will add more later on.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 18:33:24 GMT -6
Assassin - Players will not have access to this since it would be evil I am sure. Actually, this class would work nicely as Lawful Neutral. In other words, they are like a machine: you put gold pieces in the machine and give it a target and the machine doesn't stop until it or the target is destroyed. There would be strict laws, of course, regarding the use of assassins in such a society. On the flip side, high level assassins might be VIPs in their social milieus and wield quite a bit of influence. And who, in their right mind, would anger the Grandfather of Assassins? Just one possibility (of many, I'm certain) of having non-evil assassins.
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Post by scottenkainen on May 2, 2013 5:23:37 GMT -6
You don't need to modify the Ranger -- as originally written, it was already tailored to play just like Aragorn.
Consider dumping both the Cleric and Magic-User classes entirely and replacing them both with the Druid. The spell list for druids fits Middle Earth better and you don't have to worry about the god problem.
~Scott "will run a Middle Earth campaign someday" Casper
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