norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Feb 26, 2011 11:04:17 GMT -6
 I don't know if anyone here has a copy of this about, but it's an excellent little game; Reaper, Fantasy Wargame Rules by Richard Halliwell & Richard Priestly. Specifically the second edition published in 1981. It's an obvious predecessor to the Warhammer game, particularly obvious in the way that the combat works (although it uses percentiles, rather than d6), the somewhat odd humour (Fat Corgis with a SV of 1000 are in the list of monstrous creatures...) and of course both Halliwell and Priestly were involved in Warhammer. The most fascinating part of this otherwise interesting but fairly standard game is the extensive magic system. As it says in the book, "it is fair to say that these are not magical rules at all, but just a costing system". The rules for casting magic are very simple, involving rolling on a simple chart. But almost any spell you can imagine can be created and costed in a balanced fashion. In a way, you could consider them as an extremely old school Ars Magica. Obviously, this is a roleplaying board, and these are wargame rules. However it's obvious throughout the book that the designers intended them to be used in a roleplaying game as well. There are references everywhere to using it for roleplaying, but as common for the time no real advice on using it such. So I've been having a poke about with it to see if I can come up with a workable roleplaying system for it if anyone's interested. I only have bits of it so far, so suggestions and additions would be definitely appreciated. It's a shame that the book is so difficult to find. It really is worth hunting down if you can. I'd be willing to scan it in, but I guess the legality of this is a bit dodgy even though the guys in question are unlikely to care. Anyway, if people don't mind me multiple posting I'll add here what I've got, seperated into appropriate sections. |
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norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Feb 26, 2011 11:33:50 GMT -6
You will probably find obvious similarities to bits of both D&D and the original Warhammer. I know they're there. But I wanted something that felt appropriate.
A character consists of 5 Primary Attributes not used directly in the Reaper rules, and a couple of other attributes partially derived from these that are.
First of all roll 3d6 5 times and assign them in order to the following Primary Attributes:
Might
Skill
Intellect
Charisma
Luck
High or low scores in these attributes may give you bonuses or penalties. A score of 6 or less will give a -1 or -5% penalty, 15 or more will give a bonus of +1 or +5% bonus. We'll come to what these affect in a moment.
Other Attributes you will need to know are Strength Value (SV), Ability Factor (AF); and for Magic Using characters Magical Ability (MA) and Constitution Points (CON).
Strength Value will depend on race, the charts in Reaper will give you more choice but for the basics: Elves 7, Humans/Dwarves 6 and Halflings 3. This can be modified up or down 1 by your Might Bonus, and is increased by experience.
Ability Factor will begin at -5%. This can be increased or decreased 5% by your Skill score, and is increased by experience or by Skills.
Magical Ability is gained if your character has an intellect of 15 or greater, and begins at grade A. If you are willing to reduce your SV by 1 and your AF by 5% you may gain a Magical Ability Grade (i.e. from nothing to A, from A to B), but this may be done once only.
A character with Magical Ability has a CON of Might+7.
A character also has a number of Skills, 1d4 to be precise. These can be generated on a chart to follow in a bit.
A Magic Using character also begins play with one spell, created using the Reaper rules, or chosen from any precreated ones. Additional ones can be gained in play, researched or gained at the start of play through Skills.
Next up: Skills and how to use them.
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Post by harami2000 on Feb 26, 2011 15:17:11 GMT -6
It's a shame that the book is so difficult to find. It really is worth hunting down if you can. I'd be willing to scan it in, but I guess the legality of this is a bit dodgy even though the guys in question are unlikely to care. The 1981 edition is relatively common and cheaply sourced: the 1978 edition is rather more difficult to find. I'd personally not work on the presumption that any author automatically OKs illegal copying and distribution of their work. Obviously, this is a roleplaying board, and these are wargame rules. However it's obvious throughout the book that the designers intended them to be used in a roleplaying game as well. There are references everywhere to using it for roleplaying, but as common for the time no real advice on using it such. Guidance on how to "roleplay" is pretty thin in OD&D, of course, and judging by the current DF poll the majority of people are closer to the "wargaming" end than the "roleplaying" end of any arbitrary and hypothetical scale than they might realise, if one wishes to substitute such labels.  Keep on going, thank you.  |
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norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Feb 26, 2011 20:00:28 GMT -6
The 1981 edition is relatively common and cheaply sourced: the 1978 edition is rather more difficult to find. I'd personally not work on the presumption that any author automatically OKs illegal copying and distribution of their work. Hence the "but" and the "unlikely", no exact statements anywhere. It actually took me quite a long time to track down a copy. The price wasn't a problem, it was finding it. I finally got it for 50p at a Bring and Buy at the Penarth Crusade wargames show. I just think it's a shame that things like this aren't more accessible for those that are interested. I'd be quite happy to pay the original authors for a scanned pdf of any number of out of print items. Perhaps (just perhaps, I'm pretty sure it would work out to be infeasible) it would be an idea to approach the authors of such items for permission to have out of print roleplaying and war games scanned and uploaded. A sort of rpgnow or similar specifically for out of print items, with proceeds going to the authors. Likely infeasible as I say, but it would be nice. Guidance on how to "roleplay" is pretty thin in OD&D, of course, and judging by the current DF poll the majority of people are closer to the "wargaming" end than the "roleplaying" end of any arbitrary and hypothetical scale than they might realise, if one wishes to substitute such labels. Aye, I think you're right there. Personally, although I can appreciate and often play games that are decidedly nowhere near wargames (I learnt to gamesmaster by running Everway, I don't think you could ever accuse that of being a wargame), I often have a preference for roleplaying games that have a wargaming element to them. Preferably a proper wargame to a 'miniatures' game (I do run a 4th edition game, but I think of it's combat system as being more of a cardgame than really having any wargame elements to it). Which is why I love the original Warhammer for example, and why I like 0e d&d. Although I prefer the combat to be quick (I never really consider it the point of an rpg), I always like to have the possibility of using it in epic battles when appropriate. I'm a wargamer as well, so I guess I just like to combine the two when I can. Keep on going, thank you. Will do! I had to go to work (two jobs, bit of a bugger) so wasn't able to get the next bit up. Will put it up tomorrow afternoon, well later today now I guess. Feel free to chip in with suggestions if you have any. This is all stuff anyone could knock together, I just thought I'd do it as I couldn't see anything on record anywhere. |
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Post by harami2000 on Feb 26, 2011 21:28:33 GMT -6
Perhaps (just perhaps, I'm pretty sure it would work out to be infeasible) it would be an idea to approach the authors of such items for permission to have out of print roleplaying and war games scanned and uploaded. A sort of rpgnow or similar specifically for out of print items, with proceeds going to the authors. Likely infeasible as I say, but it would be nice. It would, indeed, for those who wished that. Aye, I think you're right there. Personally, although I can appreciate and often play games that are decidedly nowhere near wargames (I learnt to gamesmaster by running Everway, I don't think you could ever accuse that of being a wargame), I often have a preference for roleplaying games that have a wargaming element to them. Preferably a proper wargame to a 'miniatures' game... That way around is easier to get past the RPG "censors" who still seem to be not at all keen about the idea that a "wargame" (miniatures-based or otherwise) may also have the potential to be a "roleplaying" game, by whatever definition. Definitely need to knock down some of those artificial (even accidental) walls since there are many benefits that can be garnered from utilising a range of approaches on different scales/layers rather than just gaming within a single relatively narrow, boxed-off conceptual framework.... Aside from that, there's also the question of how many (cliched?) "RPG elements" that are actually /required/ to be "bolted on" to make something a "RPG", rather than leaving that up to the players in a relatively loose rules structure (older UK-side approach, that one). aside: By luck, I just chanced on a recent interview including Rick Priestley that you may find of interest for backstory. The comment re. "Gary Gygax and his crew in America had been doing that for years already" gets a wry smile since Curtis, Colwill and Blake were in /that/ town well before the Lake Geneva crew and TSR stole /their/ ideas. History gets messier the deeper you dig... ask any archaeologist? Although I prefer the combat to be quick (I never really consider it the point of an rpg), I always like to have the possibility of using it in epic battles when appropriate. I'm a wargamer as well, so I guess I just like to combine the two when I can. Are you in on Chris's multi-layered worldgame-in-progress, yet? => hillcantons.blogspot.com/search?q=worldgameKeep on going, thank you. Will do! I had to go to work (two jobs, bit of a bugger) so wasn't able to get the next bit up. Will put it up tomorrow afternoon, well later today now I guess. Feel free to chip in with suggestions if you have any. This is all stuff anyone could knock together, I just thought I'd do it as I couldn't see anything on record anywhere. Hoping that there are others also in a position to do so since "up to the eyeballs in work" seems to be a common theme, sadly, and February/March is normally the calm before the storm here. Not this year... Anyhow; until thoughts and ideas are posted/shared, they can't be discussed/used/built upon by others, either now or later. Cheers & Have fun, David. p.s. It might be an idea to embolden, color or otherwise highlight your rules posts to distinguish those from the noise/discussion from over here, sorry! |
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norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Feb 27, 2011 10:01:37 GMT -6
That way around is easier to get past the RPG "censors" who still seem to be not at all keen about the idea that a "wargame" (miniatures-based or otherwise) may also have the potential to be a "roleplaying" game, by whatever definition. Definitely need to knock down some of those artificial (even accidental) walls since there are many benefits that can be garnered from utilising a range of approaches on different scales/layers rather than just gaming within a single relatively narrow, boxed-off conceptual framework.... Aside from that, there's also the question of how many (cliched?) "RPG elements" that are actually /required/ to be "bolted on" to make something a "RPG", rather than leaving that up to the players in a relatively loose rules structure (older UK-side approach, that one). Almost any wargame can become a roleplaying game. I had a post here somewhere about using Hordes of the Things in place of Chainmail for D&D games. Or it might have been on the Swords & Wizardry forum. A relatively loose structure is what I'm looking for here. Basically any complication would be coming in the form of charts and shiny things rather than rules. There's almost nothing you need to add to a wargame to make it a roleplaying game; in fact the best wargames I've played have been the classic umpired sort where the players are each given a briefing and a character. I played in an excellent one set in colonial Sudan with about 8 or so players, as Major Smythe in charge of the Artillery Train. Lots of politicking, backstabbing and all sorts. Especially in the end game when all the British players were finding ways to sabotage their colleagues so they'd take the blame for failure. I was the scapegoat. Made the mistake of trusting the fellow supposed to be providing escort for my column. He went off to "investigate a report", my artillery train got ambushed, and I was left trying to explain why I hadn't been prepared... At the end of the day, a roleplaying game is just a game where people pretend to be someone else and collectively create a story. You need nothing else around that. But it's all about finding tools that make this easier to do; crutches as it were, for our naturally atrophied creativity. So all I intend to add to this particular item is the basic crutches: character creation, improving your character, and some useful charts for treasure and things. And possibly an adventure inspiration system. I like to add those to almost everything I work on. I'm still torn on whether or not to put a universal Other Task system in. I have one ready here that uses percentile pairs (to fit in with the rest of the game), but I'm not sure whether a universal one feels right or not. Tunnels & Trolls had one, and there's only one other rpg more old school than that, but that was written coming from a background in board games rather than a background in wargames. aside: By luck, I just chanced on a recent interview including Rick Priestley that you may find of interest for backstory. The comment re. "Gary Gygax and his crew in America had been doing that for years already" gets a wry smile since Curtis, Colwill and Blake were in /that/ town well before the Lake Geneva crew and TSR stole /their/ ideas. History gets messier the deeper you dig... ask any archaeologist? Very interesting! Nope, thanks for the pointer, looks rather interesting! Don't know if I can commit to the time though. p.s. It might be an idea to embolden, color or otherwise highlight your rules posts to distinguish those from the noise/discussion from over here, sorry! Good plan, will do! |
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norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Feb 27, 2011 10:43:38 GMT -6
Skills and How to Use Them
A starting character will begin with a number of skills. These could be chosen from the following list, or rolls could be made on a chart. I'm currently fiddling with a chart that looks like the bastard son of the RuneQuest and the Traveller tables.
Some basic skills follow below. These are ones that alongside any standard skill abilities also interact with the Reaper rules somehow.
Soldier: +5% AF. Morale Value C (if relevant). Organisation: Organised. Will know how to look after their arms and armour.
Veteran: Pre-requisite Soldier. +5% AF. Morale Value B. Organisation: Drilled.
Household Guard: Pre-requisite Veteran. +5% AF. Morale Value A.
Officer: Gain a random Leadership Factor, as given in Reaper.
Research Assistant: Gain a spell, either created or chosen from existing spells.
Sailor: Can find work on any ship. Can potentially also sail small craft.
Mate: Pre-requisite Sailor. Can find higher paid work on some ships, and exert influence over it's crew.
Pilot: Can navigate any ship. Will likely have own book of charts. Can certainly sail small craft.
Captain: Can command any ship. Gain a random leadership factor. Can certainly sail small craft.
Any other Trade based Skills can be chosen such as Actor, Apothecary, Hunter, Pickpocket, Blacksmith, Potman, Charcoal Burner or Transvestite. These will allow a player to attempt Task Rolls relevant to their areas of expertise, as do the skills above. A particular Trade Based Skill may be taken more than once, each rank making you better at that job.
Using Skills (Task Rolls)
A possible, as yet untested, system.
When attempting to do something covered by one of your skills, you will make a roll on the Percentage Chance of Spell Working Chart. To use this chart in this way you will have to first grade all of your Primary Attributes. A 3 becomes an A, an 18 becomes a P, and all else between can be figured out from that.
Cross referencing the Attribute Rank with the Difficulty Points (as assigned by the GM, we'll come to that in a bit) gives the percentage chance of the task succeeding. Each Skill Rank above the first will increase your Attribute Rank by one level for this purpose.
Assigning Difficulty Points
As a rough guide:
1 or 2 - Easy
3 or 4 - Moderate
5 or 6 - Difficult
7 or 8 - Extremely Difficult
9 or 10 - Legendary
11 or more - You're just being a git.
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norse
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
And it's cold, so cold at the Edge of Time.
Posts: 233
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Post by norse on Feb 27, 2011 11:11:48 GMT -6
Getting Better at Stuff: Experience Points and What They Do
There are two types of Experience Points (XP): Combat Experience (CXP) and Magic Experience (MXP).
Every time you beat an opponent you gain a number of CXP equal to their Strength Value. When your CXP equals your current SV, you lose all your CXP and gain 1 SV and 1d6 Ability Factors.
Every time you cast a spell, you gain a number of MXP equal to the Difficulty Points of the spell. When you reach the appropriate number of MXP on the chart below, your Magical Ability Grade will go up appropriately.
0 - A 169 - N
7 - B 189 - O
15 - C 210 - P
24 - D 232 - Q
34 - E 255- R
45 - F 279 - S
57 - G 304 - T
70 - H 330 - U
84 - I 357 - V
99 - J 385 - W
115 - K 414 - X
132 - L 444 - Y
150 - M 475 - Z
Spells cast solely as practice (i.e. not cast for any meaningful purpose, or if the player is taking the proverbial) gain only half their DP in MXP.
Note that if your character started at Rank B they still do not begin the game with any MXP and thus still need to gain 15 MXP in game to reach rank C. This is some natural ability which will greatly assist them to begin with but will hamper their initial willingness to learn.
Magical Research: Creating New Spells
Create the spell as per the rules in Reaper. The Magic User in question will then have to spend 1 week and 100 silver per Difficulty Point of the spell researching it. At the end of that period, the GamesMaster will make a Casting Throw for the Magic User to see if it was successful or not. If failed the spell will work differently, the GM will alter the spell according to the rules in Reaper making sure to remain at the same DP, or might not work at all if the chances of success were low. Regardless, the player will not know until they try to cast it.
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