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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 22, 2007 9:09:58 GMT -6
Cavaliers and Roundheads Rules for English Civil War Miniatures War Games Perrin & Gygax
Contents: The Turn Movement Fire Melee Morale Miscellaneous Rules Optional Rules 1:20 Organization and Historical Notes Notes on Flags and Uniforms Three Major Battles Glossary of Artillery Names Bibliography
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Stonegiant
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
100% in Liar
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Post by Stonegiant on Nov 23, 2007 18:58:04 GMT -6
Are these rules in the same vein as the other TSR minatures? I have been doing English Civil War re-enactments since 1990 (I am a Roundhead with John Hamdens Regiment of foote, pikeman). I have been curious about these rules for some time.
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 23, 2007 21:46:06 GMT -6
Yup. It seems like most of TSR's miniatures rules back then were pretty similar. I can't recall anything really remarkable about them, but if anything from the table of contents really grabs you I'd be happy to address that section of the rules.
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 26, 2007 12:52:24 GMT -6
As a historical footnote, I believe this booklet was Tactical Studies Rules' first release, and that it preceded D&D because the latter, as a 3-volume boxed set, would've been more expensive to produce and they needed to raise more money first (which they eventually got, if I've got my history straight, from the brothers Blume).
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Post by grodog on Dec 8, 2007 21:39:05 GMT -6
You're spot-on, Trent, that C&R was the first TSR publication, though I think that the Blooms didn't get deeply involved as majority owners until after Don Kaye died, which wasn't until after OD&D was first published.
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Post by foster1941 on Dec 9, 2007 16:38:58 GMT -6
If I've got my TSR history correct (which is a big if) the original partnership in 1973 was 50% Gygax and 50% Kaye. In order to raise cash for the publication of D&D they brought in the Blumes as minority shareholders so it became 40% Gygax, 40% Kaye, 10% Brian Blume, 10% Kevin Blume. When Don Kaye died in early 1975 the Blumes convinced his widow to sell his share directly to them, leaving the ownership 40% Gygax, 30% B. Blume, 30% K. Blume, and the rest is history...
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Post by grodog on Dec 10, 2007 19:18:05 GMT -6
From some research Paul Stormberg has been doing, I think there's an interim step or two, but I think it basically boils down to what you posted. Alas/unfortunately/lamentations of great sorrow/etc.
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Post by stonetoflesh on Dec 17, 2007 23:13:42 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity... Would the C&R rules work equally well for other military battles of the time, i.e. the Thirty Years' War?
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 19, 2007 21:46:15 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity... Would the C&R rules work equally well for other military battles of the time.. I don't see why they wouldn't. C&R seems "generic" enough in the same way that Chainmail is somewhat generic and not aimed at one specific battle or army. The only thing is that you would have to come up with stats for the military units from other armies, because I don't remember seeing them.
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Post by garish on Dec 2, 2008 17:21:47 GMT -6
C&R is a very playable set of rules for ECW. I modified the troop types last year to add Croats and Finnish fast cavalry for the Thirty Years War, with good results. Another good set of "Old School" rules for the period are Bill Protz's "Wargamers Guide to the English Civil War" (1973), available from www.oldregimerules.com
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Post by rick krebs on Mar 31, 2009 10:43:13 GMT -6
It always seemed that C&R was out of print after the success of D&D. We used them as a starting point with heavily playtested "homebrew" rules and further augmented with Wargame Research Group and Heritage Models rules. My ECW file folder is very thick with the majority in pen and pencil.
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Post by Sean Michael Kelly on Feb 16, 2012 15:13:10 GMT -6
I'd love to resurrect this thread to see if anyone may have any clues if there has ever been any PDF's of this historic resource produced. Sure would be interested in seeing it.... Feel free to PM
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Post by DungeonDevil on Feb 25, 2012 3:21:06 GMT -6
If early TSR rules may have been similar, since I've got their TRICOLOR Napoleonics rulebook, I wonder how close C&R is to it? It would be a great comparative study if I knew more!
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Jul 27, 2012 9:36:34 GMT -6
I was just watching an interesting movie "Capitaine Alatriste" it has a great battle scene of Rocoi at the end. Of course someone has posted it on Youtube. youtu.be/ZrVbr4vIGgg
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Post by stonetoflesh on Aug 8, 2013 13:02:05 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Cavaliers & Roundheads was ever made available as PDF? I have a feeling this one isn't on Wizards' list to release...
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 8, 2013 15:58:57 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Cavaliers & Roundheads was ever made available as PDF? I have a feeling this one isn't on Wizards' list to release... No, I've never seen it in PDF. Indeed, I've hardly ever seen much interest and/or discussion about it. I seem to recall one single article in Strategic Review (or maybe early Dragon) but not even much support from TSR back then.
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 343
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Post by jacar on Dec 26, 2013 13:21:04 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Cavaliers & Roundheads was ever made available as PDF? I have a feeling this one isn't on Wizards' list to release... No PDF. It appears on Ebay from time to time. A "fair" price is about $20-$25 US. I've seen it go for as little as $16.
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Post by tdenmark on Jun 2, 2017 16:43:46 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Cavaliers & Roundheads was ever made available as PDF? I have a feeling this one isn't on Wizards' list to release... No PDF. It appears on Ebay from time to time. A "fair" price is about $20-$25 US. I've seen it go for as little as $16. I'd love to get a copy for $25, even $50, but I haven't seen one under $199 on eBay!
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Post by thebadgamer98 on Apr 7, 2020 6:15:52 GMT -6
No PDF. It appears on Ebay from time to time. A "fair" price is about $20-$25 US. I've seen it go for as little as $16. I'd love to get a copy for $25, even $50, but I haven't seen one under $199 on eBay! Can’t find one on eBay for under $1,200 now!
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Post by angantyr on Apr 7, 2020 14:04:39 GMT -6
If early TSR rules may have been similar, since I've got their TRICOLOR Napoleonics rulebook, I wonder how close C&R is to it? It would be a great comparative study if I knew more! I think I have Tricolor as well, along with C&R. I'll see about doing a comparison here in the near future. There are similarities to CHAINMAIL, certainly, but a more detailed comparison with the various early games is overdue.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 7, 2020 18:43:40 GMT -6
I often thought it would be cool to take a bunch of the old TSR stuff (Tricolor and C&R and Chainmail) and try to put them all together into one super-miniatures rules set. My recollection from decades ago is that they were all designed differently enough where I never had success with it. I could be wrong, though, as I haven't thought about this stuff since the 70's or 80's when my group did a lot of that.
Role playing really killed our wargaming and miniatures battles, as most of our group would rather role play than play other games. Ironically, my current group (totally different people, except for me) has the same philosophy. If I want them to get together to play Betrayal at the House on the Hill or some other boardgame they usually say, "let's play D&D instead!"
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Post by DungeonDevil on Apr 7, 2020 22:03:10 GMT -6
I often thought it would be cool to take a bunch of the old TSR stuff (Tricolor and C&R and Chainmail) and try to put them all together into one super-miniatures rules set. I may be in the minority, but I don't think my palate could survive the mash-up of spicy tacos, chococate pudding and mountain dew. I wrote that last post of mine eight years ago! Honestly, I was fishing for someone to step in and volunteer to give us a detailed run-down on C&C, but noone took the bait.
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Post by aldarron on Apr 8, 2020 5:46:43 GMT -6
It would be particularly interesting to look at core rule tidbits - things that often get discussed in relation to CHAINMAIL, like rounds in a turn a turn, charge rules, fatigue, - stuff like that. It could be a way of clarifying and expanding things that might prove useful to D&D.
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Post by tdenmark on May 4, 2020 4:50:26 GMT -6
It would be particularly interesting to look at core rule tidbits - things that often get discussed in relation to CHAINMAIL, like rounds in a turn a turn, charge rules, fatigue, - stuff like that. It could be a way of clarifying and expanding things that might prove useful to D&D. I have a copy and find it to be standard fare for the time and found nothing remarkable in Cavaliers and Roundheads that shines any light on the development of D&D. Chainmail is far more interesting.
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