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Post by uncruliar on Jul 28, 2010 12:26:49 GMT -6
Over at Gringle's Pawnshop this thread has been started up asking about whether there is a retro-clone for RQ2. So far as I can see there isn't so I'm wondering what the law has to say on retro-clones. To be honest I had never even heard of them until relatively recently. So can anybody tell me why there are clones for D&D but not T&T or RQ? If I wanted to write retro-clone for RQ2 could I?
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Post by Falconer on Jul 28, 2010 12:46:53 GMT -6
I believe GORE ( print/ PDF) does the trick, at least filling the role of a license under which you can publish new stuff for RQ. In terms of a rulebook for actual play, there is Chaosium’s BPR, Moonquest RQ, and SPQR. That’s a lot of options. I suppose for many of us nothing but the original will do (but that’s true for D&D, too!).
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Post by greyharp on Jul 28, 2010 13:37:47 GMT -6
I'm wondering what the law has to say on retro-clones. Here's some reading for you uncruliar: The US Copyright Office on games. The Uncle Bear blog on retro-clones. A thread on RPG.Net where someone asks if they are legal - read the third post down by Sleeper. And what Wikipedia has to say on Open Gaming, which is also a nice history of Open Gaming and RPGs. Retro-clones of D&D have been on the scene since 2004 and are being sold in bricks and mortar game stores. They are being promoted at the same conventions that WotC attends. So can anybody tell me why there are clones for D&D but not T&T or RQ? I'm guessing because T&T is still in print and from what I hear (though I could be wrong), the latest version isn't that drastically different from the original, making a clone unnecessary. As for RQ I don't know. I'm guess simply because nobody within the RQ fan community has bothered to do so. It takes a special kind of person to write a true clone of an old game. It is someone who is not only passionate about the game, but also has a desire to see that game return to print and see the fan base of that game grow, an evangelical streak if you like. If I wanted to write retro-clone for RQ2 could I? 3rd Edition D&D is drastically different than the TSR versions of the game in many ways, but given the copyright information above where rules aren't protected, only format, it has been possible to use the OGL and SRD to reverse engineer the original games, so that while 3e has but 3 saving throw categories, retro-clones are able to recreate the original 5 classes. What the SRD makes possible is the complete freedom to use certain terms, so while the rules of the SRD may be drastically different from the original game, if the terminology used is the same, recreating the original game in clone form is made easy. If this is a project you are seriously considering uncruliar, I would suggest contacting Dan Proctor of Goblinoid Games, the man who has given us Labyrinth Lord, along with its Advanced and Original Edition supplements, Mutant Future, and Gore. Unfortunately he is in the middle of moving house, so it might take him a couple of weeks to respond. But he's certainly experienced and passionate.
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 28, 2010 13:50:51 GMT -6
Thanks for your response Falconer although none of the games you mention seem to do the trick, at least for me. I honestly do take your suggestions in the positive spirit that I'm sure you made them. But they're not ticking my boxes.
I have looked at GORE and that seems to be closer to Mongoose RQ than to RQ2.
The only links I can find for Chaosium's BRP are very much commercial whereas I'm thinking about something like the no-art free PDF of Labyrinth Lord.
I can't find MoonQuest RQ at all, do you mean Mongoose RQ I wonder. If so then that is certainly not what I'm looking for.
I hadn't head about SPQR before but now that I've looked into it it is clearly not RQ2.
Greyharp - as a law graduate I should know better than to ask waht the law says and expect a simple answer. I guess I might have to do some serious reading. I would love to see a retro-clone for RQ2. Whether I care enough to be the evangelist you mention I don't know.
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Post by kesher on Jul 28, 2010 13:53:01 GMT -6
Wow, greyharp, thou art Exalted for providing all that info!
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Post by Falconer on Jul 28, 2010 14:10:06 GMT -6
Heh, MoonQuest! I did mean Mongoose, of course.
Well, I guess it comes down to, if someone wants to do it someone should do it! You’ll be missing the Glorantha aspect, thought, which might be a deal-breaker for a lot of people interested in recreating RQ2. I don’t know what would stop you though, from using even Glorantha, if it were free!
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Post by greyharp on Jul 28, 2010 14:16:43 GMT -6
You’ll be missing the Glorantha aspect, thought, which might be a deal-breaker for a lot of people interested in recreating RQ2. I don’t know what would stop you though, from using even Glorantha, if it were free! It would certainly allow people to run pbp games in the Glorantha setting with everyone having easy access to the rules, in which case it wouldn't matter if the majority of players didn't have access to Glorantha materials themselves.
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 28, 2010 14:21:32 GMT -6
It would certainly allow people to run pbp games in the Glorantha setting with everyone having easy access to the rules, in which case it wouldn't matter if the majority of players didn't have access to Glorantha materials themselves. Exactly what I would like to do, or see other people do. Of course if it created enough interest to see 3rd Age Gloranthan material back in print then that might not be a bad thing either. By which I mean, for example, making Cults of Prax available either in print or pdf; rather than the HeroQuest based stuff that Issairies is putting out at the moment.
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Post by stevemitchell on Jul 28, 2010 16:02:18 GMT -6
My preference would be to have Chaosium re-release RQ2 as is, no system changes or "improvements," just fix any errata, and put the whole package in hardback with new formatting and layout and lots of color art. Call it RuneQuest Classic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2010 18:34:09 GMT -6
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 28, 2010 18:37:09 GMT -6
My preference would be to have Chaosium re-release RQ2 as is, no system changes or "improvements," just fix any errata, and put the whole package in hardback with new formatting and layout and lots of color art. Call it RuneQuest Classic. To do that, I believe they'd need to license Glorantha back from Greg Stafford's Issaries, which seems unlikely to me, but I suppose anything is possible. On the other hand, I don't see any reason why they couldn't produce a de-Glorantha-ized fantasy BRP that's very close to RQ2.
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Post by greyharp on Jul 28, 2010 20:56:11 GMT -6
I don't see any reason why they couldn't produce a de-Glorantha-ized fantasy BRP that's very close to RQ2. Exactly.
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 29, 2010 3:33:51 GMT -6
This is more or less a cross post from the Retro-clone thread at Gringle's Pawnshop (link in OP) I thought it would be useful to share my thoughts with as many people as possible. Some of you are on both boards but several are not - yet If I've got this right then in theory it would be possible to use either Mongoose RQ1 or OpenQuest as System Reference Document and then to retro-clone Chaosium's RQ2. As I understand it this is what was done to create Labyrinth Lords, which is a clone of OD&D. Labyrinth Lords I believe has some very minor differences from OD&D, such as slightly different numbers of XP needed to progress levels. (Apologies if I've got any of that wrong as I know very little about D&D whatever the edition). The question then would be how close to Chaosium RQ2 it is possible to get. Unless it was virtually identical there is little point. For example, if it was necessary to change the term 'Strike Rank' to 'Priority Rank' (or whatever) I don't think that would be a problem. On the other hand, if a character with identical stats and using the same weapon had a different Strike Rank in RQ2 to his Priority Rank in 'Clone Quest' then the games would not be compatible. It has also been suggested that it would be great if Chaosium re-released RQ2. I would agree, that would be great. But I can't see it happening. Chaosium have other games to sell and I doubt they would see a market for 'Classic Runequest'. In fact I don't think they have the rights to the name Runequest anymore. The best they could do would be to call it 'Classic BRP'. There is also the question of who would buy CloneQuest or Classic BRP. It wouldn't be able to include any Gloranthan material. I would see it being attractive to somebody who was joining a group of experienced RQ2 players and wanted access to the rules. They would then pick up bits of Gloranthan background through gameplay and discussion. I wonder how many such people there might be.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 5:03:34 GMT -6
I know very little about D&D whatever the edition Which makes me wonder why you hang out here so much. Oh, because most of your posts point back to your own Gringle forum. I don't think there is a real need for another clone of Runequest. 1. Chaosium is still supporting BRP. 2. Mongoose is still supporting RQII. 3. GORE is a free download. 4. OpenQuest is a free download. RQ is a small, niche market already. Just adding more versions is the same problem we're having with the D&D "houserule" clones -- there are already too many and it fragments the market.
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 29, 2010 6:42:05 GMT -6
I know very little about D&D whatever the edition Which makes me wonder why you hang out here so much. Oh, because most of your posts point back to your own Gringle forum. Sorry if I seem to have upset you by my presence here. I found this forum originally when I was introducing my children to roleplaying and somebody had given me some D&D stuff. I also use Fyn/Vin's T&T forum, more so as I have played T&T quite a bit over the years. A little while ago somebody posted about RQ on the T&T forum which got me thinking about creating an RQ forum. Fyn very kindly helped me out with some advice, including creating my sig on this board with it's link to the RQ board. As I understand it I have Fyn's blessing to promote my board. If that isn't the case I will happily cease and desist. So far he hasn't sent me a pm on any of the three boards of which we are both members, nor has he emailed me although he does have my email address. Now I'll back off since I know Fyn likes us to play nicely on his boards.
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Post by stevemitchell on Jul 29, 2010 8:19:06 GMT -6
I know Chaosium doesn't have the rights to do Glorantha anymore. So RuneQuest Classic isn't going to happen. But every time I open my copy of RQ2, I think, "Darn it, I want THESE rules and world background, just with 2010 production values."
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Post by ffilz on Jul 29, 2010 8:53:38 GMT -6
There had been some talk several years back, while the Gloranthan Classics were still in print, and not even all published, of producing a rule book to use for running them.
Unfortunately that never happened.
What is sad is that several bits of RuneQuest which to me are critical to the game are missing or very changed from what I have seen (though I also have not read the new Basic Roleplaying, perhaps it has all, or most of the rules in it's optional chapters.
Important bits to me are: Battle Magic (with 4 or 6 point variable spells), Rune Magic, 12 strike ranks per round, the fumble table, skill categories, skill training costs, the races and creatures, and probably a few more things.
Unfortunately, some of these things could never be combined, especially since I don't think Greg Stafford really considers some of them (or at least their RQ2 implementation) appropriate any more.
Frank
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 29, 2010 9:54:06 GMT -6
The two posts above are exactly why I think a retro-clone would be a good idea. I doubt that the Gloranthan specific creatures (e.g. dragonewts and broos) could be included but I should imagine that other things on ffilz's list could be.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 29, 2010 9:55:11 GMT -6
I know Chaosium doesn't have the rights to do Glorantha anymore. So RuneQuest Classic isn't going to happen. But every time I open my copy of RQ2, I think, "Darn it, I want THESE rules and world background, just with 2010 production values." I feel pretty much the same way, although, to be fair, I'm not sure I'd trade Luise Perrin's artwork or William Church's cartography for anyone else's. For me, they're a great part of the charm of the original game.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 29, 2010 9:56:11 GMT -6
The two posts above are exactly why I think a retro-clone would be a good idea. I doubt that the Gloranthan specific creatures (e.g. dragonewts and broos) could be included but I should imagine that other things on ffilz's list could be. I think you're right. It's something I'd certainly like to see, but then I'm one of those guys who doesn't think there can be "too many" retro-clones. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 14:17:18 GMT -6
Which makes me wonder why you hang out here so much. Oh, because most of your posts point back to your own Gringle forum. Sorry if I seem to have upset you by my presence here. I have Fyn's blessing to promote my board. Hey, I'm not really upset by you being here, just the frequency that you keep name-dropping the other forum. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I went back and looked at your past posts to see if I'm out of line here -- at this moment you have 47 total posts and 14 of them promote your forum. Plus you have the link in your signature. I'm thinking that if someone wants to find the Gringle place they will do so.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 29, 2010 14:20:27 GMT -6
I went back and looked at your past posts to see if I'm out of line here -- at this moment you have 47 total posts and 14 of them promote your forum. Hmmm. Stalker? I'm sending you a PM, Keltset.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 29, 2010 14:38:26 GMT -6
Old School Trek Old School Trek Old School Trek! Okay, back on topic now. I hate to say this out loud, but in all seriousness, I think PDF file sharing of the originals is by far the best option right now in terms of actual gaming. Especially if someone was able to put together a very good quality scan/OCR.
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 29, 2010 15:43:37 GMT -6
You're right, that is an excellent idea. It includes all the Gloranthan flavour and all the original artwork which RQ2 fans love. Without wanting to belittle the effort involved in producing a decent PDF it is probably less than would be involved in writing a retro-clone.
But is it legal?
I wouldn't want to be abusing anybodies IP.
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Post by greyharp on Jul 30, 2010 1:12:52 GMT -6
I don't think there is a real need for another clone of Runequest.
RQ is a small, niche market already. Just adding more versions is the same problem we're having with the D&D "houserule" clones -- there are already too many and it fragments the market. I don't agree with this sentiment, which has more to do with a misunderstanding of the clones and what they are trying to achieve, than what is actually happening in the scene. As far as (TSR) D&D is concerned there are only 3 clones for the 3 different types of D&D - S&W for OD&D, LL for Basic D&D, and OSRIC for AD&D (actually that's not true, we've recently had BECMI and 2e clones released too). And the fact is all three are easily compatible with each other, with their modules and supplements all easily interchangeable and modified on the fly. Yes there are other clones, most of which are not true clones of any one particular version of D&D, but rather most often a person's house-ruled vision of how they prefer to play D&D. Bottom line is though, most of us, no matter what version of the game we're playing, consider that we're just playing D&D. And in most cases those who buy into one clone usually buy into the others, few are rigidly fans of just one clone. So I don't agree the market is fragmented. The problem we do have is that those new to the scene have trouble grasping the fact that the various clones are all easily interchangeable and pretty much represent one game - TSR D&D. Communicating that fact to those not familiar with the scene quickly and clearly, before they turn away confused - now that is the problem. If someone produces an original RQ clone, the same issue may arise, but really it is also a great opportunity for them to deal with that issue straight away and nip it in the bud. I doubt that the Gloranthan specific creatures (e.g. dragonewts and broos) could be included but I should imagine that other things on ffilz's list could be. Well, as the rulebook itself says in the introduction: "However, this game is not limited to Glorantha. The experience system, the combat system, most of the magic system, and the training/guilds system, and everything but the specific references to the world of Glorantha can be adjusted to fit any time and space with a minimum of hassle." Besides which, if the Mongoose SRD mentions any Glorantha details (and I don't know if it does or not), they can then be used in a clone of the original game too. I hate to say this out loud, but in all seriousness, I think PDF file sharing of the originals is by far the best option right now in terms of actual gaming. Though most of us of course do it, the fact that it is illegal will put some people off getting involved. Having a clone will not only make freely distributing the rules easy and something that can be done openly, but it will then allow folks to get creative and publish further works that can be used in the game, which will in turn excite others into jumping on board - or in other words - grow the niche. Creating a clone, especially one modelled on the above quote from the rulebook, wouldn't be that hard. Create a Word doc of the original rules, strip out the Glorantha material while comparing it to the Mongoose SRD to see if any of it can be retained. Change the layout (older games can usually benefit from a new format anyway), rewrite the text, making the minimum minor changes needed for it to abide by the licence and there you go - a clone that can be used to bring new folks in, without them having to battle collectors and pay a fair whack for the few copies popping up on Ebay now and then, or have the luck to stumble upon a copy in a game shop. The percentage of people who will buy an unfamiliar, unseen game out of curiosity is small, especially if they have to jump through hoops to do so, while the percentage who will have a look at a free pdf to try before they buy, then have the ability to purchase a new and shiny product if they like it, is far greater. This is very doable.
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 30, 2010 2:15:00 GMT -6
Besides which, if the Mongoose SRD mentions any Glorantha details (and I don't know if it does or not), they can then be used in a clone of the original game too. Having looked at Mongoose RQ it does include the classic Gloranthan creatures such as the Broo, Dragonewts etc. so I guess they could be included in a clone. Most RQ2 fans like the game largely because of Glorantha but, as I've said before, a Glorantha free cloned rule set would allow new players access to the rules so they can play alongside experienced players with Gloranthan background material. Obviously it would also allow people to use a great system in whatever setting they choose.
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Post by ffilz on Jul 30, 2010 8:46:42 GMT -6
Unfortunately the SRD does not have many creatures in it:
Brown Bear, Centaur, Dragon, Duck, Dwarf, Elf, Giant, Great Troll, Griffin, Horse, Lion, Manticore, Skeleton, Unicorn, Wolf, Wyrm, Wyvern, Zombie
So the SRD won't be much help.
Frank
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Post by uncruliar on Jul 30, 2010 9:11:34 GMT -6
What I've got in front of me is entitled Runequest SRD Luxury Edition and includes this text - This is the RuneQuest-material published under the Open Game License by Mongoose Publishing.
It includes a very complete set of racial charactersistics for all the Gloranthan races.
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Post by ffilz on Jul 30, 2010 9:41:12 GMT -6
Yea, I see that longer monster SRD now.
Frank
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 30, 2010 10:19:55 GMT -6
What I've got in front of me is entitled Runequest SRD Luxury Edition and includes this text - This is the RuneQuest-material published under the Open Game License by Mongoose Publishing.It includes a very complete set of racial charactersistics for all the Gloranthan races. Are you looking at a book or at the SRD? I've never seen a RQ SRD that included any specifically Gloranthan monsters in it other than Ducks. EDIT: Ah, yes, I see it now. The problem, unfortunately, is that the expanded MRQ I SRD doesn't include descriptions of any of these monsters, so finding a way to describe, say, a jack o'bear or walktapus that's both true to the originals and doesn't use non-open sources is going to be tough.
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