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Post by Mr. Darke on Sept 18, 2010 16:13:09 GMT -6
Anyway ... I'm sure some folks were buying C&C just becasue of the CZ project and I'd rather see something closer to the original rather than something edited to "fit" a game line. Just my two coppers. I am in this category. After all is said and done C&C feels incomplete without CZ attached and nothing TLG has done since the license was pulled feels like it fits the system. In the end I feel C&C needs CZ much like Greyhawk needs 1e AD&D. Interestingly enough if you go here the answer as to why the license was pulled may have been found. It may have been decided that no CKG ended TLG having the CZ rights. Right or wrong given the connection between the two C&C won't feel complete without CZ and CZ won't feel right without C&C.
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jrt
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Post by jrt on Sept 21, 2010 21:09:29 GMT -6
The Real Irony though is that, while Gary wanted C&C, it was always a compromise. He really wanted AD&D rules, but felt he couldn't do it legally. Because of his friendship with Steve and Davis, he was willing to take the compromise, but from my experience, he never used the C&C ruleset at all and he had other people translating the game stats from his own notes. The original Yggsburg manuscript just referred to hp and used mostly AD&D shorthand. In fact, I'll have to dig up the e-mail where he threatened to quit because the draft manuscript referred to DR instead of Save -4 or something like that.
(Actually, what he really wanted was LA for the castle, but he had trouble converting the strict level based structure of the OD&D game to LA terms, and I think he knew that dream wasn't commercially viable).
Of course, if things were still on and Gary was still alive I'd keep that private, but its now water under the bridge, and people need to realize C&C itself was a compromise. Gary really did want TLG to succeed, and I think Castle Zagyg was done more or less as a favor to them rather than his own personal desire to have it see print. There is such a thing as the "Gygax Sales Pitch" that may not always reflect his private feelings. Sometimes, it's all about business and compromise. Remember, the key goal was to make some money, first and foremost.
To me, the irony is that the existence of C&C caused a lot of Internet drama, and people doing things like leaving Dragonsfoot and founding other message boards. If C&C was meant to unify or to become the heir to the "classic game", it seemed to have the opposite effect on some circles.
I have to wonder if OSRIC was created a few years earlier if Gary (and TLG) would have done something more like that, instead. Then again, he always wanted to support a company and a commercial future for the spirit of 1e, and he wouldn't have liked the anti-commercial nature the OSR has sort of taken nowadays, and I think legal analysis at the time supported a more hybrid approach as opposed to the retro-clone approach. To be honest, I think the retro-clones benefit more from the lack of concern by WoTC than anything else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 14:22:55 GMT -6
Actually... When Gary and I discussed doing the Castle and what the rules were going to be, rules then in the production phase, I informed him (to his surprise) that the OGL could be used to create an almost near perfect imitation of AD&D sans experience charts. This was all new territory for him, so he instead suggested we wait to see what the C&C rules looked like. About a month after that we both received a sample of the product--some monsters. In going over these, and then in phone conversation with between us--we both concluded that there were major changes in the work to a D&D simulacra, and I will tell you right out that EGG though less vociferous about it later, did not care for the feel of d20 permeating these then. He and I were both assured by TLG (by Stephen, and in emails, all of which I still have as ccd to both EGG and I) that these were only minor variations and would not effect the feel of the game as a whole, so EGG acquiesced.
As for my version of the castle that I championed for the fans and players both--and the round-robin discussions by phone and email EGG and I had, as well as my ultimate departure from the project--no one has bothered to ask me about this to date. Zilch. So if there is a real irony, it is once again in the distorted and incomplete speculation which is oftentimes fed to the online community and elsewhere as "fact".
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Post by grodog on Sept 26, 2010 21:11:37 GMT -6
As for my version of the castle that I championed for the fans and players both--and the round-robin discussions by phone and email EGG and I had, as well as my ultimate departure from the project--no one has bothered to ask me about this to date. Zilch. So if there is a real irony, it is once again in the distorted and incomplete speculation which is oftentimes fed to the online community and elsewhere as "fact". So, when do we get to hear your version of the story Rob?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 21:47:43 GMT -6
You already know my version as you were informed when it was transpiring. And what version, btw? There is only one version. All of my choices are based upon sound reasoning. So there's my reason. This is not "gossip corner." All I am saying is that if people do not want my reasons to begin with then they should not include my name or guesses at what was going on, or indeed went on. That is a one-sided POV which dispels truth without all factual amtter to begin with as it is patently and obviously biased when one does not include all the facts. Folks who choose in light of absence of all facts to still present partials as the unexpurgated truth are not only practicing falsehood but are lying to themselves and to others. It is not my burden to disproves assertions which are obviously one-sided in those instances, and for the obvious reason that they were made with the intent of being biased by not seeking out or including any other content to the contrary. IOW. Bad journalism. I have no trust for such people and for their moral inclinations afterwards, and in fact despise them for the weasels they always are.
Have a nice day.
RJK
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Post by Ghul on Sept 27, 2010 7:14:25 GMT -6
Honestly, Rob, I don't think it's anyone's d**n business, but that's just my two cents. Don't let some random forum poster, even if he was a pen-pal of Gary's, convince you that his assertions are viewed as acceptable truths within the traditional RPG community.
--Jeff T.
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Post by Falconer on Sept 27, 2010 8:26:38 GMT -6
Rob, I hope it wasn’t my post that upset you. If it was, I’m sorry. I’m just a fan; I have no claim to being an industry insider. For better or for worse, idle speculation when information is lacking is just part of being a fan, and nothing I post is anything more. Anyway, I tried to keep it to a minimum, and proposed the idea that anyone can see the products that were ultimately published, and judge for themselves. But I would definitely be happy for you to set the record straight, if you so desire.
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Post by grodog on Sept 27, 2010 9:13:38 GMT -6
I concur: I should clearly have said "your side of the story" and by stating version, I certainly wasn't implying any deviance from truth. It sounded like you wanted the opportunity to voice your side of events---to be asked---which is what prompted my question.
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jrt
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Post by jrt on Sept 27, 2010 10:35:55 GMT -6
Honestly, Rob, I don't think it's anyone's d**n business, but that's just my two cents. Don't let some random forum poster, even if he was a pen-pal of Gary's, convince you that his assertions are viewed as acceptable truths within the traditional RPG community.--Jeff T. Dismissing me as a "pen pal" is a real oversimplification Ghul. Let's be fair about something. All I said was this. Both agreed to not discuss details in public, and I see no need to spill any of the beans here--only to simply say Gary felt betrayed, mostly because Rob initially agreed and then changed his mind after the project was underway. I think once Gary was committed to the whole marketing of the affair he would not want to back down.I agree with Grogdog that it's an oversimplification, and I am sorry I may have offended Rob with those brief comments. But as far as Gary's anger, that's true, and that comes from Gary's perspective. I thought that was the best way of stating "it's not worth getting into". If people start attacking my own integrity, though, I'd be happy to reproduce Gary's correspondence regarding the issue, though I'd rather not do that. Like I said, I wanted to leave it alone, as I ended up rather saddened by the whole thing.
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Post by Falconer on Sept 27, 2010 11:01:51 GMT -6
Dismissing me as a "pen pal" is a real oversimplification Ghul. It’s a common mistake. No matter where you pop up on the Internet, every single post somehow flaunts your “correspondence” with Gary. We got that loud and clear. Also, you’re usually indignant about something.
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Post by murquhart72 on Sept 27, 2010 17:14:20 GMT -6
NEGATIVITY BEGETS NEGATIVITY
Don't give in to the Dark Side, not even for the cookies!
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 28, 2010 6:40:08 GMT -6
NEGATIVITY BEGETS NEGATIVITY Don't give in to the Dark Side, not even for the cookies! More importantly: [glow=red,2,300]Don't chase Rob away![/glow]
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jrt
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Post by jrt on Sept 28, 2010 7:03:06 GMT -6
Do not worry, I'll bow out of this discussion to keep peace.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2010 14:32:52 GMT -6
I suggest that interested folks look at certain comments made on the ENWORLD topic regarding Castle Zagyg. Search for my name in relation to it. They are OLDER posts in a thread relating to the reasons why CZ did not involve me. I did not feel then that I had to "defend" myself because my truth was not baseless or twisted as to why I left the project--it was only the truth and I honestly commented on that at PPP's Forum's-Herald at the time that happened--and then said nothing else, until now.
Other than that, I said my piece and in retrospect hold no animosity whatsoever for anyone anymore. My temper is usually only fueled by what I deem injustice to myself or to others. It is a straw fire however and burns out quickly. That's me. I make no apologies and at this point am accepting none, ether.
What's done is done.
Have a nice day.
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