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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 15, 2010 10:12:59 GMT -6
As you probably all know, Gary launched a project with Troll Lord Games to re-create the original Castle Greyhawk from the early days. The TLG project was titled Castle Zagyg, used the Castles & Crusades rules, and my understanding is that Gary was the overseer even though other authors wrote up the details. I thought it would be good to list off the products for the line.
CZ1 Yggsburgh Campaign Setting Hardback (2005; Gary Gygax) CZ2 The Upper Works Boxed Set (2008; Gary Gygax & Jeffrey Talanian) CZ7 The East Mark Gazetteer (2007) CZ10 The Free Town of Yggsburgh: Town Halls (2007; Jeffrey Talanian) CZ11 The Free Town of Yggsburgh: Moat Gate (2007; Don Macvittie) CZ12 The Store House District (2008; Jeffrey Talanian)
Dark Chateau (2005; Rob Kuntz)
Class Options & Skills (PDF only) Yggsburgh Player's Maps (PDF only) The Outs Inn (PDF only) The East Mark Map (PDF only)
The Original Plan When the CZ project was first launched, there was an announced sequence of products. I. Yggsburgh (released) II. Upper Works (released) III. The Dungeons IV. The Deeps V. Chambers of Stone VI. A Lightless Lake VII. Zagyg’s Way
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Post by Falconer on Jul 15, 2010 16:53:15 GMT -6
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Post by Falconer on Jul 15, 2010 17:27:16 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 15, 2010 18:15:51 GMT -6
Falconer, you are a national resource! Every time I think I know something you know a little more. (I have to toss Grodog into this list as well, since he always seems to have a little extra kept in reserve.)
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jul 15, 2010 19:55:45 GMT -6
Gary had also made mention of possible expansions of the areas around the Yggsburgh environs. If you have the Eastmark Gazetteer you can see where he possibly was working on ideas for this. Using that and the material in Yggsburgh I have been sketching my own version of the 'off map' areas.
I had actually been hoping I would see this as the castle levels were released but we all know where the story goes. I still hold out some small hope that Gygax Games will wake up from it's slumber and continue with this. I'll see if I can find some of Gary's posts on TLG's forums on this but most of them have went away.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 15, 2010 20:28:51 GMT -6
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jul 15, 2010 21:08:09 GMT -6
JRT...
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jul 15, 2010 23:01:14 GMT -6
Falconer, I had another response on the threads you linked but I will just leave it at the above and hopefully not send this thread the way of so many others that dealt with this subject. Needless to say I am one of the unhappy ones over the whole mess.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 15, 2010 23:21:34 GMT -6
We all are. All of the products I listed above are support products to a core product that has yet to materialize (although it was going to if what Gary had in place were left alone).
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2010 4:30:04 GMT -6
I hate to re-hash discussions that have already occured elsewhere, but it's clear to me that the whole CZ project didn't accomplish what we'd all hoped for and once the lisence was pulled from the Troll Lords it was clear that CZ suffered a huge setback. I think that everyone wanted the dungeons and that the extras would be the icing on the cake, but all we got was the icing with almost no cake.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 16, 2010 5:33:48 GMT -6
I think that everyone wanted the dungeons and that the extras would be the icing on the cake, but all we got was the icing with almost no cake. To be fair, the icing was released as a stop-gap due to delays in the delivery of the cake itself. That's not to excuse the disappointment I felt in the way the whole project went down in the end, of course.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2010 7:02:12 GMT -6
Actually, one of my objections to the CZ project was that so much revision was done to make it up to current standards. I look at Dave's 10-level Blackmoor Dungeons from the First Fantasy Campaign book and think "now that's how the Greyhawk dungeons could have been done." I didn't really need a bunch of boxed sets or hardbacks, although I certainly snapped up any CZ products I could get in whatever format they were released. And I probably would again if Gygax Games announced it was doing it all over again.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jul 16, 2010 20:15:52 GMT -6
One thing to remember; it wasn't just CZ we lost. We also lost the Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds series, Lejendary Adventure and a whole slew of other products that was in TLG's pipe. The fact that Gary was reworking the Castle never did bother me. Gary had his hand in it so I was sure we were getting what he wanted to produce. (Never did understand the angst over that point)
Anyway, I would rather leave old wounds closed. Sadly the final events over CZ and Gygax Games will taint Gary's Legacy for many of us as we knew that whe he had coming would blow his old works away.
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jrt
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 10
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Post by jrt on Aug 26, 2010 14:58:18 GMT -6
Way to twist my words. The point I was trying to make, was that you did have an effect on Gail, in that I think in actually posting a thread that was quite rude to that message board (as well as several others), did affect her. I think the net effect of your actions, along with others, is her withdrawing from the community and deciding to focus on other projects instead of publishing, which I don't think was your goal. I'm not saying people can't be disappointed about it, but there are ways to express those opinions and other's have done so without appearing to be embarrassing or harassing the widow to the man we cared about. (And to be clear, Gygax Games is Gail alone--everything was done with her approval and according to her wishes, so there's no other scapegoat to blame).
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Post by Falconer on Aug 26, 2010 18:06:00 GMT -6
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Post by Mr. Darke on Aug 27, 2010 11:17:52 GMT -6
I'll try to be nice about this.
John, I don't thing you truly get how mad and betrayed all of us feel over the events that stopped the production of CZ. But it wasn't just CZ that we lost. It was LA, the GFW series and the other projects in the pipe.
When you consider that you have to realize that there will be those that waited, in some cases for decades, that feel they will never see a project promised in 1983.
Add in the unexplained silences, information that has been leaked from very reliable sources and you get what we have. Gygax Games losing most to all of it's respect in the community. In fact, the company has become a sad joke among most gamers.
Go ahead and tell me I am spoiled, or I am attacking a poor defensless widow or whatever else you use to try to make those that disagree with the pretty picture you try to paint of the situation. Do what you can, I really don't care I just know that Gary's Legacy will never be in a good light as long as it is in the hands it is in.
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jrt
Level 1 Medium
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Post by jrt on Aug 27, 2010 12:20:35 GMT -6
I get it dude, but if you read that ENWorld thread and saw my comments, I hope you understand where I am coming from. Nor I am trying to paint a pretty picture, I'd rather have Gary's works in print.
I simply think at some point, you're gonna have to just let go instead of being bitter.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Aug 27, 2010 12:34:01 GMT -6
I've let go. I have also let go of any future support of Gygax games should they emerge from the mire.
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Post by grodog on Aug 27, 2010 14:13:36 GMT -6
Falconer, you are a national resource! Every time I think I know something you know a little more. (I have to toss Grodog into this list as well, since he always seems to have a little extra kept in reserve.) Thanks for the nice thoughts, Marv. Philip's efforts and those of various other members of the Greyhawk faithful are definitely at the cutting edge of a) preserving what we do know, and b) ferreting out more details and sources to expand what we know. As I just mentioned on DF last night, if you're interested in the early Greyhawk Castle short stories, they're slowly but surely being made available by me (" The Black Reservoir"), Joe "Greyhawk Grognard" Bloch (who recently did " The Magician's Ring"), and Gaetano at Axe & Hammer (he recently did " Swords & Sorcery in Wargaming", as well as The Black Reservoir). Gaetano has really taken the lead, however, trying to unearth and share every possible shred of useful Gygaxian data (not that Joe or Philip or others are a slouch at all, either! ). I had actually been hoping I would see this as the castle levels were released but we all know where the story goes. I still hold out some small hope that Gygax Games will wake up from it's slumber and continue with this. I'll see if I can find some of Gary's posts on TLG's forums on this but most of them have went away. Gygax Games aren't the only folks who have original Castle Greyhawk levels available. If you're looking for Gary's CZ-related posts from the TLG forums, I archived all of the ones that looked useful at www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/egg/egg_cz_q&a_at_tlg_boards.zip
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Post by grodog on Aug 27, 2010 14:20:36 GMT -6
I think that everyone wanted the dungeons and that the extras would be the icing on the cake, but all we got was the icing with almost no cake. To be fair, the icing was released as a stop-gap due to delays in the delivery of the cake itself. That's not to excuse the disappointment I felt in the way the whole project went down in the end, of course. I don't think many GH fans can be found who would disagree with both of your assessments, Marv and James. Actually, one of my objections to the CZ project was that so much revision was done to make it up to current standards. I look at Dave's 10-level Blackmoor Dungeons from the First Fantasy Campaign book and think "now that's how the Greyhawk dungeons could have been done." But, if you look at the 3.x Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor, with the additional 10 levels added on there: that's exactly what we wouldn't have wanted, too. There are a number of fine lines to skirt between publishing and revising everything, publishing everything, publishing everything that's good for use in a game, and publishing a facsimilie reproduction of the original notes and manuscripts. It's a shame that the whole thing went down the way it did, of course, but perhaps at some point we'll still see the original and expanded Castle, City, Outdoor, etc. ... I didn't really need a bunch of boxed sets or hardbacks, although I certainly snapped up any CZ products I could get in whatever format they were released. And I probably would again if Gygax Games announced it was doing it all over again. ...because it's clear that there's a) a market, and b) that they would sell
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jrt
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 10
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Post by jrt on Aug 27, 2010 15:07:14 GMT -6
I do think one of the hardest things will be if/when CZ is published is what format would work best. There's calls for both original notes without alteration, expanded notes, etc.
It's going to be a challenge to figure out what the best way is to handle the project, especially as different people want different things.
(Interestingly enough, as a bit of trivia, Grogdog was on the short list to be the co-writer of CZ, or at least was being considered by Gary at one time before Jeff got on board).
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Post by grodog on Aug 27, 2010 16:26:39 GMT -6
(Interestingly enough, as a bit of trivia, Grogdog was on the short list to be the co-writer of CZ, or at least was being considered by Gary at one time before Jeff got on board). Yes, but I didn't have the time to do it, unfortunately: my day job was killing me In ~2003 Tadashi and I had also approached Gary and Rob about publishing CZ with Different Worlds, but Gary had just committed verbally to the Trolls with the project, too.
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Post by Ghul on Sept 9, 2010 11:31:07 GMT -6
I think that everyone wanted the dungeons and that the extras would be the icing on the cake, but all we got was the icing with almost no cake. To be fair, the icing was released as a stop-gap due to delays in the delivery of the cake itself. That's not to excuse the disappointment I felt in the way the whole project went down in the end, of course. This is quite right. The plan was to release a handful of Yggsburgh supplements between each CZ proper release.
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Post by Ghul on Sept 9, 2010 11:35:53 GMT -6
Actually, one of my objections to the CZ project was that so much revision was done to make it up to current standards. I look at Dave's 10-level Blackmoor Dungeons from the First Fantasy Campaign book and think "now that's how the Greyhawk dungeons could have been done." I didn't really need a bunch of boxed sets or hardbacks, although I certainly snapped up any CZ products I could get in whatever format they were released. And I probably would again if Gygax Games announced it was doing it all over again. One thing to keep in mind is that the planned outline cited above -- The Original Plan When the CZ project was first launched, there was an announced sequence of products. I. Yggsburgh (released) II. Upper Works (released) III. The Dungeons IV. The Deeps V. Chambers of Stone VI. A Lightless Lake VII. Zagyg’s Way -- was merely a reiteration of Gary's outline for the project. Seven releases was overkill, in my estimation, and I recommended to Gary and the Trolls that it be reduced to 3 boxed sets. The first boxed set (Upper Works) comprises "Upper Works" on your outline above, but also part of "Dungeons". Gary agreed that it was a good idea, and so too did the Trolls, and that was our plan before his unfortunate passing.
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Post by kenmeister on Sept 9, 2010 21:17:56 GMT -6
So I realize there's all this strange hidden secrecy around this project, and that Ghul (Jeff) can't tell us what really went down at the end and why he was bumped, but perhaps light could be shed on why Rob Kuntz backed out?
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Post by Falconer on Sept 9, 2010 22:33:09 GMT -6
The official word at the time was that the schism was due creative differences vis-a-vis how to approach the project. Now, I can well believe this was in fact true, as you can see from the resulting products (if you have them both, as I luckily do):
Rob’s approach resulted in Lake Geneva Castle & Campaign: The Original Bottle City Gary’s approach resulted in Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works
Both “usable” products yet obviously completely different philosophy and execution. And each exactly follow the model that was being championed at the time of the split by their respective designers.
I do also have to wonder, though... Since they were co-DMs of the original Castle, although to some extent there were Gary levels and Rob levels, surely there was ultimately a blend and it wasn’t quite delineated so clearly. I just wonder if “Trigee” was trying to insist on sole 100% ownership and treating Rob as a hireling. Ah, the ever-thorny questions of IP...
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jrt
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 10
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Post by jrt on Sept 12, 2010 16:57:48 GMT -6
I do also have to wonder, though... Since they were co-DMs of the original Castle, although to some extent there were Gary levels and Rob levels, surely there was ultimately a blend and it wasn’t quite delineated so clearly. I just wonder if “Trigee” was trying to insist on sole 100% ownership and treating Rob as a hireling. Ah, the ever-thorny questions of IP... Pretty much anybody who agreed to work with Gary--and in this case it was Gary who was insisting on it, not Gail--agreed to give up their copyright. This includes all co-writers and "partners", everybody agreed to this. Rob just changed his mind. I saw the exit letter he wrote and Gary's response, and I know Alan's read it from Rob's side. You are correct Falconer in that it was a difference of opinion. Both agreed to not discuss details in public, and I see no need to spill any of the beans here--only to simply say Gary felt betrayed, mostly because Rob initially agreed and then changed his mind after the project was underway. I think once Gary was committed to the whole marketing of the affair he would not want to back down. I agree that 7 sets was a little much. As many people know I was pretty much listed on most of Gary's work in the 2000's, but I didn't really look at manuscripts after Yggsburg for two reasons--first, I thought the "expansion of Yggsburg" was misguided and mostly meant to prevent people from losing interest due to all the delays. And secondly, I wanted to pay attention to LA since I felt so many hands would be touching CZ. So sadly I never got to spend a lot of time writing feedback on this project and didn't get to know Jeff as much as I did other co-writers over the last decade.
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Post by grodog on Sept 13, 2010 12:59:32 GMT -6
I do also have to wonder, though... Since they were co-DMs of the original Castle, although to some extent there were Gary levels and Rob levels, surely there was ultimately a blend and it wasn’t quite delineated so clearly. I just wonder if “Trigee” was trying to insist on sole 100% ownership and treating Rob as a hireling. Ah, the ever-thorny questions of IP... Pretty much anybody who agreed to work with Gary--and in this case it was Gary who was insisting on it, not Gail--agreed to give up their copyright. This includes all co-writers and "partners", everybody agreed to this. Rob just changed his mind. I saw the exit letter he wrote and Gary's response, and I know Alan's read it from Rob's side. You are correct Falconer in that it was a difference of opinion. Both agreed to not discuss details in public, and I see no need to spill any of the beans here--only to simply say Gary felt betrayed, mostly because Rob initially agreed and then changed his mind after the project was underway. I think once Gary was committed to the whole marketing of the affair he would not want to back down. While true, I think that's an over-simplification of why Rob wanted to change the project---Rob didn't just change his mind in any kind of flippant manner: he had (IMO legitimate) concerns about the creative execution of the project, as well as (IMO legitimate concerns) about the payment schedule and terms for the freelance contract itself. Be that as it may, I continue to hope that Gail will be publishing Gary's stuff at some point, and Rob as well. IMO it would be best to publish both together from a "getting all of the Castle IP in one place" but that's probably too much to hope for in the near future.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 13, 2010 15:51:39 GMT -6
I do think one of the hardest things will be if/when CZ is published is what format would work best. There's calls for both original notes without alteration, expanded notes, etc. My vote (not that it matters) would be to have this stuff put together more-or-less unedited and not aimed at any newfangled game system, much like Dave's First Fantasy Campaign book through Judges Guild. FFC is a "warts and all" publication and I'd prefer to see that than what happened with the 3E Blackmoor products. The 3E BM books were fine enough, but I know in my heart that Dave didn't have prestige classes and the like back in the 1970's so a part of me will always think of those as not really representing Blackmoor. (Havard, I'm sure, would disagree with me on this point, but I'm more of an elitist on the matter. ) Anyway ... I'm sure some folks were buying C&C just becasue of the CZ project and I'd rather see something closer to the original rather than something edited to "fit" a game line. Just my two coppers.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Sept 13, 2010 16:20:26 GMT -6
but I'm more of an elitist on the matter. I don't think there's anything the least bit elitist about this stance and I say that as someone who worked, albeit briefly, on the Blackmoor 3e line and very much felt that most of what we got out of it wasn't "real" Blackmoor. I don't think, especially in this age of heightened interest in the roots of our hobby, that it's unreasonable to prefer unadulterated original material rather than some latter day attempt to sell second stuff under a well known "brand." I felt that way about the post-Gygax Greyhawk material and I feel that way about the Blackmoor 3e stuff too.
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