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Post by geoffrey on Jul 14, 2010 11:00:37 GMT -6
Rob Kuntz mentioned this yesterday: "Bottle City was in part a look into the way we did it then but only one avenue of expression and there are so many more. People have been pressing me to get out the old Greyhawk dungeons I made and Castle El Raja Key, but I have recently gone through that same realization: and it's that these are just not needed (that is why folks have not seen me publishing anything in a while as I am reorganizing my concerns with that)." (link: lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2010/07/from-desktop-my-final-stance-on-osr.html )
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Post by cadriel on Jul 14, 2010 11:25:12 GMT -6
That's truly a shame - RJK's modules are the kind of thing we need precisely MORE of. Bottle City was great because this was an actual play dungeon, not one of the tournament dungeons that became the standard because TSR needed to put out SOMETHING. It was also, along with Dungeonland and The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, one of the very few published dungeons that was made to go INSIDE of a campaign dungeon, rather than as a complex in itself.
I'm not sure why he has become so concerned with this question of originality; Bottle City is authentic, and as someone who's played in it (DMed by Alan Grohe) I can tell you it's an excellent module.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 14, 2010 11:31:13 GMT -6
This makes me very sad. As I posted in his blog, these looks at the campaigns of the early days are like gold to me. I hope that he decides to publish more.
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 14, 2010 11:43:34 GMT -6
Bottle City is authentic, and as someone who's played in it (DMed by Alan Grohe) I can tell you it's an excellent module. Bottle City is on my list of top ten D&D modules of all time, and (in some moods) it is my #1 favorite D&D module.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 14, 2010 12:14:49 GMT -6
It’s too bad, but he’ll eventually come around. I have been RJK’s fan for a long time, and I have no idea what supernatural forces guide his ever-changing decisions of what project to work on next!
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 14, 2010 18:14:52 GMT -6
Mr Kuntz seems a restless and mercurial personality, regularly given over to whims and fancies. Coupled with the fact that he produces material at a glacial pace, I'm not sure his latest pronouncement amounts to much. A week, a month, a year from now, he's likely to have changed his mind yet again and given us something he's been promising for years beforehand. Or he won't; there's really no way to tell.
Speaking as someone interested in the history of the early days of the hobby, it's shame certainly, but, speaking as a gamer with an active campaign of his own, this doesn't affect me one whit. Mr Kuntz's gaming materials are (generally) engaging and well done, but I've never used them in my home game and likely never will.
So, yes, it's a pity but I'm not shedding any tears about it, not when there's equally good stuff being made available out there these days by other authors.
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Post by coffee on Jul 14, 2010 22:17:12 GMT -6
I am of the opinion that, since he's one of the Grand Old Men (tm) of the gaming hobby, we should treasure whatever we get from him (and the rest of them).
It'd be nice if we'd get exactly what we want, but it doesn't seem likely. He'll produce what he wants to produce.
After all, that's what we do, isn't it?
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Post by Falconer on Jul 14, 2010 22:59:13 GMT -6
I think Finarvyn and I have already softened his “no more old Castle levels” vow through flattery. Still, it is best, as a Kuntz fan, now as much as ever, to never expect any “upcoming” project of his to surface. He takes his time and switches projects constantly, so it’s always just a pleasant surprise when anything comes out! Rob’s my pal and his stuff is always good, so I mean him no insult, that’s just the way it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2010 9:19:09 GMT -6
I think Finarvyn and I have already softened his “no more old Castle levels” vow through flattery. Good for you guys! If you know Mr Kuntz, please pass along similar words from me!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 12:10:34 GMT -6
Hello all! This is my first post here in your esteemed forums, so throw the old man a bone to gnaw on.
First I'd like to address the point of my whimsical nature, or as that appears to be on the surface, that is. This may or may not be the truest assessment--but I do know this: I have upwards of 6 projects going at any given moment; my designs further themselves through a process of sustained creative output equal to each as a whole. For instance, if I reach a dead-end at any point with one, I suspend the design to let the next avenue percolate, and during such times turn to the next, where I go as far with that in the same manner, etc. During that creative immersion I may or may not get the hook back into the first one; and if I do I will then pick that up and go with it. For an example of this gift and curse, I will elucidate upon the design work I did for my adventure, Dark Druids. When TLG contacted me I said I had the bones of a 1975 Greyhawk outdoor/dungeon addie judged BitD. It was two color maps and apprx. 10 pages of notes and text. Of course TLG pressed me for an approximate page count (something rather absurd in my opinion, but I have thought that since day one while creating, so it is not a personal slight, just an artist's POV; kinda like asking a fine artist when his or her next masterpiece will be finished, and of course the answer is: when it's finished. But publishers will be publishers and true artists remain artists, and somehow in the chaos of pulling and pushing they work together for a shared goal, but not in the same manner over and over as one would assume). In any case, to satisfy the publisher request I stated 32 pages printed (or an "average" sized addie in print). It ended up, btw, much larger. Why? Because my creative juices would not stop flowing. And so here is a distinction in reverse; if you respect the source, you run with it. By comparison, if the source flees for a moment, I will not force the design to its end and I instead switch out until it returns; and it always returns because of this adopted mode. Therein lies an example for all so inspired, for truly inspired works withstand the test of time, or at least have a better chance of doing so. In any case, I respect the source and in return it respects me. As such inspiration is the only thing relevant in good or better design work, IMO, so I will not publish something just to say "DONE". This will disappoint some who feel that there is some "need" based on others' comparisons, but I will say that TLG in Dark Druid's case was overwhelmed and very pleased that I took longer to produce what they considered a true gem.
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Post by snorri on Jul 16, 2010 12:30:51 GMT -6
Welcome, Mr Kuntz !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 13:02:25 GMT -6
Thank you Snorri: Il est bon d'être ici !
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Post by piper on Jul 16, 2010 13:29:01 GMT -6
It is okay if I call you Rob? Welcome, Rob.
A heartfelt "thank you" for all the joy your work has brought me over the years. You're aces in my book!
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Post by aldarron on Jul 16, 2010 14:24:04 GMT -6
Woohoo! Welcome indeed!
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Post by havard on Jul 16, 2010 15:40:55 GMT -6
Great to see you here Rob! -Havard
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2010 15:52:51 GMT -6
I updated the "News Fader" with a welcome to Rob Kuntz. It's truly special to have another of the founders of OD&D on board with us, and I hope he likes the way this place has turned out!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 15:56:06 GMT -6
Thanks for the heartfelt welcome and compliments which I will allow to go to my head, of course... Where are the snacks and drinks? Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 16:00:46 GMT -6
Hey Fin (you have mail). Certes! It's yours and the others' construction, why not like it? Now if people get "revisionist" I draw the line, but that's always been the stance with even Gary and David, so I am included from the get-go, there. I am still wondering where the snacks are, however (about to make dinner---fish).
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Post by harami2000 on Jul 16, 2010 17:38:03 GMT -6
Now if people get "revisionist" I draw the line Well, either "revisionist" or just "make it up" (when no longer around, on incomplete/partial information, etc.)?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 17:51:29 GMT -6
Hi David! Yes. That is included. How's life? Getting to America any time in the future? You'll have a place to stay if you do. Between you and I we could probably "revise" a lot during your stay...
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Post by tavis on Jul 16, 2010 18:04:23 GMT -6
Good to see you here, Rob!
Snacks will be delayed until GaryCon, where I hope to explore deeper into El Raja Key via the secret door that Gary passed by hundreds of times in the '70s; hopefully the smoke will have cleared out by then.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 18:53:11 GMT -6
Tavis, hello. Which adventurer were you? My memory is not as sharp as it was, but still there with a jog or two. Heh. Luke was good at starting the fire and then beating it just in the nick of time. I'll be at Garycon and expect those snacks...
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Post by tavis on Jul 16, 2010 19:27:41 GMT -6
I will investigate snacks which can be made in the shape of dice so that we can put 'em on the table in full view of the hotel staff.
I played a cleric who made glass globes full of holy water for use in a sling, and a set of blessed iron wedges for cauterizing wounds. I sat next to Luke, who patiently helped correct my inept mapping attempt.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 19:38:09 GMT -6
Ah Yes. IR now.
It was a great RP experience having everyone "create" a special magic item up front and on the fly, and everyone rose to the challenge, too. I found that the most intriguing aspect of the adventure, to tell the truth. The party had a tough fight (one of the toughest encounters on the level) and did better than most (those from NTRPGCon discovered that secret trap door the year before). To next year and those "diceable snacks".
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Post by havard on Jul 17, 2010 2:28:17 GMT -6
Great seeing you here Rob!
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 17, 2010 7:00:28 GMT -6
Got it, and thanks for the quick (and lengthy) reply! Now if people get "revisionist" I draw the line, but that's always been the stance with even Gary and David... I'll do my best to keep the heretics away.
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 17, 2010 10:55:20 GMT -6
I have upwards of 6 projects going at any given moment; my designs further themselves through a process of sustained creative output equal to each as a whole. For instance, if I reach a dead-end at any point with one, I suspend the design to let the next avenue percolate, and during such times turn to the next, where I go as far with that in the same manner, etc. During that creative immersion I may or may not get the hook back into the first one; and if I do I will then pick that up and go with it. For an example of this gift and curse, I will elucidate upon the design work I did for my adventure, Dark Druids. When TLG contacted me I said I had the bones of a 1975 Greyhawk outdoor/dungeon addie judged BitD. It was two color maps and apprx. 10 pages of notes and text. Of course TLG pressed me for an approximate page count (something rather absurd in my opinion, but I have thought that since day one while creating, so it is not a personal slight, just an artist's POV; kinda like asking a fine artist when his or her next masterpiece will be finished, and of course the answer is: when it's finished. But publishers will be publishers and true artists remain artists, and somehow in the chaos of pulling and pushing they work together for a shared goal, but not in the same manner over and over as one would assume). In any case, to satisfy the publisher request I stated 32 pages printed (or an "average" sized addie in print). It ended up, btw, much larger. Why? Because my creative juices would not stop flowing. And so here is a distinction in reverse; if you respect the source, you run with it. By comparison, if the source flees for a moment, I will not force the design to its end and I instead switch out until it returns; and it always returns because of this adopted mode. Therein lies an example for all so inspired, for truly inspired works withstand the test of time, or at least have a better chance of doing so. In any case, I respect the source and in return it respects me. As such inspiration is the only thing relevant in good or better design work, IMO, so I will not publish something just to say "DONE". This will disappoint some who feel that there is some "need" based on others' comparisons, but I will say that TLG in Dark Druid's case was overwhelmed and very pleased that I took longer to produce what they considered a true gem. Very well spoken. The only thing I can add is a personal anecdote. It took me about two years of pondering before I was able to start writing/compiling CARCOSA. Fortunately, my Muse stayed with me all during the months that it took to write. Since then, the Muse has been mostly absent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2010 13:33:27 GMT -6
Geoffrey. Hello and well met as always!
Amused about muses. They are tricky things; the point is to remain open and run forward like the dickens when they strike, and you never know when that is going to happen. But once you recognize them you always know thereafter when they are present. There is something in the thought of remaining 'honest to the source' at all times. I believe that MAR Barker, the Brontes and many, many others throughout the history of literature have experienced this most singular aspect and that is what makes suchworks rise and in turn withstand the test of time. One will never know the "truth" as I feel it is not meant to be understood on a rational level, just lived and experienced, and of course appreciated.
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delve
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Post by delve on Jul 20, 2010 10:54:10 GMT -6
Hiya Mr Kuntz!,
Glad to see you on this forum. I was wondering if you ever thought about getting help with your work in compiling old notes, organizing and editing. It would free up more time to focus more on newer projects. I think people are interested in the early material, due to the fact there is no proper published history to the game except what was in Dragon Magazine. Just to hear stories about the first adventures, the laughs the brain storming that went behind it all would be worth printing for such a successful game it's strange why this was never done. Is that what you are thinking about doing with your memoirs?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 16:50:32 GMT -6
Hi Delve, nice to see you here as well (as there). Yeh. If I were young again and had all the time to spare, everything I have thought of doing with my really over active imagination would come to pass. As it is, more than a few moments from those days have been covered on the net and in publications (EGG's UoaSB and the three I added to that in DRAGON), at DF, PPP forums (a treasure house) at my Blog and elsewhere. Perhaps it is time for a concerted effort to list all of these where they relate to EGG, Arneson and myself, and I leave that to the Historians and fans, of course. AS for the rest, yes, my memoirs will cover some but not all. It cannot cover the feel or the future oriented look we all had before then and afterwards; and in coming closer to this if the fans feel that they are going to conduct the whole through some osmosis, I fear that is not so, and has never been. There will be products as I mention where time allows, but the best the fans can do is to, IMO, look forward to new and exciting paths, as D&D, IMO, has been pretty well tread at least for me as a designer, and I know Gary and Dave would have agreed. So wait and see what life allows. But I am on, just as it was in every week of play testing new and exciting games in LG, I am on to newer and enticing vistas. And that is what true enchantment and the never ending quest is all about, eh?
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