Hit Points at First Level

[Finarvyn]

In the "3d6 in Order" thread several folks made comments about first level hit points. I thought it would be interesting to collect this as data, so I created a poll for it.

I don't always do it the same, and many of the ways I have handled HP are the options above. One of my favorite methods is to give full HP at first level and "average" HP (d4 is 2.5, d6 is 3.5, and so on) from there. It just seems random to roll for HP and then later to roll for damage -- maybe one of the two should be a fixed number.

One thing that bothers me about HP at first level is the fact that a really low value adds too much of a chance that a PC might die as a fluke, and I would rather have them "earn" death instead.

[coffee]

I voted for Max HP at first level. Yes, I know that's a 3d ed "innovation", but in my group we were already doing it back in the mid-80's. It just seems fairer.

[foster1941]

Roll at 1st just like any other, but re-roll 1s until they're something other than a 1.

[ffilz]

I'll not vote yet because I'm undecided. I had gone away from random hit points and random ability score generation, but as I look to starting an OD&D game, I'm starting to feel like the randomness will be good. Sure, someone who rolls 1 hp for 1st level will suck. Oh well, they'll either die fast and be replaced, or they'll survive against all odds, and in either case, there will be a story to tell (remember how Bob rolled 1 hp and was killed by a single giant rat...).

I might take pity if some poor player just keeps rolling poorly and quickly dying as a result.

These discussions always bring to mind an NPC I rolled for a college campaign (I tend to run GMPCs but let's not get into that here) using a home brew system. I rolled a low strength and a low constitution, but a decent dexterity. The character probably would have been thrown out by a player. That character managed to survive (the dexterity helping a lot, as well as the small size that derrived from the low strength and constitution the way the system worked). In the end, this frail NPC became a successefull character with stories to tell.

Frank

[Deleted]

Maximum HP at first level. For every level thereafter, maximum -2 applies.

[Rhuvein]

When I started with Holmes, we rolled everything BtB and pretty much followed the rules as written.

So when I returned to RPGs 3 years ago, I was surprised to see things like max HPs, max gold to start and roll 4D6s and drop the lowest and other stuff.

But, heh it seemed like everyone was doing it according to what I was reading on various forums and I was starting a new group with new to the game and young players, so I gave max HPs and max gold.

However, if I ran an OD&D game with my group, I would go with straight rolls for HP! ;D

[mahrundl]

I agree with Rhuvein. Somewhere on Dragonsfoot (I think), there's a description of a fighter character who rolled HP of something like 1, 2, 1, 3 for the first 4 levels. He had no bonus from Constitution either.

His player decided to try to get him killed so that he could roll another character. He got knocked unconscious in combat a few times, but was rescued and healed. Fairly obviously, from the HP listed above, he got past first level. And this fighter charged into combat all of the time. The rest of the party would yell "But you've only got 1 HP!", to which he'd reply, "1 HP is all I need!"

I can't remember the final fate of that character, but it seems to me that he would have been an absolute *blast* to play! Sure, his chances of dying quickly were fairly high - but that's a chance that you take when adventuring.

If that character had started with maximum HP, he'd most likely still have survived. But how memorable would he have been? Chances are, about as memorable as the average nth level fighter. But this guy? He starts making his own legend from day 1, and is positively inspirational. What are the odds that the player will ever forget this character's career?

I realise that most characters in this situation will die, and die fairly quickly. The question is: does the possibility of creating a lasting legend make it worth the times when it fails?

To me, it does - unquestionably.

[serendipity]

While I applaud your sentiments of glory, I have to wonder if this situation was fair to the rest of the party, who spent their time rescuing and healing the suicidal PC. Doesn't it sort of beg the question of rolling and keeping straight rolls if you intentionally kill off a character who isn't strong in some manner?

[Finarvyn]

mahrundl said:

I agree with Rhuvein. Somewhere on Dragonsfoot (I think), there's a description of a fighter character who rolled HP of something like 1, 2, 1, 3 for the first 4 levels. He had no bonus from Constitution either.

His player decided to try to get him killed so that he could roll another character. He got knocked unconscious in combat a few times, but was rescued and healed. Fairly obviously, from the HP listed above, he got past first level. And this fighter charged into combat all of the time. The rest of the party would yell “But you've only got 1 HP!”;, to which he'd reply, “1 HP is all I need!”;.

I suppose (from the perspective of a DM) that my enthusiasm for a player doing such things would depend upon the style of the campaign. If I was running a serious game and he kept doing that wahoo charge thing, I'd be pretty annoyed. This sounds like one of those stories that we can all laugh about now, but probably angered some players at the time.

I knew a guy who had a character with 1 hp left when he charged a demon. The GM whacked the character in a hurry, but wasn't willing to let him just roll a new one right away -- the guy had to sit out and watch for the rest of the evening for playing stupid. We all had a laugh at his expense.

Memorable, yes. Encouraged, no.

[angantyr]

Hi - new here but I figured I'd provide an off the wall suggestion for HPs at 1st level. What I would do for human/demi-human types is simply divide the character's Strength by 3, and drop fractions. Of course, one would add in any Constitution modifiers, and fighters would get +2 HP (if using the Greyhawk supplement, anyway). Might do the same for dwarves, as well.

For 2nd level and up roll HP normally as per the rules (M&M or Greyhawk)

From a game mechanics standpoint, it allows starting characters a base HP spread of 1 to 6, with an average of around 3-4 pts being most common, and a full 6 points being very rare (i.e. an 18 ST character), and 1 HP being pretty uncommon. Thus, robust individuals will be fairly robust, and feeble individuals feeble. Though you could have an unusual case with a 3-5 ST character with an 18 CON... but I don't see that as a problem. Of course, a ST18/CON 18 fighter would be pretty beefed up, but if you are rolling straight 3d6 in order to generate a character I don't expect that will happen all that often.

From a standpoint of dreaded "realism", the body's ability to absorb punishment is really more a function of body mass, which loosely cooresponds to one's ST score. Also, the weapon damage system in Greyhawk fits well with general HP range that would be generated.

As an aside, I dislike having 1 HP starting characters, unless they are supposed to be really feeble (i.e. Magic Users with low ST and CON). Makes no logical sense to have a robust fighter type with only 1 HP.

This seems like a workable system, anyway. Appreciate any feedback.

[philotomy]

I'm a softie on this. I grant maximum hit points at first level.

[jrients]

My friend Ray swears that in an AD&D campaign he once played an illusionist for nine levels, rolling ones for hit points every level. That's right, a ninth level illusionist with 9 hit points.

[Pierce Inverarity]

Max HP for me. I think this rule and a number of others (stingy XP) are designed for weekly play. If the 2-hp Thief you rolled up just now dies next week, it's not a big deal: "Ding dong, the wuss is gone, problem solved," as Hackmaster puts it.

But if like me you play once a month, that wuss, which must surely die, could be around for quite a while. Until, three months into the game, you find yourself back at square one. And then you roll up another wuss. Frustrating.

[philotomy]

Added to the "weekly-play" factor is the XP awards you use. The award scheme the TLB uses progresses low-level PCs much faster than the Greyhawk awards (which seem to be more commonly used -- perhaps because Greyhawk derides the original scheme as "ridiculous"). Weekly play with the original award scheme would help mitigate the "wuss" problem. I've never used the TLB award scheme, but I may try it at some point to see how it works out.

[crimhthanthegreat]

We roll Hit Points at first level the same as any other level with no re-rolls.

[Falconer]

I have always made 'em roll for HP at 1st Level just like any other, as a matter of policy.

If they roll a 1, I'll benevolently rule that clearly the roller's concentration was broken because so-and-so was talking, or because the music was playing, and let them try again (everyone now properly hushed). Repeat if necessary, though if they roll a 1 three times in a roll, then clearly "Gary Gygax hath spoken."

I really like how carefully these oh-so-mortal players need to play. 1st Level is a harrowing trial, but all the more memorable for it.

Although, in my upcoming Middle-earth campaign, I'm considering drastically slowing the allocation of XP, so that the players receive only a quarter of what they would otherwise get. Kind of like diaglo's games where the players are at 1st Level for apparently years on end! It fits better my concept of Middle-earth. But, in this case, some sort of an HP Kicker might be in order, to prevent characters from dying *quite* so easily. Especially since Clerics get no spells at 1st Level! Regards.

[crimhthanthegreat]

Are you running Middle-earth as an OD&D campaign? If you are you should start a separate thread for that in the Links and Resources forum. We would love to hear about that.

[dwayanu]

I like a set value of 3 for MUs, 4 for clerics and 5 for fighters. With Constitution mods, that gives a 2-6 range. Thus, every character has a chance to survive (or get killed by) a hit for d6 damage.

The situation of an MU having several times the HP of a fighter does not arise. The chance of getting killed by a single hit is 2/3 for MUs, 1/2 for clerics, 1/3 for fighters (assuming usual HP).

[thorswulf]

Well, I have mentioned my thief character with 2 hp elsewhere. My feelings about hit points are mixed. Give MU's and thieves max hp- they need all the help they can get! Fighters and Clerics should roll, but I would allow a reroll of 1 or 2, even these guys need some kind break at first level! If you are playing with neophytes who are kids, max hit points all around!

[ant]

Here's how I handled hit points at first level last game:
- Fighting-men get max hp
- Clerics get 3+1d3 hp
- MUs and thieves get 1d6 hp

This was done to
- reflect the martial training of fighters and, to a lesser extent, clerics
- still allow the chance of "tough" MUs and thieves

Note that I also had the "Unconscious at 0 hp, Death at -(level + 1) hp" house rule in place.

[dwayanu]

An excursion, related to ant's post:

I like the AD&D-style rule of being able to survive (although consigned to bed for a long while) if brought as low as -2 HP in a round. With d6 damage, that gives 1/2 chance of surviving a hit when down to 1 HP.

A corollary is that if brought below 1 HP then another HP/round is lost until given first aid ... and -10 (or -Con?) is certain death. I would also have rough treatment incur a chance of further loss ensuing until halted with more first aid.

All this strikes me not merely as enhancing survival chances but as adding flavor and challenge.

[Deleted]

I allow players to roll their hit die twice at 1st level and use the highest result.

They roll their hit die normally from 2nd level onwards i.e. no re-rolls.

[tgamemaster1975]

We roll hit points at 1st level and do not allow re-rolls at all. However, I do make an exception to this, if a player tells me that they want to play a barbarian style fighting-man where the emphasis is on agility and not AC, I allow max hitpoints at first level and every other level if he never wears armor. A lot of my players take that option.

[makofan]

I roll them at first level. I let fighters (only) re-roll if they get a 1