Making the stairs in Blackmoor Dungeon line up?

[tavis]

Has anyone done the project of figuring out how the staircases in Blackmoor Dungeon line up? I've scanned the maps in the First Fantasy Campaign and printed those in the ZG Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor, which I was sad to see are simply a re-draw of the FFC originals without a cross-section map or an explanation in the text of which staircases lead where.

My preliminary investigation of levels 1 and 2 suggest that there are some errors (some staircases should be listed as going both up and down), while some up staircases on level 2 don't exit at level 1, and some down staircases on level 1 go past level 2 to somewhere deeper.

If this is something that's already been worked out, I'd gladly put aside my tracing paper!

[tavis]

I've started using the image program GIMP to superimpose the levels. Ultimately I'll do a schematic of the corridors and staircases - with enough detail to understand their interconnections, but not enough to replace the commercially available maps - but so far the project isn't ready to leave the underdark.

Even from the first three levels that I've figured out, it's clear that this is the most spatially complex megadungeon I've ever seen; the subareas in Caverns of Thracia often span multiple levels, but each is limited in extent and usually have simply two or three entrances and exits. The levels in Blackmoor are large and broken by the cave-ins into small subregions that you often have to go up, then down, then across etc. to enter.

[Finarvyn]

An interesting project. I will be interesting in seeing what you end up with. It's been a long time since I tried to match up staircases, and I honestly don't recall how well I got them to fit together. I'll have to look at the maps again....

[tavis]

Well, I've now seen a more spatially complex megadungeon!. I'm thinking of doing a similar schematic for Blackmoor Dungeon, although since the levels are more tightly stacked like a layer cake this would look more like a zoom in of the Splendorous Deeps' Upper, Middle, and Lower Commons.

On reflection the FFC map is not as hard to use in play as I first thought. 80% of the staircases I've looked at so far do what you'd expect just by lining up the pages (none of the first six are rotated or more than an inch out of alignment) and guesstimating where it comes out on the level above or below. (A fair number of these are mislabeled as to whether they go up, down, or both, though.)

It's the remaining 20% that go down four levels in a stack; go down two levels, skip one, and re-emerge on a fourth; go up and emerge in a column that isn't marked as a secret door/stair on the map; go up to the surface (I presume) from many levels down; or go down without coming out yet anywhere I can see!

[tavis]

David Ross has done a great job of making the stairs in Glendower Dungeon line up on his page. Thanks to Geordie's D@D Glendower play report for turning me onto this!

[havard]

Apr 22, 2010 18:49:22 GMT -6 tavis said:

David Ross has done a great job of making the stairs in Glendower Dungeon line up on his page. Thanks to Geordie's D@D Glendower play report for turning me onto this!

Thanks for reminding me about this one.

Have you considered using a 3D design program to illustrate the Blackmoor Dungeon? There are some free ones available IIRC.

Havard

[aldarron]

The FFC maps are themselves very interesting because they contain little notes and markings that give clues to the dungeon not mentioned in the key. For example, room 29 on level 8 is marked “red eye orcs” but the key just has two were lions there. Curiosly the ZGG version map still has “red eye orcs” on its map but puts goblins in the room in the key.

Doors are an especially curious thing on the maps too. For reasons I’ve never understood, instead of drawing doors as a solid line on an angle as is done on normal blueprints, TSR dungeon maps always show doors as little squares. If you look at the FFC maps, Arneson has drawn lots of doors that look like the normal blueprint kind – solid lines on a little angle with a small circle indicating the hinge. But there is also lots of places where rooms have one or two small lines or what looks like a thin rectangle at the entrance way. Since these resemble the TSR style doors, I think most people, including the artists who did the ZGG redraw, just assumed these were regular TSR style doors. But there is no reason for Arneson to have drawn dungeon doors different ways unless they really were different kinds of doors. Most of these lines thin line and or rectangles are unmarked but on some there is a small note S.P. or Secret Passage. In the text, Arneson notes that secret passages are drawn as “thin walls”. What I think is that each one of these little rectangular “doors” and all the straight single or double lines going across corridors indicate secret doors and seemingly dead end corridors.

[tavis]

It also looks to me like some of the cave-ins show a cleared space running through them, as if someone had tunneled through the rubble, which the ZGG versions don't have.

The notation "Ghost Room" on a non-keyed and thus apparently empty room led to some enjoyable improv in one of my Gen Con Blackmoor Dungeons runs!

It seems to me that there was a progressive degradation of information each time the Dungeons were published: Arneson's own drawings probably spoke volumes to him, the FFC cartographer (or was it Dave?) glossed over some details and got others wrong IMO, and the ZG further irons out the evocative differences. Computer cartography trades detail and nuance for standardization and clarity; I'd love to see Arneson's original hand-drawn, play-annotated maps.

[havard]

Will you be making a revised version of the Dungeon Maps for us Tavis?

-Havard

[aldarron]

Oct 5, 2010 13:19:10 GMT -6 tavis said:

It seems to me that there was a progressive degradation of information each time the Dungeons were published: Arneson's own drawings probably spoke volumes to him, the FFC cartographer (or was it Dave?) glossed over some details and got others wrong IMO, and the ZG further irons out the evocative differences.

I suspect those might be Dave's original maps, or rather his first copies of what probably started as line drawings like the "expanded" part of level 5. In any case, its a safe bet that Dave prepared the dungeon maps in the FFC, because if you look closely at the handwriting it matches all the other handwriting on the artwork and other illustrations. Got to be Dave's.

[Red Baron]

I just went through the first four levels, and the only staircase that doesn't work is in the middle of level 4.

There are also one staircase on level 1, and two on level 2 that don't have any matching staircases on lower levels so far, but I suspect that's because they end on level 5 or below.

[justinalexander]

Anyone still have Tavis' GIMP file and would be willing to share?

I wish I was having the success Red Baron does, but the far west stair on Level 1 seems to go nowhere; there's a stair on Level 2 that goes up directly into the entrance chamber on Level 1, and I've got four stairs on the south side of Level 2 that are supposed to be going down, but don't go anywhere. (One might go to Level 5?) So I'm in the weeds on it.

[aldarron]

Justin, PM me. I have that and, um, much more.