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Post by snorri on Dec 8, 2009 11:41:05 GMT -6
.. just a thought about languages. When you roll for a highly inteligent character, you have to choose a lot of languages. Imagine you roll, like Black Dougall, a 18 (he speaks 3 different languages in the Moldvay's rules!), you got no less than 8 to choose, in addition to common and your alignement. And the choic is not that easy. The Arneson FFC rule absolutely makes sense for that: - Don't choose any language at start (apart automatical ones). - When you face a new language, written or spoken, roll 1d100. You got 20% to know it. - When you get your mawimum number of languages, no more reasons to roll. In FFC, there's no clear limit about numbers of languages, but the 20% apply to magic-users - others only have 5%. Note that the 20% is also the chance for a monster to speak common - so there's a suspicion the Arneson rules could have came first. So this version seems to makes sense in the OD&D frame.
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Post by tavis on Dec 8, 2009 11:57:40 GMT -6
I like that because choosing equipment and languages are among the most time-consuming parts of making a new PC. The equipment list is at least easy to hand to players, but I've never seen a good list for choosing languages. (I either say "choose whatever", and they reply "Robot Latin"; show them the list of creatures by alignment in Vol. I, and they pick Purple Worm; or we both forget, in which case we often give a 1-in-6 chance that they know it when they want to).
It'd be cool to do this for equipment too - a 20% chance that your backpack carries anything on the list. My game often has a dozen players of wildly varying levels of experience and inebriation, so I'm happy if I can make sure people mark off HP and spells; counting encumbrance is right out.
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Post by snorri on Dec 8, 2009 14:03:03 GMT -6
I love the 20% to get the thing you need in your bag - the perfect toonish rule. With my kender PC (sorry for DL-haters), it could come true! 20% of speaking purple worm is nice as well When needed, I generally roll languages randomly, in page B13 of the red box (.. that's why my favourite thief speaks Pixie fluently) or in AD&D DMG, p. 102 (... I had a paladin speaking Shedu.) Letting choose players is the worst thing to do, when a couple of dice can get more fun. For bags, I generally give a standard bag (as in B3).
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Post by Falconer on Dec 8, 2009 14:14:36 GMT -6
I like that sort of “retro-history” gaming. Rather than mapping out the character’s entire past before the game, which usually ends up being irrelevant and constricting, just explore his past as the game goes on. I’ve always allowed players to leave their language slots blank until whenever they wanted to fill one. The FFC mechanic is fine; it could be handled just as well by an on-the-spot ruling of what die to roll. (Or just give it to him.)
Just as an aside to tavis, I usually put off the whole “buying equipment” thing until we’ve done some roleplaying and gotten the ball rolling. You know, interrogated at the gate by the Corporal of the Watch, head to the Tavern to listen for rumors and have some food and drink, check in for a night at the Travelers Inn. THEN they head to the local Provisioner to barter and buy what they need for their adventure. Since equipment so vital to survival and success, and money is such a central motivator in the game (you need it to get equipment, but first and foremost we learned you need it to eat and sleep!), I wouldn’t make it more abstract. Except maybe at high levels where basic equipment is so trivially cheap that dealing with it is just an annoyance.
Just one more aside regarding inebriation: I typically don’t allow alcohol at my games. I know some people see that as antithetical to the idea of “an old-school bunch of adults just getting together for a little dice-rolling, har!” However, in my own experience I’ve only ever seen alcohol contribute negatively to the experience, never positively. It’s that simple. Regards.
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Post by geordie on Dec 8, 2009 14:37:37 GMT -6
I'm a lazy DM so I handle languages thus:
player: Do I know what the Orc's asking ?
me: roll 1d20 under your INT to have a grasp of what he says, as in, you know a bit of Orcish. Roll a '1' and you're fluent in everyday Orcish enough to reply to whatever he's asking.
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Post by deodanth on Dec 10, 2009 8:13:10 GMT -6
player: Do I know what the Orc's asking ? me: roll 1d20 under your INT to have a grasp of what he says, as in, you know a bit of Orcish. Roll a '1' and you're fluent in everyday Orcish enough to reply to whatever he's asking. And can the player rolling '1' then add Orcish to his list of known languages permanently?
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Post by makofan on Dec 10, 2009 9:19:53 GMT -6
I usually allow languages to "emerge" also
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Post by geordie on Dec 10, 2009 14:21:28 GMT -6
player: Do I know what the Orc's asking ? me: roll 1d20 under your INT to have a grasp of what he says, as in, you know a bit of Orcish. Roll a '1' and you're fluent in everyday Orcish enough to reply to whatever he's asking. And can the player rolling '1' then add Orcish to his list of known languages permanently? Yes. Actually a fairer way than having to roll 1 is saying a person has knowlede of the language to respond if they roll under half or a third of their INT.
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Post by Red Baron on Jul 22, 2014 17:19:29 GMT -6
When you encounter a new language, roll 1d20:
Above intelligence: gestures only Below intelligence: nouns only 3: one verb or preposition per sentence 2: fluent, with a bad monty python French accent 1: native fluency
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 22, 2014 23:30:05 GMT -6
When you encounter a new language, roll 1d20: Above intelligence: gestures only Below intelligence: nouns only 3: one verb or preposition per sentence 2: fluent, with a bad monty python French accent 1: native fluency That's a smarter variation on Raggi's answer in Lamentations of the Flame Princess. And it works. Or at least works better than the original conception. Languages in OD&D are broken. My solution would go in another direction: 1. Cut down on the number of foreign languages that characters know at start--except perhaps for pointy-headed intellectuals like Magic-Users. 2. Make them random, so players don't waste time stressing over them, and to give starting player-characters a potentially interesting and funny tick. "Your one extra language is Mind Flayer..." 3. Make the extra languages that monsters know more limited and random (within a certain space). This spawns more creative openings-why do those particular kobolds know Mind Flayer?-as well as making the few languages that player-characters might know more potentially meaningful.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 23, 2014 0:06:33 GMT -6
Languages in OD&D are broken. The rules aren't broken... Beware of folks who state opinion as fact. So both of us stated an opinion. Presumably each of us stated it because we thought there was a good chance it was a fact. I don't know, but if I thought my opinion probably wasn't a fact, I wouldn't state it. Do you follow a different philosophy? So I say A. You say Not A. And then you say, "beware" of people like me. Where do you get off being so rude?
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18 Spears
BANNED
Yeah ... Spear This Ya' Freak!
Posts: 251
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Post by 18 Spears on Jul 23, 2014 0:14:09 GMT -6
Where do you get off being so rude? Edit: you know what? I was out of line. Sorry.
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 24, 2014 13:42:59 GMT -6
When needed, I generally roll languages randomly, in page B13 of the red box Last time I had a PC to creat , I opted for this. But I also rolled for class, alignment and equipement
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 24, 2014 13:58:15 GMT -6
Just as an aside to tavis, I usually put off the whole “buying equipment” thing until we’ve done some roleplaying and gotten the ball rolling. You know, interrogated at the gate by the Corporal of the Watch, head to the Tavern to listen for rumors and have some food and drink, check in for a night at the Travelers Inn. THEN they head to the local Provisioner to barter and buy what they need for their adventure. Since equipment so vital to survival and success, and money is such a central motivator in the game (you need it to get equipment, but first and foremost we learned you need it to eat and sleep!), I wouldn’t make it more abstract. Except maybe at high levels where basic equipment is so trivially cheap that dealing with it is just an annoyance. I wondered once if the "starting money" roll could be used as some kind of seventh caracteristic in the same fashion as snorri suggests for languages. Don't by any equipement. Weapons and armor are determined by the result of the first and second dice ( 1: leather or no armor, 2: leather + shield, 3 chainmail, 4: ch+shield, 5: plate, 6: pl + shield _ 1: one small weapon, 2: one small weapon + ranged weapon (sling), 3: one small weapon + ranged weapon (bow /crossbow with ammo), 4: one small weapon + one medium weapon , 5:one small weapon + one medium weapon + one ranged weapon (bow /crossbow with ammo), 6: one small weapon + one two handed weapon) For miscellaneous equipement, when the need for a given object arises, make an "equipemen check"by Rolling a d20 under the "money" score (from 3-18): if the roll is succesful, the PC has the object needed. If not, well ...
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Post by Falconer on Jul 24, 2014 14:44:23 GMT -6
That would be great for a one-shot, but for the start of a campaign? I love the sort of nitty-gritty gaming, in which you keep track of your money and provisions down to the last penny and crumb of bread, and plan your excursions carefully, because you’ve been saving for that Plate Armor but d**n it, you need to stock up on oil flasks (or hirelings?) if you ever want a chance of getting past those giant rats. I love that sort of hunger that leads to unmanufactured motivation in the game.
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Post by kesher on Jul 25, 2014 8:16:57 GMT -6
...I wish I myslef could roll a d20 everytime I encountered ANOTHER language to learn.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 25, 2014 11:44:07 GMT -6
...I wish I myslef could roll a d20 everytime I encountered ANOTHER language to learn. Ain't that the case, though! My feelings on languages in D&D are colored mightily by the old Dragon article "LANGUAGES or, Could you repeat that in Auld Wormish?" by Lee Gold, from the Best Of The Dragon #1 (aka Supplement #5 ). Lots of options for new languages and new purposes for learning languages, like the guy who cursed in Balrog or the one who learned Mule so he could calm his pack animal in the dungeon. Or Wall: One of the ideas brought out in that article is the relationship between languages: In that line I went a while back and looked at the various speaking races from D&D and assembled a chart of linguistic relationships (see attachment). I have no idea now what I was thinking with the arrows; maybe influences between races? Attachments:
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Post by kesher on Jul 25, 2014 12:59:31 GMT -6
AND, some of the arrows point only one direction, while others point both... Awesome. I also greatly appreciate the Fiendish Folio influence going on there...
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 25, 2014 15:55:41 GMT -6
And what about alignment tongues?
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 25, 2014 19:18:23 GMT -6
I THINK the double-direction arrows show mutual exchange; thus Common probably has loan words from both Elvish & Dwarvish and vice-versa. Elvish is obviously derives from Ent-Speech and Goblin is a degenerate Dwarvish. (Thus you'd have a, say, 50% chance to understand goblins if you spoke Dwarf.)
I have no idea about alignment tongues; I've grown into the idea that they're not something I want to mess with and don't make a heck of a lot of sense. I DO though like the idea of a Dark Speech, used as an equivalent of Common among creatures of Chaos/evil.
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Post by Porphyre on Jul 26, 2014 14:02:52 GMT -6
I notice that teh Arrow goes from "entish" to "elvish" , which is the opposite to the "canonical" tolkienian version; Treebard states that it is the elves who taught to the ents how to speak.
Alignment languages could be integrated if you include various "undead tongues": methinks that such would be derived from chaotic...
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Aug 2, 2014 12:58:20 GMT -6
Found an old blog post that is of a mind with myself on a Chaotic "alignment tongue": I would go one step darker - merely hearing or reading Black Speech in its purest form has a chance of acting as a curse, changing one's alignment in the direction of Chaos.
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Post by Porphyre on Aug 2, 2014 14:14:40 GMT -6
Or, seeing the appaled reaction of the elves in the Council of Elrond when Gandalf quotes the Ring's inscription, hearing teh Black speech uttered by an character /monster of higher level causes automatic Morale check for NPCs and the effects of a Curse spell (-2 to hit rolls and saves) for PCs.
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