WTF?: Dexterity at 19 in AD&D 1st

[settembrini]

This MUST have a canonical solution:
Player rolls 18, assigns Elf as race => DEX 19. Where TF do I get the modifiers?

PHB, DMG and UA didn´t answer that obvious question. What did people do back then?

[Deleted]

We winged it. My personal house rule was disallowing ability scores exceeding 18. That was the max mortal humans and demi-humans could attain (18/00 in the case of STR).

When the DDG came out, it had rules for expanding the ability scores past 18, a lot of referees found those charts useful. If you really want a canon solution, this seems to fill the bill.

According to the DDG, DEX 19 gives ...

+3 reaction/attacking adjustment
-4 defensive adjustment
+15% picking pockets
+20% open locks
+10% locate/remove traps
+12% move silently
+12% hiding in shadows

For higher DEX or any of the other ability scores, check out pp. 6-7 of the DDG. HTH.

[Finarvyn]

One possible option would be to make use of an old article from Strategic Review #7 (1976) called Thief Bonuses for Dexterity. It was really short but mentioned "exceptional" dexterity in the manner of Grayhawk's exceptional strength.

The "article" is actually just a table with no text explaining whether it is for OD&D or AD&D.

Dexterity Score	Open locks / Remove traps	Climb Sheer Walls (base 13% falling)	Pickpocket, Move Silent, Hide in Shadow
3-4	-10%	+12%	-5 %
5-6	- 5%	+ 6%	normal
7-9	normal	normal	normal
10-12	normal	normal	normal
13-15	+10%	- 1 %	normal
16	+10%	- 1 %	+ 5%
17	+15%	- 2 %	+10%
18*	+20%	- 3 %	+15%
01-50	+20%	- 3 %	+15%
51-75	+25%	- 4 %	+15%
76-90	+25%	- 4 %	+20%
91-99	+25%	- 4 %	+25%
00	+30%	- 5 %	+30%

[Finarvyn]

Discussed on another thread if you want to look at the earlier discussion.

[settembrini]

Ah thanks! I also just found the Deities & Demigods tables.

[snorri]

I suspect this "1d100" table after a 18 score to be linked, in the history of od&d, to Barker's EPT (stats on 100) and to Dave Arneson's Blacmoor campaign, where it seems d100 dice has been more in use than in the published version of d&d (hps on a 100 basis, as suggested in Blackmoor, some quotes from FFC). It should be discussed

[Zulgyan]

Jun 12, 2009 8:41:27 GMT -6 settembrini said:

This MUST have a canonical solution:
Player rolls 18, assigns Elf as race => DEX 19. Where TF do I get the modifiers?

PHB, DMG and UA didn´t answer that obvious question. What did people do back then?

In AD&D's Deities, Gods and Demigods, you have the stat tables for all abilities from 19 to 25.

[coffee]

Jun 12, 2009 9:39:13 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

One possible option would be to make use of an old article from Strategic Review #7 (1976) called Thief Bonuses for Dexterity. It was really short but mentioned "exceptional" dexterity in the manner of Grayhawk's exceptional strength.

The "article" is actually just a table with no text explaining whether it is for OD&D or AD&D.

If it was in The Strategic Review, it was for D&D; AD&D didn't exist yet.

[settembrini]

Still I wonder what the millions of players in the early eighties did.

[Finarvyn]

Jun 13, 2009 3:33:04 GMT -6 settembrini said:

Still I wonder what the millions of players in the early eighties did.

1. Stats weren't that important back in the early days of the game. There weren't that many reasons to give a bonus, and the numbers weren't that large. The Greyhawk supplement pushed that up a little, but not at all like later editions.

2. Rather than giving extra plusses in combat or whatever, demihumans with high stats were allowed to advance to higher levels. This, of course, assumes that racial level limits are in place.

3. Men & Magic doesn't give demihumans any stat plusses, thus no 19's. I don't think that Greyhawk does, either.

4. In cases where a character went higher than my charts due to wishes or whatever, I would often just "wing it" and give them a bonus +1 higher than whatever my top value was on the chart. Of course that was a homebrew solution and not a "canonized" version, but we never stressed about those things.

5. The AD&D book Deities & Demigods stretched the charts up to stats of 25. As this book first came out in 1980, this gave us some guidelines pretty early on.

[settembrini]

Thanks a lot. Sounds like we almost have nailed it.

Though I´m a bit sceptical in regards to this:

1. Stats weren't that important back in the early days of the game. There weren't that many reasons to give a bonus, and the numbers weren't that large. The Greyhawk supplement pushed that up a little, but not at all like later editions.

We are talking about AD&D 1st, and there ought to be millions of players making characters on their own and wondering about what a nineteen yields in regards to bonuses.

[Finarvyn]

Oops. You got me on that one. As this is an OD&D board, I automatically shifted into "OD&D Mode" when answering. As you pointed out, it's an AD&D question in the "Other Editions" section. Right question, right place, wrong answer. :-(

[dwayanu]

Monster Manual II also includes the D&D/L&L ability-score tables, except the one for charisma. I think it was an editorial oversight (one of many) to leave the necessary information out of the PHB.

[settembrini]

I can´t fathom any reason for OSRIC to repeat that...

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2009 11:29:59 GMT -6 settembrini said:

I can´t fathom any reason for OSRIC to repeat that...

The intention of the OSRIC team was to recreate the original 1st Edition AD&D core books using legally available material (OGL/SRD).

The repetition you've suggested would have been a change. I suggested a few myself, but the editor-in-chief finally gave me the explanation above.

Nobody Few on the OSRIC team would claim the original core books were without flaws. The editorial decision was made to leave the flaws in.

Edited to correct minor oversight in wording ...

[settembrini]

I´m sure any flamewar that is thinkable has been wrought over OSRIC. So let me silently shake my head and leave.

Oh, BTW, does anybody have a link to a flamewar were they explain why there is no OSRIC hypertext SRD?

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2009 13:16:50 GMT -6 settembrini said:

I´m sure any flamewar that is thinkable has been wrought over OSRIC. So let me silently shake my head and leave.

I'm afraid my post was unclear, for that I must apologize. There was no flame-war among the folks working on OSRIC. In point of fact, we were a remarkably cohesive group.

Of course there was a bit of discussion regarding what should go in, what should not.

Some things were omitted because of lack of space, we were trying to keep it within a certain page count (the Aerial Agility rules, for instance, were a late addition to the document, and I was given a strict word count limit for the entry).

Some things were left off because the EIC decided that material was best left for a supplement dealing with those subjects. Generally speaking, anything dealing with higher level play was purposefully not included. Thus, "named" demons/devils, major artifacts (though minor ones were included), and planar travel were reserved for (one or more) supplements.

I hope this clears up any confusion my post my have given you.