Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 23:02:53 GMT -6
I'd like to nominate lair to indicate the primary dwelling of a monster or group of monsters that encompasses multilpe rooms, for example, a colony of humanoids inhabiting part of a level, or a single powerful monster with multilpe rooms, and possibly relationships with the monsters nearby.
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
Posts: 197
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Post by yesmar on Jan 22, 2009 2:44:25 GMT -6
The term underworld has special significance for me because of early exposure to E.P.T. The fact that one the the TLB uses the term in its title underscores it for me. However, you make an excellent point. It's a dungeon.
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Post by ragnorakk on Feb 27, 2009 15:40:17 GMT -6
Lair as defined above might be better called 'warren' or 'compound' or 'hive' (or that catch-all 'complex') becuse of the multiple-room stipualtion. A lair (to my understanding) can refer to one space - or that the word lair not necessarily imply multiple rooms. Animals lair, and these are often just secluded/sheltered areas, hollow trees, shallow caves, etc...
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Post by ragnorakk on Feb 28, 2009 15:55:36 GMT -6
and underworld can be synonymous with 'afterlife'...
not to be too pedantic - isn't that the point of this threat though?
constructively so...
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Post by ragnorakk on Mar 1, 2009 20:27:01 GMT -6
sorry - that's 'thread', not thread. doesn't look like anybody's into this... I like the idea though - there are so many nuances that all of these terms state and imply, but some 'common-sense' consensus would be interesting to build/see built. I agree with the distinction between room & chamber based on the means of entrance/egress, etc... In the end, yes, they are so many words, and if you feel like writing 'Throne Room' on your dungeon map, you don't have to have 'committee approval' for it (let's see - isn't that really just a chair?) - but I think it's intersting to suss out some points of distinction and similarity. So, my reactions up to this point: I'm ambivalent on the mega(or mega-)dungeon vs campaign-dungeon I vastly prefer choke point to pinch point. I believe this is probably something Freudian...  The opposite of choke point - 'hub' is good, though I infer that the points of ingress/egress are open - that a hub is a chamber by the above 'definition'. dungeon sections - I think that I've tended to use 'area' - section, to me, carries some hint of vertical relationship. But in thinking about it, I've more often used a term that addressed the function of that area (lair, temple compex (there's THAT word again...), empty area, ruined area, laboratory, necropolis, etc). But in trying to get to an abstract base for this concept, I am more comfortable with area over section. As far as outdoor encounters go, I have an easier time with areas of the outdoors than sections of them... Chute vs Slide - again I'm afraid I'm a little ambivalent here. Here's what wikipedia says: a vertical or inclined path, channel, or passage through which objects are moved by means of gravity. Chutes may be round, square or rectangular at the top and/or the bottom. Pretty inclusive - I don't feel like I can contribute much tot he conversation regarding differences So here are some pther things that have been brought up: Trapdoor - a door in the floor or ceiling, but not an open hole right? Stairway - that might be fundamental enough - but you can encounter stairwells - spiral staircases - ladders Domain - sounds to me like an area or a lair that is habitated and ruled by some definite agency/force/group/entity - and moreover implies (to me) that this rulership is stringent or really active. Wandering into the territory of the warchiefs might be dangerous, but infringing on the domain of THE warchief sounds like trouble... Complex - This one is just so wide open! It seems like it can be used to describe all kinds of things - at first I thought that it really heavily implied 'intelligent design/purpose' - but you can find reference to cave complexes, which were designed by water-erosion, etc - natural processes. I'm starting to revise my earlier opinions. It may very well describe a section or area that is discreet from the 'rest of the dungeon' adequately. And it is more evocate than area or zone (more a MUD thing there...) Primary and Secondary definitions for terms seem unavoidable to me in all but the simplest cases. Sorry I haven't got the gist of the quoting mechanism yet - I'm pretty new to board-use - and a post this long hurts to put up without better citation... I'll be thinking of more terms that have fuzzy definitions |
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Post by grodog on Jan 4, 2010 0:16:48 GMT -6
Two further notes on mega-dungeons nomenclature! 1. I've been fiddling with my overall levels descriptor nomenclature a bit again and a "hub" level---as I'm thinking of it---is one in which a number of long corridors, stairways, elevators, chutes, chimneys, and whatever other adits conjoin at various points within the overall dungeon architecture. A hub is basically the opposite of what I called a "landings level" around starting around December 2008, as it centralizes many disparate paths within the dungeon complex vs. spreading them out (the "take" in the give and take of a levels expansionistic tendencies). 2. Inspired by WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun's tiny and funky funky "levels" The Undertemple and The Black Cyst, I've been toying with sub-levels that are smaller than full sheets in size, and am proposing some further nuances to the levels nomenclature: - level = a full-sized dungeon level (a single sheet, regardless of the number of squares per inch on the sheet) - sub-level = a full-sized dungeon level as above, that's an off-shoot from a "main" dungeon level (whatever that means within the scope of your mega-dungeon) - a mini-level is a sub-level that's smaller than a full sheet of paper, probably no larger than 1/2 of a sheet or so; my newly-posted maps and my "sub-levels three" maps fall into this category - a micro-level is a sub-level that's smaller than a mini-level, probably not larger than a 1/4 of a sheet or so; the WG4 levels fall into this category Any thoughts, as always, are quite appreciated! |
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Post by harami2000 on Jan 4, 2010 3:12:42 GMT -6
- a mini-level is a sub-level that's smaller than a full sheet of paper, probably no larger than 1/2 of a sheet or so; my newly-posted maps and my "sub-levels three" maps fall into this category - a micro-level is a sub-level that's smaller than a mini-level, probably not larger than a 1/4 of a sheet or so; the WG4 levels fall into this category *g* For those two, demi-level might provide a more classical (and explanatory) tone for the former, perhaps; but that would leave the latter as a demisemi-level and I'm not quite so sure that's music to anyone's ears?  d. |
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Post by grodog on Jan 4, 2010 10:17:37 GMT -6
*g* For those two, demi-level might provide a more classical (and explanatory) tone for the former, perhaps; but that would leave the latter as a demisemi-level and I'm not quite so sure that's music to anyone's ears? I considered that David, but figured we'd want to avoid the whole Greater --> Intermediate --> Lesser --> Demi --> Hero --> Quasi --> Semi --> Para --> Etc. complexity  |
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Post by grodog on Jan 4, 2010 16:56:34 GMT -6
In the end, yes, they are so many words, and if you feel like writing 'Throne Room' on your dungeon map, you don't have to have 'committee approval' for it (let's see - isn't that really just a chair?) - but I think it's intersting to suss out some points of distinction and similarity. Oh, I agree completely: this isn't by any means a prescriptive effort, more just trying to sound out folks for input and possible term conflicts, and trying to resolve such conflicts (with existing or new terms). So, my reactions up to this point: I'm ambivalent on the mega(or mega-)dungeon vs campaign-dungeon Gotcha. I vastly prefer choke point to pinch point. I believe this is probably something Freudian... LOL  The opposite of choke point - 'hub' is good, though I infer that the points of ingress/egress are open - that a hub is a chamber by the above 'definition'. Hmmm, that's an implication/reading I hadn't considered. dungeon sections - I think that I've tended to use 'area' - section, to me, carries some hint of vertical relationship. That's what I thought, too. Hrmmm. So here are some pther things that have not been brought up: Trapdoor - a door in the floor or ceiling, but not an open hole right? True, and secret trap doors have always been annoyingly vague on maps since they're an S in a box which doesn't tell me if it's on the ceiling or floor  (Similarly, just how would you indicate a one-way secret trap door, hmmm? ). Stairway - that might be fundamental enough - but you can encounter stairwells - spiral staircases - ladders True. Do you see any issues that would need to clarify what's mean by a stairwell vs. staircase, then? Domain - sounds to me like an area or a lair that is habitated and ruled by some definite agency/force/group/entity - and moreover implies (to me) that this rulership is stringent or really active. Wandering into the territory of the warchiefs might be dangerous, but infringing on the domain of THE warchief sounds like trouble... Interesting: as I was reading your definition for domain initially, I was thinking "territory".... Complex - This one is just so wide open! It seems like it can be used to describe all kinds of things - at first I thought that it really heavily implied 'intelligent design/purpose' - but you can find reference to cave complexes, which were designed by water-erosion, etc - natural processes. I'm starting to revise my earlier opinions. It may very well describe a section or area that is discreet from the 'rest of the dungeon' adequately. And it is more evocate than area or zone (more a MUD thing there...) So, perhaps an alternative to "section" vs. "area" then? I'll be thinking of more terms that have fuzzy definitions Thanks ragnorakk, if you've come up with others since your first posts, please do share them! |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jan 12, 2010 18:31:51 GMT -6
I'm late to the party, but here are my answer to the OP.
I don't think there needs to be a term here to differentiate the two. Players are never "outside" of a dungeon. A dungeon doesn't need to be an underground complex of passageways and/or rooms. This is something I'm writing about in my articles for Fight On!
Pinch points sound like Choke Points. I would look at related academic disciplines for terminology that fits. Technically, any single pathway is a choke point. However, I would like to strongly point out: choke points are never the only way to go. A dungeon wall is simply the entrance to a path not easily taken.
Hub sounds like a good term for multiple easily taken paths. This should probably be differentiated from a Turn and at minimum requires a T-junction.
Sub-level is a section. I don't see the difference between these two terms. If you mean a section with multiple dungeon levels (i.e. "challenge levels") within, then this may allow for some more specificity in terminology. But I wouldn't get carried away with making languages unless you spell them out in your products. (Personally, I like Region for both) For example, Section - a mostly self-contained area within one dungeon level. Sub-Level - a mostly self-contained area spanning multiple dungeon levels.
Room sounds like any easily blockaded chamber. I wouldn't attempt to differentiate the two. "Room" is a widely used term. Attempting to make it a subset of "Chamber" means calling A LOT of dungeons Chamber Lists on the number legend. Something I'd probably just called the Room Legend.
Your definition of Chute sounds like a corridor. A Stairway is the generic nomenclature for a corridor that connects two dungeon levels. I understand it isn't very useful as dungeon levels ("challenge levels") certainly do not need to be based upon elevation, but rather game rules. But stairway and many other similar terms are commonly used.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jan 22, 2018 10:18:58 GMT -6
Necromancy cast Rereading this thread again and the ones over at K&K made me realize I'd developed a new term since then and had not shared. Connections - This is my go to word for many of the ways my designs integrate together into the overall campaign design. - It replaces Exit and Entry for most of the spatial maps, which were terms suggesting a direction. Something I felt was out of place. To clarify, this isn't just about stairs to levels above or below, but connections by any means between largely self-contained designs. Ones I can internally balance, set in motion, and rate for difficulty all before connecting the blocks together. What traverses and changes these designs because of each particular connections differs, but by treating these effects singularly I can more easily account for them. I can simplify the results of player game play in outlying areas and carry over potential consequences when they reach particular thresholds. I think the most obvious example is of roads overland, which many dungeon-minded people think are not connections at all but simply the faster routes. But that's exactly what every path on a traditional dungeon map is too. If I wanted to go slower, I'd go through the walls. Travel occurs all sorts of ways, but accounting for "non-traditional travel" should be part of the connections table too. I mean, nobody ever expects a purple worm, but what a shock when they do show up! |
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Post by grodog on Jan 24, 2018 0:46:38 GMT -6
Hi David: do you mean that Connections are sort of like the boundary markers where you'd start to insert warnings for large/dangerous predators---the drained husks of dead victims for wights, dismembered victims for werewolves or trolls, etc.? Or do you mean that they're the "highways" that bridge the gaps between different sections/areas of a level, or between a level and a sub-level?
Allan.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jan 24, 2018 8:34:42 GMT -6
Well, not to discount the first, but I did mean your second definition.
B2 is the only well designed campaign starting module I can think of - at least by my own terms. It is a module, so it is its own self-balanced design rounded by the Overland Map. However the Keep and the Caves of Chaos are also self-contained modular elements. They don't just balanced internally though, they balance each other (and the module in that way). Both also connect to the main road and terrain where it's easier to get lost in.
Lairs I might treat separately too, but like rooms or territories on a dungeon map they are already part of a well integrated, larger work. No need to get too complicated for each (unless they are). I work to the monster. Technically speaking that includes the Keep & Chaos Caves. Because HUMANS are the back breaker terms of lair/dungeon and cultural designs. You can see they actually rule both areas.
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(Similarly, just how would you indicate a one-way secret trap door, hmmm? 