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Post by geoffrey on Jan 16, 2020 20:01:23 GMT -6
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Post by doublejig2 on Jan 16, 2020 22:37:15 GMT -6
The Simarillion
R.I.P. Christopher Tolkien
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 1:25:37 GMT -6
Rarely do people of his age die and you get the feeling that they would have had more to give. With Chris Tolkien, that's the case:
In a better world, he should have been able to keep publishing more books until well into his 120s. - A good man! Sad to see him go.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 17, 2020 1:51:28 GMT -6
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 17, 2020 8:59:49 GMT -6
LONDON (AP) – Christopher Tolkien, who played a major role protecting the legacy of his father’s The Lord of the Rings series, has died. He was 95.
The Tolkien Society and HarperCollins UK confirmed his death but no details were provided.
Tolkien’s life work was closely identified with that of his father, J.R.R. Tolkien. He helped edit and publish much of his father’s writings after the science fiction and fantasy master died in 1973.
Among the books he worked on were The Silmarillion, The Children Of Hurin, and other texts that flesh out the complex world his father created.
He also drew the original maps that adorned the trilogy of books released in the 1950s.
Tolkien Society chairman Shaun Gunner said “millions of people around the world will be forever grateful to Christopher for bringing us” so many of his father’s literary works.
“Christopher’s commitment to his father’s works have seen dozens of publications released, and his own work as an academic in Oxford demonstrates his ability and skill as a scholar,” he said. “We have lost a titan and he will be sorely missed.”
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 9:18:38 GMT -6
Merged the two threads.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 17, 2020 9:40:27 GMT -6
I have never heard of such filial devotion before. Christopher published The Silmarillion in 1977, and The Fall of Gondolin in 2018. He devoted roughly the last half century of his life to editing his father's papers.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 17, 2020 12:44:37 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Jan 18, 2020 7:29:11 GMT -6
I have never heard of such filial devotion before. Christopher published The Silmarillion in 1977, and The Fall of Gondolin in 2018. He devoted roughly the last half century of his life to editing his father's papers. Yeah, that was the interesting thing about CT. He was never interested in writing new things, but provided a lifetime of scholarship in transcribing the layers of his father's work. He was very unique in that regard, I'm thinking. |
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Post by Falconer on Jan 19, 2020 18:40:19 GMT -6
Yeah, really amazing, JRR’s output was so vast that it’s actually a blessing that he didn’t stop to polish most of it for publication, just kept on writing. It’s a blessing because CJR devoted his life to getting it published. What humility, and what a perfect combo! Took a picture of my Christopher-edited books; realized afterwards that I missed three which I do own (and two which I do not).  I probably spent about as much time reading these books as all the rest of world literature combined. Amazing stuff! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 3:49:42 GMT -6
...And what's your favorite of them all, Falc?  By Hextor, those are exquisite editions! I'm not sure about "The Silmarillion", but "Unfinished Tales" is a 1st edition, correct? |
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Post by Falconer on Jan 20, 2020 11:00:07 GMT -6
By Hextor, those are exquisite editions! I'm not sure about "The Silmarillion", but "Unfinished Tales" is a 1st edition, correct? They’re all U.S. first editions, except the last line, which are deluxe editions (but they came out at the same time as the trade editions, so they are still firsts, just not all U.S.). ...And what's your favorite of them all, Falc? is my favorite book in all the world (edging out The Worm Ouroboros). |
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Post by angantyr on Jan 20, 2020 11:10:25 GMT -6
...And what's your favorite of them all, Falc? By Hextor, those are exquisite editions! I'm not sure about "The Silmarillion", but "Unfinished Tales" is a 1st edition, correct? I am not Falc, but I'd place a vote for "Unfinished Tales" since many of those tales were, in fact, finished or at least very nearly so, and provided an awful lot of additional background for what were then the published works (specifically LotR and Silmarillion). For example the chapters "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields", "The Istari", and "The Palantíri" in particular really ought to have been Appendices in the published LotR, since the provide an awful lot of missing detail. Also, I believe UT has the map of Numenor buried somewhere in its pages. But all of these books are valuable. One wonders what the Silmarillion would have looked like had Christopher been able to organize all of these voluminous writings before embarking on the "final" Silmarillion. Certainly the recent publication of Children of Hurin, etc. give some fair idea. |
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Post by angantyr on Jan 20, 2020 11:11:44 GMT -6
...And what's your favorite of them all, Falc? By Hextor, those are exquisite editions! I'm not sure about "The Silmarillion", but "Unfinished Tales" is a 1st edition, correct? This is a pic of the first UK edition of Unfinished Tales: Attachments:
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Post by Falconer on Jan 20, 2020 14:07:57 GMT -6
Interesting question! It’s probably well-known that Christopher grew to regret his level of ‘invention’ in the published (1977) Silmarillion. So, I think regard to your question, given Christopher’s sensibilities, and judging from his recent publications, he would have selected from his father’s written texts something as coherent and complete as possible, and presented it as-is, followed by explanation and commentary about where the story came from and where it was going. But what texts would he have chosen? In Tolkien’s Legendarium, Charles Noad presents two different outlines of what he thinks JRRT’s Silmarillion would have included if it had been published in his lifetime. The first scenario is that, prior to The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien had, in fact, submitted some of his ‘Silmarillion’ material for publication; so, what would the book have looked like if it had been accepted then?  The second scenario is if Tolkien had lived longer and been able to finish the book according to his plans as they were trending at the end of his life:  Back to your question. Personally, I think it’s obvious that Christopher would have gone with the former outline. Let us draw an analogy from his recent publication of Beren and Lúthien. Despite there being a wealth of later writings on the subject, he picked his father’s earliest version, because it was the only complete version. Likewise, with the Silm, I think the only path that would have been acceptable to him would be to publish the early/middle period texts, because at least they could be presented complete with minimal contradictions and almost no editorial intervention or invention.
By the way, this would also have left room for one more very important standalone publication, one dedicated to the Númenor cycle. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 21, 2020 0:43:12 GMT -6
I used to be an avid collector of the Histories. I once asked for The Lays of Beleriand in a bookstore during the late 80's. "What a title!" the clerks responded. I suspect they thought I was looking for some weird porn!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 5:29:31 GMT -6
I used to be an avid collector of the Histories. I once asked for The Lays of Beleriand in a bookstore during the late 80's. "What a title!" the clerks responded. I suspect they thought I was looking for some weird porn! Like, you got "lay-ed"?  ...I'll see myself out. |
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Post by Zenopus on Jan 21, 2020 10:40:43 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 19:26:39 GMT -6
The Book of Lost Tales is my favorite book in all the world (edging out The Worm Ouroboros). Hehehehe. Nice. Which of those tales is your favorite, if you have one, at all? Personally, as you know, my own relationship with Tolkien is probably somewhat complex: I was essentially raised on MERP, but - largely due to the language gap, I guess - I didn't find my way into Tolkien's writings as a younger guy. I remain pretty fond of the books, though, "Children of Hurin" being one of the few novels that I liked so much that I first bought it as a paperback, only to later buy the hard cover. I cherish the BBC audioplays featuring Ian Holm, and I still have tremendous fun even with Tolkienian pastiches like "The Last Ringbearer", or the positively dreadful "The Iron Tower". The "core" Tolkien material, though, never quite sung to me like it seems to sing to other people. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 22, 2020 2:09:39 GMT -6
I used to be an avid collector of the Histories. I once asked for The Lays of Beleriand in a bookstore during the late 80's. "What a title!" the clerks responded. I suspect they thought I was looking for some weird porn! Like, you got "lay-ed"? ...I'll see myself out. That seemed to be what they were thinking, as opposed to ballad/story. I guess I expected them to understand what I meant, but perhaps I was more into medieval literature than they were. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 7:52:24 GMT -6
Like, you got "lay-ed"? ...I'll see myself out. That seemed to be what they were thinking, as opposed to ballad/story. I guess I expected them to understand what I meant, but perhaps I was more into medieval literature than they were. One of the reason why I think that modern bookstores don't work is that modern bookstore clerks, for whatever reason, don't seem to read. A bit like in that scene in "Se7en", when Somerset visits the library, and all the guards are playing poker. - Like, any good salesperson needs, more than anything else, a personalized relationship to the ware he or she is selling to be convincing. And if that's possible for my d**n insurance agent, it GOT to be possible for the guy who sells me my pulp mags!  |
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Post by Falconer on Jan 22, 2020 8:16:06 GMT -6
Which of those tales is your favorite, if you have one, at all? It’s really the whole. The framing story (Eriol/Aelfwine), the stories of the gods, Tinúviel-Turambar-Nauglafring as an interconnected cycle, the main showpiece ‘The Fall of Gondolin,’ and the tantalizing fragments and outlines which really push the boundaries of the mythology (Gilfanon’s Tale, Eärendel). Out of all of these, I might have to single out the stories of the gods in Part One, but that is still multiple stories (pretty much the bulk of Part One). I feel like no-one ever really talks about those, but they really captured my imagination. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 22, 2020 9:26:23 GMT -6
My personal favorite of the posthumous Tolkien writings is "The Quenta" published in The Shaping of Middle-Earth (1986). It is the only version of the old tales that J. R. R. Tolkien finished. It was also the contemporaneous version when he was writing The Hobbit.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 22, 2020 9:36:02 GMT -6
I think that if J. R. R. Tolkien had been able to finish his accounts of the First Age, they would have been quite different in feel and in detail than what we read in his posthumous writings.
Compare, for instance, the very different feel of "The Fall of Gondolin" from the later, abandoned account in Unfinished Tales.
Or Read "Myths Transformed" in vol. 10: Morgoth's Ring. The texts contained in this section detail J. R. R. Tolkien's plans late in life to jettison some of what he and I consider to be unfortunate aspects of his mythology. In these papers, Tolkien noted that the Elves received their cosmogonic knowledge from the Valar, who were present at the beginning of the solar system. Obviously such angelic intelligences would know good and well that the sun and moon are not fruits from trees. Tolkien noted that such mythology which contradicts basic astronomical facts simply will not do. He made some passes at re-writing the tales of the very early days on the assumption that the knowledge of modern astronomy is true within the legendarium.
Thus, Morgoth makes use of smokes and volcanoes to spread darkness. Instead of the sun and moon being made from the two last fruits of the Two Trees, the Valar first reveal these celestial bodies to the Elves by the use of winds to clear Morgoth's foul smokes from the air. Etc. Unfortunately, Tolkien never got very far with this line of thought. I would prefer to get rid of the unscientific notions of the sun and moon, and also to jettison the idea of the earth originally being flat, and to drop the idea of the Morning and Evening Star being Earendil with a Silmaril rather than the planet Venus.
That sort of thing. Tolkien was not afraid to make fundamental revisions to his histories when he discovered infelicities therein. Indeed, that is a major reason why they remained unpublished at his death, in spite of spending well over half a century working on them.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 22, 2020 12:02:09 GMT -6
To me it’s just SO awesome that he wrote both versions of the myths (to the extent that he did). I love the mythological writings in which magic ships sail upon the seas of the upper airs. I love the later astronomical version, too. I love how he repurposes the characters of the gods and such ideas as Melkor’s assaults on the moon. So beautiful and epic.
It’s also neat to compare “The Fall of Númenor” with “The Drowning of Anadûnê,” because he considered them to represent the Elvish tradition and the Dúnadan tradition, respectively.
Also there’s differing Elvish and Mannish concepts of mortality, there’s the Elvish idea in ‘Ainulindalë’ that it’s a gift, and the Mannish idea expressed in ‘Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’ that it’s a curse.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 23, 2020 14:27:00 GMT -6
That seemed to be what they were thinking, as opposed to ballad/story. I guess I expected them to understand what I meant, but perhaps I was more into medieval literature than they were. One of the reason why I think that modern bookstores don't work is that modern bookstore clerks, for whatever reason, don't seem to read. A bit like in that scene in "Se7en", when Somerset visits the library, and all the guards are playing poker. - Like, any good salesperson needs, more than anything else, a personalized relationship to the ware he or she is selling to be convincing. And if that's possible for my d**n insurance agent, it GOT to be possible for the guy who sells me my pulp mags! Also a lot of books in the shop aren't Puilitzer-winning material. I remember one of my Classics professors in college recounting his latest visit to a bookstore. IIRC, his comment was that they sold everything but actual ideas. To get back on subject, it's a tough choice to decide my favorite. I have the Unfinished Tales, as well as the first 5 volumes of the Histories. I need to complete my collection. As an aside, has anyone else read the Iron Tower Trilogy? While derided as LOTR with the serial numbers filed off, it was originally meant to be a sequel. The Tolkien Estate denied the rights. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 24, 2020 10:31:38 GMT -6
To me it’s just SO awesome that he wrote both versions of the myths (to the extent that he did). It is indeed a gift that we have available to us all the major versions of Tolkien's legendarium. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 9:15:26 GMT -6
Which of those tales is your favorite, if you have one, at all? It’s really the whole. The framing story (Eriol/Aelfwine), the stories of the gods, Tinúviel-Turambar-Nauglafring as an interconnected cycle, the main showpiece ‘The Fall of Gondolin,’ and the tantalizing fragments and outlines which really push the boundaries of the mythology (Gilfanon’s Tale, Eärendel). Out of all of these, I might have to single out the stories of the gods in Part One, but that is still multiple stories (pretty much the bulk of Part One). I feel like no-one ever really talks about those, but they really captured my imagination. Yeah, the creation of Middle Earth up until the theft of the Silmarils and Morgoth's flight to Middle-Earth (not sure if I'm misremembering events here) was always the part of the book that I liked the most. The later part of the Silmarilion suffers a little bit from the fact that the whole Hurin-Turin-Gondolin circle of stories seem to essentially have been a writing exercise. - Now, don't get me wrong, I do love them, but I'm quite happy that Chris Tolkien kept them under lock and key from the Hollywood crowd: "The Children of Hurin" (the book) was a round story, the older versions just plainly were not. Unimaginable what the people that wanted to morph Eowyn and Arwen into the same character would have done to it.  By the way, have you seen this: www.evanpalmercomics.com/ainulindaleA graphic novel rendition of the Ainulindale. A thing of beauty.  |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 26, 2020 21:49:06 GMT -6
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Post by tkdco2 on Mar 29, 2020 2:08:42 GMT -6
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