Subforum closing - please save your content!!

[Deleted]

Hi all,

After a long time of enduring behind-the-scenes arguments, Gronan/Michael Mornard has apparently decided to delete his account at OD&D'74. Consequently, the section of our board that was dedicated to him is likely to see some changes in the coming weeks:

While the last word on the matter has not been spoken yet, as most of us mods are busy with this year's holiday preparations, the most likely direct outcome of this is that we're going to archive the "Gaming with Gronan" sub-section of the board, at least until further notice. This is going to happen after an appropriate waiting period, to give you time to save your content - but it likely will happen soon. January 6th of the coming year seems like a reasonable date, for example. - The posts won't be deleted after that date, but we'll likely remove them out of the view of the general public, or at the very least give them a much less prominent spot within the forum.

As to the specific reasons for Gronan's rather sudden departure from OD&D'74, well, of course we do not know for sure. We assume that he was displeased with having recently received a temp-ban for an "ad hominem"-attack against another fellow user, an offense that, by itself, usually wouldn't have been worth more than a light tap on the nose. However, in our internal, ongoing conversation with Gronan, it marked the last in a long series of incidents where we had had to admonish him because of his continued - and increasing - hostile, condescending and even outright hysteric behavior towards other members of this community. We had warned him multiple times just this year not to act this way, and he had ignored these warnings; so, this time, we decided that yet another warning would likely have no effect on him anyway, and acted.

We thank Michael for his positive contributions to this community. We certainly wish him no ill will, and we encourage those of you who wish to interact with him to do so at the many other websites he frequents. Most certainly, you all can be sure that our team here isn't happy that he decided to leave, like we wouldn't be happy about any long-term member leaving. But at the same time, if the reason for Gronan deleting his account should really turn out to be that we had been objecting to his acrimonious behavior towards anyone with whom he was having even the mildest difference of opinion, then he probably couldn't have stayed either.

Yours,

Rafe

[clownboss]

Oh man, no, that sucks, now what about that game-over-mic-chat that Mike proposed so long ago? It'd be nice to have the posts placed somewhere within the forum anyway, there's a lot of history and insight from Mike's stories. At the very least I did write down all the important takeaways I've had, which helped me understand a lot of things about OD&D.

I am quite saddened that Mike's rough behaviour persisted through these many months, and if he still can not learn to mingle with the crowd, then I'm afraid he really can not stay here even in spite of his privileged position. He has probably hurt some people, but the Mike I'll remember has been a cool old uncle that helped me relish in the knowledge of history, fantasy, and this unique hobby, and has helped me grow and develop in that field. I was always waiting for that day he would hold his campaign over Skype and we could talk face-to-face to each other. For my money I can say that he has never attacked me and that I have not once felt insulted by him, and that all the quips he has ever given were zingers to laugh with and provide knowledge, not to target someone. But these experiences are mine only and not someone else's, and it's not to say that this in any way invalidates what someone else might have gone through.

If Mike's reading this, I just hope he'll realise that being worried of keeping your right to be rude is just very petty, and that being nice to people is easy and effortless. You can be just as insightful, helpful, humorous, and keep your own kind of identity without ever targeting people. It's the kind of behaviour that people associate with old RPG players and is the reason why they tend to steer away from it. Come on Mike, the kids need you.

[chicagowiz]

I'm putting my historian hat on and thinking about how valuable the posts from "those-who-were-there" to folks doing research or even writing rules. Having just crawled thru krusader74's Chainmail retroclone/hacks and seeing how invaluable Mike's input was on those, I would strongly advocate for the "give them a much less prominent spot within the forum" option, as well as some sort of breadcrumb for those who are doing the research to easily find them.

As an aside, I think that the older generation has the hardest time adjusting to the Internet and to the constant influx of what probably feels like the same question.

Just my 2 coppers...

[Finarvyn]

Both Michael and Jeff have suffered from the frustration that so many folks today don't understand how it was then, and both have since left this board for various reasons. My feeling is that they both have it all wrong -- the only way to teach a new generation about the old days is to be at places like this and do it. I have my own stories of the old days, but theirs are better because they played extensively with the Founding Fathers and thus can give direct wisdom about the origins of the game.

My hope is that these parts of the board will be preserved so that folks can read them if they like.

[Deleted]

Gaaah. So, mod squad captain for the last five years, I just learned that Proboards announcements are "global" announcements. - Sorry folks, it's not meant to be as melodramatic an affair, really.

As I said above - and as I now see that Fin wrote while I was trying to word this post - we're all pretty unhappy that it had to come to this:

Michael's urge to disavow our community is the last of a series of incidents in which a few noteworthy veterans of the hobby essentially "quit the web" because of some sort of perceived personal frustration. You will find that my text from above echoes what the admin of DF wrote after Frank Mentzer's final exit there a few years ago - because it's really the same situation: You are what you do. If you think you are a personal asset to anyone, then you need to act like one, or accept that people will stop treating you like one. - But these singular cases where a few "harbingers" apparently had to be "unheeded" should not distract from the fact that most serious online debates, particularly where veterans from the days of yore are involved, are based around mutual respect and understanding. Look at my very own "Comeback Inn", look at the "Piazza", or at many threads from over on EnWorld: Just not that big of a deal, really, as long as efforts from all sides are made to make things work out.

- And that simply wasn't the case with Michael, especially lately: Michael had, what, 2.500 posts here, and he should still be a regular on a couple of other boards. He's not a rookie, he's not "adjusting", he was not "under attack", nor "under scrutiny", and he was not personally asked that great deal of many things, either, if we're being brutally honest. So, he could simply have stayed out of discussions that upset or bored him; but he chose not to. He just chose to act a certain way because that's how he apparently regarded his "VIP" status here - not as a gift of honor, but as a "free pass" to behave like he bloody wanted. And that's not going to work out; not "not with us", just simply "not ever".


I don't want to be too harsh on Michael, and I hope he still has a change of heart: But this was not a simple case of "OK Boomer" where there would have been one particular misunderstanding that people got emotional over: This was him coming to this forum like others would step into a boxing ring - looking for a fight. And like in boxing, however good your own punch may be, if you have to step into the ring, expect to be hit.

[tetramorph]

The departure of gronan makes me sad.


____


What is meant by "save your content"? Is this content going to be deleted? Why would we do that? Could we not archive this content?

[Finarvyn]

I don't think any content save will be needed. When Rafe posted we were still trying to figure out our plan, and at one point we had considered locking everything up. Looks now like we won't take that route.

[doublejig2]

I for one shall miss Gronan's berating of other people. Crom's testicle! That was his remark to one of my posts. He would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids...

Scooby do!!!

[derv]

I guess I'm not going to keep my big mouth shut. I wasn't going to comment and I'm certainly not going to single Michael out since he can't comment. But, the reality is that every time one of the old guard goes off the rails and stomps off in a huff over some perceived slight, they leave an impression on the hobby. Not just about them, but about all of the old guard. The outcome is people stop asking them questions, speculating instead (which I think is just fine), and the original players adopt a "you don't know squat" attitude that ultimately ends in everyone saying who gives a crap what you think. This is really unfortunate for those of us who play the original game because we are such a small niche of the hobby. It is also unfortunate for the original players because it's part of their legacy.  When people leave this site I have to wonder where they are going to talk about the original game if they're not talking about it here? Yeh, I know there are some little sub forums on other sites and there are some sites dedicated to specific aspects or settings in the original games. But d**n, if you're serious about the original game, this is the place to be. And when I say original game I'm talking about the LBB's.

Huff...huff...okay...okay...rant over.

[Finarvyn]

Dec 21, 2019 19:12:17 GMT -6 derv said:

I know there are some little sub forums on other sites and there are some sites dedicated to specific aspects or settings in the original games. But d**n, if you're serious about the original game, this is the place to be. And when I say original game I'm talking about the LBB's.

My point exactly, but I think you said it better than I did. Several of the old guard are unhappy that no one listens or no one cares, but then they abandon one of the few places where folks actually listen and actually care. Very frustrating.

[Deleted]

See, guys, I don't want to get too hung up on the issue either, since Mornard isn't here any more to talk for himself - but I think it most decidedly isn't true that especially his recent behavior is in any way representative of the overwhelming majority of first-hour RPG veterans:

Most of these "true" oldschoolers are pretty chill, friendly people that are not shy or in any way diva-like about sharing information, or about the way they expect others to treat them. What they usually won't do, though, is to tell you that "they got it all figured out", or pretend that their early experience with the hobby was anything but them attending "game night" at a friend's house. Many of them have themselves worked in the field of game design, and more than just sporadically, and many of them have kept gaming over the last five decades. - And these people are still accessible to us without perpetual theatrics and drama. What they are not, though, is necessarily "looking for an audience", or to become their own "personal brand".

The biggest challenge people like Mornard pose for our hobby is that they signal to these peers from the days of yore that a calm and civil exchange with the modern fans of the hobby isn't possible - when what's really happening is that it's not possible for them. - So, what we should not do is to implicitly accept their narrative, either: There is an alternate reality somewhere in which Mornard chose to give a d**n about the oldschool community, instead of just using it as a stage to play out his own increasingly tiresome sideshow act. And in that reality, he is still welcome here. That's what people need to get.

[rustic313]

Just wanted to say I have a tinge of melancholy over starting the thread that lead to the temp ban hammer getting swung.

I personally am not offended by rough around the edges posters, and while I wasn't the target of Michael's remark in the thread that got him hammered, I don't think I would have been offended had he been directing his remarks at me.

On the flip side there is a role for civility in discussion among those who share a passion for a similar hobby.

[Finarvyn]

Don't blame yourself. I like Michael a lot and have championed his cause for a long time. In the past all he needed was the occasional reminder to be more civil and he usually has complied. This was his first time-out and it was a result of a lot of small things over a long time and not a single thread or a single post. The fact that he chose to escalate it and leave the boards isn't on you.

[Greyharp]

I quit the online scene for several years after getting tired of the nastiness that seemed inescapable. Despite the fact that we're surely all here first and foremost to talk with like-minded folk about a hobby we all love and enjoy, I just didn't get why some people seemed to get their jollies from being mongrels to others. This forum had been my last haven. A couple of times during those years I took a peek only to be put off by Michael once again randomly insulting someone for no apparent reason. We all make our own decisions as to how we treat others and I applaud the decision by the forum staff to make a stand on the side of respect. Thanks guys, your tough and uncomfortable decision is appreciated because there's a lot of good people here with a lot of good to share, and that's worth protecting.

I swapped a few emails with Gary Gygax and have kept printed copies in my white box. He was active in the online scene and if he was ever rude towards others, I never witnessed it. Over the years he must have been asked the same questions over and over, thousands of times. I cringe at my original email to him when I realised I did just that, but he was gracious and generous with his time and showed no impatience or unkindness. Understanding this, I was more grateful to him than I can say. At the end of the day, it's not hard to be decent to people and the topic of our discussions is a game that brings us fun and joy - or should do.

[chicagowiz]

Dec 23, 2019 6:00:21 GMT -6 Greyharp said:

At the end of the day, it's not hard to be decent to people and the topic of our discussions is a game that brings us fun and joy - or should do.

Wisdom for the ages that old and young should heed. Game on, Greyharp!

[sepulchre]

Rafael wrote:

"...instead of just using it as a stage to play out his own increasingly tiresome sideshow act"

It's not just recent exchanges. The guy was just rarely civil, ever; nor particularly friendly to many who tried to engage him. It mattered little whether one hailed from the old or the new school. His temperament often obscured his informed and even astute observations, especially on Medieval history and warfare. It's a shame really, I heard him speaking on the BBC in 2017, I couldn't believe it was the same person. I think for those to whom he warmed, he could be very gracious.

Rafael, I hope the reality you speak of may become apparent to him in his absence.

[premmy]

I must echo chicagowiz's earlier post and strongly encourage the Powers That Be to preserve the subforum in a publically viewable form, even if in a less visible part of the forum structure. It has a genuine value as irreproducible recollections of historical interest about the early period of the hobby, and it would be a shame to lose it.

[Deleted]

Trick is, guys - we don't plan to delete anything, as Fin has already said above.

However, there are ways in which Michael could delete his remaining "ghost" posts here, if he still desired to do so: Now, we have no indicators so far that he will, but - he might have a change of opinion, some day. So, we strongly recommend that you save any content you consider valuable, of this sub-board, and of your communication with Michael on Proboards, in general.

Personally, I doubt that Mr Mornard will do anything of the kind, as it would be to continue adding (self-) insult to (self-) injury, this way. If he ever wants to return to the hobby in a meaningful capacity - say, to sell his book, as a "guest of note" at a convention, or even as part of any kind of prestige project - then he needs to convince his prospective business partners that his indefensible behavior and, generally, his representation of himself on the internet, is not something that makes him "uninsurable" to them. And some of his posts here, at least, show that he is capable of intelligent and sensible dialogue: As long as they're up, he can claim that he was misunderstood; as soon as he deletes them, our version of what happened will be the only one that people read. - So, my personal guess is, he will simply take a break, and then pop up somewhere else on the net, perhaps with a redefined direction for his role in the hobby. Maybe, he'll be bold enough to finally leave his "old geezer" internet persona behind.

- But, yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, my opinion. So, again, guys, if there's a thread or a series of posts that you consider especially valuable to yourselves, please consider taking some sort of precautions, as stuff like that is out of the mod squad's control.

[Aralaen]

Gronan’s posts were one of the reasons that made me more active (actually at all active) this past year. It is too bad that he felt the need to go, he was a great first person resource to the game during its infancy. Being a historical educator myself repeating the same answer to the same question over and over again is just part of the job, it is easy to get frustrated with it if you let it do so but without the repetition Few would learn anything. Hope he realizes his value but also the value of his “students”.

[doublejig2]

Perhaps, it's just a difficult because inter-generational scrimmage...


Icona Pop 

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2019 14:09:47 GMT -6 Aralaen said:

Gronan’s posts were one of the reasons that made me more active (actually at all active) this past year. It is too bad that he felt the need to go, he was a great first person resource to the game during its infancy. Being a historical educator myself repeating the same answer to the same question over and over again is just part of the job, it is easy to get frustrated with it if you let it do so but without the repetition Few would learn anything. Hope he realizes his value but also the value of his “students”.

Again, I don't want to dwell on this issue all too much, since Gronan has left, but I'd like to stress that this wasn't the case, at all:

Mornard was not, by default, involved in a high number of discussions that, for some reason then went sideways, and afterwards we would blame him. THIS is his former personal forum, after all - look it up, if you like. His core business here couldn't have worked out more favorably for him, even if the section only had 43 threads, and about 1100 posts. Those are pretty good numbers for a subforum at OD&D'74, actually.

But Mornard entered other people's threads on other parts of the board, and essentially called them stupid. Not "educating" them, but "attacking" them for having takes and opinions on the game that he didn't approve of. And what he did or didn't approve of was basically completely arbitrary. After it became clear that this wasn't a phase, but simply his "new way to be", that's when he had to draw a line in the sand somewhere. - Those posts are still here, too. Feel free to look them up and tell us what we possibly could have done differently. Because I really don't know: If you're an icon of your subculture with a friendly and expecting audience surrounding you, and you bring people to a point where they have to tell you to quit the rage and the excessive namecalling, then I'd say, while many other things might be open for interpretation and debate, in this particular, singular case, the problem just might be with you, and not with us.