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Post by christopher on Sept 27, 2019 10:40:45 GMT -6
I sent a friend and fellow OD&D discussion member the following text and pic on FB Messenger and it inadvertently sounded like so much like a brief review, I figured I'd share the text of it here as well for those who may be curious about this boxed set, particularly the rulebook: I bought the D&D 5e Essentials Kit that was recently exclusively released at Target, then later online through Amazon, etc. I figured I'd just check it out and maybe try out the adventure with my kids. The book you see above is 64 pages and contains the only absolute necessary game information. Races: dwarf, elf, halfling, human. Classes: bard, cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard. Backgrounds: acolyte, criminal, entertainer, sage, soldier. Chapter 2: How to play the game. Chapter 3: Equipment. Chapter 4: Spells. Appendix: Sidekicks. No monsters or magic items. XP levels 1-5 that could easily be expanded as high as level 20 using the free Basic Rules from the WotC website. It is, like Holmes, a complete game in 64 pages if so desired. Monsters and Magic Items would have to be created, but I love that WotC have actually put together a "complete" game in 64 pages whether it was their intention or not (99.9% that it was not). Granted, the rules overhead is greater than OD&D, 1E, 2E, and Basic, but that WotC allowed such a concise rule-set of 5e is exciting to me as my mindset has generally been doom-and-gloom as it pertains to future iterations of D&D. Perhaps 6e will move even further towards "old school" sensibilities. Kinda doubt it, but one can always hope. Attachments:
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Dec 28, 2019 18:31:16 GMT -6
I don't know if you have read the 5th edition player handbook but honestly 5e has less rules that 1e or 2e. I did a page count of actual rules in 5e and came to around 30 pages of actual rules. The rest of the book is mainly spell, feats (which is optional), backgrounds (also optional) equipment, and character class descriptions. Character classes have more to them than 1e for sure but they still are easier to manage than 2e once you add kits or optional rules.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 29, 2019 17:53:38 GMT -6
An interesting point, Dohojar. I think that for 5E more of the rules happen before you play (in character creation) and fewer rules happen after. Well, sort of … 5E is all about exceptions and each class gets a few ways to break the rules. As you noted, however, the actual rules are really short.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 30, 2019 1:45:50 GMT -6
When you're reviewing the Essentials Kit, you should mention it comes with an adventure book, some great maps you can use for sandbox gaming, and item cards which is a great addition for new players.
The basic rules are available for free online and also available in other D&D boxed sets (Starter Set, Stranger Things set, Rick & Morty...).
If you're going to start playing in the suggested Sword Coast setting, both the Starter Set and the Essentials Kit are very much recommended for the maps and campaign books alone. With some additions by our GM, we've played the Starter Set campaign over the course of about a year (playing three times a month, on average, with about 4 hours playtime each session). We have transitioned into the Essentials Kit campaign by now, but we're still using all the maps from these two boxes.
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Jan 1, 2020 12:34:32 GMT -6
I agree, Finarvyn, that the character class abilities after 3rd level add more rules to the game but I think that you could actually use any of the old school classes from OD&D, or BX with the core rules from 5e and have a fairly clean game.
I personally would like to see a set of 5e rules with the character paths removed but keep all the abilities the main classes would get. This would work for melee classed but spell casters might pose a challenge. I think I would make wizards more like second edition with schools of magic and keep clerics as is (maybe tone down some of the extra abilities they get when they pick their divine domain). Sorcerers and warlocks would be a bit trickier but an easy way to fix them would be to just not allow the class.
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Post by thegreyelf on Feb 26, 2020 7:00:52 GMT -6
Full disclosure: I'm actually a fan of 5e and am the 5e line developer for Troll Lord Games. That being said, what I dig about 5e is that it HAS gone back to the roots of what made D&D, D&D. Sure, it has a more "modern" approach to the rules system and is quite a bit more robust than OD&D was, but still, it's fast playing, open, puts the power back in the hands of the DM, and more importantly, is just fun to play. The Essentials Kit, I agree is a fantastic new take on the D&D Basic Set from the old days. Especially when you combine it with the Starter Set, which has one of the best introductory mini-campaigns I've ever seen. WotC has outdone themselves with this.
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Post by Starbeard on Mar 3, 2020 22:50:27 GMT -6
I have the Essentials Kit and overall quite like it. If I had my way then my 5e group would play this exclusively over the full version of 5e. I have to say that I haven't experienced 5e to be fast playing at all—although I should also point out that we've only played the official conversions of AD&D modules, and while the conversions seem good, they don't really take into account the fact that facing a half-dozen zombies in 5e is a very different thing from facing the same monsters in 1e. Maybe an adventure written for 5e would pace itself differently. Anyway, I can nevertheless see the EK combat rules being adequately brisk.
The adventure that comes with the EK is quite nice. Despite all of its helpful tables, bells and whistles, I do think it still shoots itself in the foot a bit by not actually addressing the real important aspects of how to run a sandbox module. It just follows the same old advice on coming up with backstory relationships so that there's a reason for everyone to be at the tavern, providing a full tavern menu as if that matters, and describing the details of each NPC's personality, ambitions, and connections to different quests in the module. None of these things help new DMs or new players, they need real practical advice and procedures on how to leverage everything in the module toward getting the players from A to B to X to Y. The group can worry about role playing the world later, after they actually have a handle on what the heck they're supposed to be doing.
That's not really something I've seen many published starter adventures do very well, though, so I can't blame them for it.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 4, 2020 15:46:44 GMT -6
I have the Essentials Kit and overall quite like it. If I had my way then my 5e group would play this exclusively over the full version of 5e. Neat idea. I don't have my copy handy (I loaned it a friend of my son) but it would be a nice thing to have a thread which was basically "playing 5E the Essentials way" with a list of what makes the Essentials rules different or better than the standard 5E rules. * Which races are allowed * Which classes are allowed * What level range for characters * etc. That way, a person could take the regular Player's Handbook and just tell his group, "okay, so here's how we are going to do it" to emulate the Essentials experience.
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Mar 4, 2020 19:15:49 GMT -6
From the quick look I had of the essentials, it just seems like it's the basic rules with the Bard class added and two paths for each class. The fighter has the champion and the eldritch knight. The rogue has the thief path and the arcane trickster. The other classes are the same way.
I did find a copy of rules on the net that is basically 5e but there are no class path options. So if you are a Barbarian, there is no path to choose at 3rd level. The classes they cover are Barbarian, Bard ,Cleric (Cleric Domains), Druid ,Fighter ,Monk ,Paladin ,Ranger ,Thief , and Wizard (Arcane Traditions). Character Advancement is a little different too with a character reaching 2nd level at 750 exp.
I haven't gotten too into it but the rest of the rules look like normal 5e. Unfortunately I can't remember for the life of me where I got it but I know I didn't have to buy it. If you guys are interested I am more than willing to share my copy.
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 370
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Post by flightcommander on Mar 10, 2020 20:46:59 GMT -6
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Post by thegreyelf on Mar 16, 2020 18:46:58 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 11, 2020 19:43:26 GMT -6
Finally got a chance to read some of this rulebook again. I like the fact that the Essentials rules cap out at level 6. My campaigns usually cap out at level 8 or so, anyway.
Y'know, if someone could create a 5E player's handbook with content for levels 1-10 only, it would make an awesome game. No spells above level 5. No character options beyond level 10. I could pretty much shelve my full PH forever.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Apr 11, 2020 21:25:07 GMT -6
Y'know, if someone could create a 5E player's handbook with content for levels 1-10 only, it would make an awesome game. No spells above level 5. No character options beyond level 10. Oh, yeah, sure, just throw that out there. Not like I don't have enough projects in the pipeline right now. 😑
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Apr 12, 2020 8:31:56 GMT -6
Finally got a chance to read some of this rulebook again. I like the fact that the Essentials rules cap out at level 6. My campaigns usually cap out at level 8 or so, anyway. Y'know, if someone could create a 5E player's handbook with content for levels 1-10 only, it would make an awesome game. No spells above level 5. No character options beyond level 10. I could pretty much shelve my full PH forever. Just out of curiosity, why do your games cap out at lvl 8? Personal preference or do you not like high level play?
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 12, 2020 9:13:40 GMT -6
A little of both. I don't want to sound preachy because everyone's style is different, but for me this goes back to the 1970's when I played OD&D with the philosophy that if 4th level is a "hero" and 8th is a "super hero" then there shouldn't be much farther to go from there. Level 12 would be "mythic" and maybe bad guys like Sauron would be 12th. Conan should be a "super hero" in spite of the claims I've heard that he should have a zillion levels in thief and barbarian and fighter and.... Also, Gary's Warriors of Mars capped out at level 12, where only John Carter could be level 13. That sort of led me to the notion that most NPCs should cap at 12, which tells me that PCs should be less than that. 8th (or maybe 10th) makes a good cap with that in mind. Also, a level cap somewhere around level 8-10 fits well with demihuman level caps. The two approaches are to cap humans or raise the demihuman cap, and what made sense to me is to cap humans. Also, I don't like high level play. We tried it a few times and it always seemed sort of cartoony to me. In later editions I find that there are too many options to anticipate as a DM and I think it gets sort of slogging and boring as a player. It's just not much fun to me at that point. So, I think my 5E bias towards levels is based on a 40+ year OD&D bias.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 12, 2020 9:35:42 GMT -6
As a compact ruleset I like The EKIT rulebook. Though the Eldritch Knight I think should go the way of the DoDo. Far more powerful than the Champion (so is the PHB War Priest, compared to Champion Fighters). I also think it has the best/least annoying art I've seen in a WOTC 5E book. The Adventure I find extremely new school pedestrian- probably good for young kids who are used to video game quests-a stark contrast to the excellent Lost Mine in the Starter Set. The downloadable extra adventures on D&D Beyond don't add a lot of value either (i.e. not terribly well done) Dig the map. Great addition if you are utilizing one or both "basic" sets. Dig the GM screen- the first one they did was awful, so are the GF9 ones based on each adventure path. This one while not the sturdiest is the most useful (they also have a newer one with the same info and heavier cardstock) Fin, I would suggest just grabbing the Basic Rules- they now have them up for free as one document. I used the Basic rules and the MM only for most of my 5E gameplay- which is essentially (NPI) equivalent to Moldvay Cook Marsh of 5E. Free Basic Rules for 5E
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Post by hamurai on Apr 12, 2020 9:51:06 GMT -6
You can convert the Basic Rules into a doc file and throw out everything of levels 11+, maybe? Shouldn't be too much effort with the basic classes, I'd guess. Homebrew time!
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Post by asaki on Apr 12, 2020 10:26:50 GMT -6
And if the Basic Rules are too much for you, they have the Starter Set for free right now: dnd.wizards.com/remote/freematerialAmongst other goodies. Even Phandelver is entirely free! (in three different flavors!)
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Post by jeffb on Apr 12, 2020 10:32:33 GMT -6
And if the Basic Rules are too much for you, they have the Starter Set for free right now: dnd.wizards.com/remote/freematerialAmongst other goodies. Even Phandelver is entirely free! Agreed. The only thing though is the Starter Set has pre-gens only, no character creations rules-Which may be an issue for Fin as he's looking for a "all in one" sort of rulebook(?) I'll have to check the link- earlier yesterday the Phandelver link was dead. I have two hardcopies (wife found a barely touched starter set at a garage sale last year- 2 bucks- 2 character sheets used , otherwise mint including dice), but I'd like the PDF too. EDIT- now I see- it's on D&D Beyond, or the other VTT's- not a PDF download. I have a DDB account so I can access it there. AFAIC- Lost Mine is the best adventure they have produced for 5e by far. Rich Baker has always been a pretty d**ned good adventure writer. They are also giving away some kid's adventures/coloring pages and Adventurer's League adventures.
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Post by hamurai on Apr 12, 2020 11:16:47 GMT -6
Finally got a chance to read some of this rulebook again. I like the fact that the Essentials rules cap out at level 6. My campaigns usually cap out at level 8 or so, anyway. Y'know, if someone could create a 5E player's handbook with content for levels 1-10 only, it would make an awesome game. No spells above level 5. No character options beyond level 10. I could pretty much shelve my full PH forever. You might want to have a look at Into the Unknown: www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/13311/O5R-Games/subcategory/32808/Into-the-UnknownBlending simplified (for example, druids are a subclass of priests again) 5E classes up to level 10 with Race-as-Class for demihumans while retaining most pf 5E's mechanics. The intention was to mix B/X with 5E which I think turned out really well. Haven't played an entire campaign yet, but I can say that for one-shots it works well. Might be a way to introduce newer players to B/X and/or a more old school way.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Apr 12, 2020 20:05:32 GMT -6
I have to say, if I ever got around to doing a second edition of BLUEHOLME™ I'd probably drop the top levels to 14. I wouldn't use the term "limit" myself, just what's included in the book with an implied open-endedness for groups to explore on their own. In a way I think the rigid level limits of later editions cut both ways, as well as extending what was explicitly available in the rules they say, "No, you can't have 40th level characters kicking Cthulhu's butt!"
Nothing wrong with 40th level characters kicking Cthulhu's butt if that's what floats your boat, even though for me the sweet spot of any edition ends around the B/X-style 14th level.
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Post by asaki on Apr 12, 2020 21:34:17 GMT -6
I'll have to check the link- earlier yesterday the Phandelver link was dead. Link's been working fine for me, and I don't have a DDB account and can still access it: www.dndbeyond.com/sources/lmop/introductionYeah, it isn't PDF, but I went through and clicked "save page as" for each chapter, and made sure to download all the maps, etc. Wouldn't be too hard to just copy'n'paste the text and make my own PDF or DOC or something. Just for good measure, I grabbed the Roll20 module as well. You never know. Yeah, most of the freebies are things that have always been free, or silly things for kids, but some of this stuff looks useful. The "Infernal Machine Rebuild" adventure (pay-what-you-want) looks kind of nice, it's another attempt at filling in Gary's dungeon from the original DMG. And BTW, Wizards also released four new errata PDFs the other day: media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
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Post by doublejig2 on Apr 12, 2020 22:17:54 GMT -6
I have to say, if I ever got around to doing a second edition of BLUEHOLME™ I'd probably drop the top levels to 14. I wouldn't use the term "limit" myself, just what's included in the book with an implied open-endedness for groups to explore on their own. In a way I think the rigid level limits of later editions cut both ways, as well as extending what was explicitly available in the rules they say, "No, you can't have 40th level characters kicking Cthulhu's butt!" Nothing wrong with 40th level characters kicking Cthulhu's butt if that's what floats your boat, even though for me the sweet spot of any edition ends around the B/X-style 14th level. Point taken. But does Cthulhu have a butt?
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Post by jeffb on Apr 13, 2020 6:27:07 GMT -6
I'll have to check the link- earlier yesterday the Phandelver link was dead. Link's been working fine for me, and I don't have a DDB account and can still access it: www.dndbeyond.com/sources/lmop/introductionYeah, it isn't PDF, but I went through and clicked "save page as" for each chapter, and made sure to download all the maps, etc. Wouldn't be too hard to just copy'n'paste the text and make my own PDF or DOC or something. Just for good measure, I grabbed the Roll20 module as well. You never know. Yeah, most of the freebies are things that have always been free, or silly things for kids, but some of this stuff looks useful. The "Infernal Machine Rebuild" adventure (pay-what-you-want) looks kind of nice, it's another attempt at filling in Gary's dungeon from the original DMG. Yeah, stupid me thought Lost Mine was supposed to be a pdf download link like the Starter rules. I eventually figured out they were linking it to the various intarwebz spots to get it. The Kids stuff and coloring pages have actually been useful for me-or rather my 8 yo girl.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 13, 2020 7:51:46 GMT -6
I forgot to mention for those perusing this thread-Definitely worth picking up Saltmarsh Encounters as the freebie at the WOTC site. It's a 22 page book of encounter/plot starters that any edition could/would find useful.
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Post by asaki on Apr 13, 2020 11:46:08 GMT -6
Yeah, stupid me thought Lost Mine was supposed to be a pdf download link like the Starter rules. I kind of prefer making my own DOC anyway, it's a lot easier to print (and I can nerd out with the fonts!). Modern PDFs all have fancy colored backgrounds, it's annoying to have to go through with a PDF editor and delete all that toner waste. ...and sometimes I get stingy and shrink the font size way down to save on paper... ¬_¬
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 13, 2020 15:08:17 GMT -6
asaki, maybe if you make a doc of this you might share. I had thought about doing something like this, but have too many projects on my list at the moment. (I'm currently trying to make a doc out of the Essentials rules set.)
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Apr 13, 2020 19:17:07 GMT -6
I found the link to the rules I previously mentioned. These rules were created by Chris Perkins. He posted a link on Dragonsfoot. www.scruffygrognard.com/documents/DD5classic.pdfOverall, not a bad rules set. And the whole thing is fill with only old school art.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 13, 2020 22:37:23 GMT -6
198 pages! For me, it needs to be about Holmes-sized.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 14, 2020 5:56:59 GMT -6
198 pages! For me, it needs to be about Holmes-sized. And its just the PHB! That said, its gorgeous. Love the art and layout, especially all those great pieces from The Rogues Galley. I like how the "author" also whittled it down to essentially the AD&D options when it comes to races, classes, etc. Then again, if we are going to go to all that trouble- Why not just pick up Castles & Crusades? I find it easier as a DM to tack on a few things to C&C than remove what I don't like from 5E and implement some of the options from the DMG.
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