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Post by scalydemon on Aug 26, 2019 22:08:12 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 23:10:39 GMT -6
"My, oh, my!" as Fourth Daughter would say.
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 27, 2019 18:50:55 GMT -6
I read through the article yesterday, it says "Robert Kuntz has written, but not yet published, a dense text called Dave Arneson’s True Genius. There, and in interviews, he describes...", but as we know well this book has been available for over two years, which even a cursory Google Search would reveal. Literally the first hit in a Google search for the book's name is Paul Stormberg's company offering it for sale and "in stock". This doesn't inspire confidence in the author's fact-checking or the accuracy of other statements they make. It suggests the author either started writing the article over two years ago and didn't bother to do any updating, or that they mixed up DATG with the Kuntz' longer "A New Ethos is Game Design", which is teased on the back of DATG. Update: the article has been revised so the sentence in question now reads: "Robert Kuntz has written a dense text called Dave Arneson’s True Genius."
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eotb
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Post by eotb on Aug 27, 2019 19:08:22 GMT -6
It's really interesting to see how people change. And I don't mean EGG's reputation.
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Post by Greyharp on Aug 27, 2019 19:44:43 GMT -6
There's nothing in this article (or any other revelation so far) that alters my opinion that without BOTH of these men, we would not have the D&D we all love.
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Post by scalydemon on Aug 27, 2019 21:45:07 GMT -6
There's nothing in this article (or any other revelation so far) that alters my opinion that without BOTH of these men, we would not have the D&D we all love. I agree with this statement, however I must profess my favor of the House of York over Lancaster
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 3:07:49 GMT -6
While I appreciate that Arneson is getting more attention from the gaming community than he used to get, I hope this doesn't mean we get a warming-up of the utterly nonsensical "Gygax versus Everything" debate. It's not a place where the community should go, in my opinion, if only because we've been there too often.
What I personally take from this are some lessons on business management: What happened to Gygax' TSR is maybe the most famous case of a successful company becoming unsuccessful, and of a productive team becoming an unproductive one - all this while their product by itself was already "too big too fail". TSR is the Nokia of the 80s, and the Lucas-Films of the late 1990s: They essentially own the market, yet they are unable to capitalize on that because they misunderstood "progress" for "visibility". So, what they do is they stop adapting their product, and they stop adapting their teams. And that's when all the bad things start for them: Their boss develops a reputation for acting irrationally. Their creative team starts to invest attention in outside opportunities. Working together becomes a contest, and communication between co-workers becomes a series of duels. - All their individual behavior is relativizable and perhaps even excusable, but the big picture is not: They sunk this one so bad that nobody among them would ever return to any position of responsibility within the industry they themselves had founded.
That's also why such a discussion is useless, in my mind. The verdict on this one has long been out, and not by any of us. So, trying to make a scandal about these things years later doesn't help anyone. Stating the facts, yes, but just don't incite. As a community of gamers, we should have more important things to do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 11:16:26 GMT -6
I think the tone of the article is what everyone is reacting to. Would people be reacting the same way if the article was all about Gygax and said he was the genius behind everything, nope. Therein lies the truth to what Cecilia has done - she is going against the grain but she is telling a truthful story. I've interviewd Tim Kask, David Megarry, Rob Kuntz, they describe the same events when Arneson was at TSR. A lot of the info is worth seeing. There are things here I did not know. In my experience if you bring up Dungenos & Dragons most people know what it is. If you ask who created it, the usual response is Gary Gygax. Example A: www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2ZBVw4nTGs&t=154sEveryone who has been on this site has had access to unique and rare material, thus perspectives here are going to lean toward the, Yup I knew that already, side of things. The average D&D player, especially the 5e crowd is going be surprised by all of this. I thought long and hard on this article because my personal work is merely to reveal details about how RPG's came about. i actually avoided all the Gygax and Arneson drama. I explain it by having Barbara Jenkins say it in terms of how the Cities players view it. I also have Gail Gaylord saying: Dave is dead now, which is sad. She also says something like: that was along time ago... and implies that it's not worth dragging around. in the end, I lean toward praising Cecilia for just putting it out there and sure adding a little drama, but whatever, its not like we haven't heard the other extreme for nearly 50 years now. As I said somewhere else. one night Cecilia will wake up from a restful sleep in the morning and find a 20 sided die under her pillow, the Dave Arneson faery will have visited her in her sleep to thank her.
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Post by Greyharp on Aug 28, 2019 15:34:16 GMT -6
I think the tone of the article is what everyone is reacting to. Would people be reacting the same way if the article was all about Gygax and said he was the genius behind everything, nope.
I think back when many believed Gygax was the genius behind everything people naturally reacted by saying "wait, hang on...", resulting in the last several years of unearthing and examining Dave's role in D&D. I don't see such articles as a bad thing, not if they are factual and respectful. Neither is it a bad thing to know our heroes are fallible.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 18:16:52 GMT -6
This is such a pleasant discussion.
People posting ideas politely - Not attacking one another.
I am somewhat in shock.
I go to other forums and I get attacked by complete morons over this article and I didn't even write it.
Thank you mods for keeping it clean.
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Post by Greyharp on Aug 31, 2019 18:31:31 GMT -6
This is such a pleasant discussion. People posting ideas politely - Not attacking one another. I am somewhat in shock. I go to other forums and I get attacked by complete morons over this article and I didn't even write it. Thank you mods for keeping it clean.
This is exactly why after taking time off from the online scene, largely through toxicity fatigue, when I came back several years later this was where I came back to. Respect, decency and friendliness are never in short supply here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 21:00:07 GMT -6
I don't think this Kotaku article merits a polite response.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 12:38:30 GMT -6
I don't think this Kotaku article merits a polite response. Arrgh. You just had to do it, hadn't you? First and final warning: The next snarky comment will get you a timeout, mate.
In case you wonder what's the problem, go back and read the rules. Not going to explain them again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 15:07:30 GMT -6
Just to remain on subject without too much spew, ok well, maybe a little bit. It will be really polite spew, mostly.
It's interesting how Tim Kask is allowed to run around spewing vitriol about Arneson for decades and that is ok.
And then, one author writes a pro Arneson article with an anti Gygax slant and suddenly the internet explodes with vitriol vs. the author, vs. Rob Kuntz, vs Paul Stormberg, vs. Secrets of Blackmoor.
I began my personal investigation based on this same kind of vitriol that happens whenever anyone says anything nice about Arneson regardless of the tone. I am an investigator at heart and If I see smoke I look for the fire. Most of what rob says is true as far as I can tell. His tone may not appeal to most people, but again, who's asking Tim Kask why he acts so unprofessionally in public when Arneson's name comes up. I wasn't there to validate it, but the people in my interviews were and they match up. I have Megarry on a hard drive talking about, and I have Arneson talking about, along with countless print interviews.
Begin SPEW here:
I am fine with the counter points being made, but single line comments like EOTB (13 posts) and Dungeonmonkey (49 posts) smack of trolling. And yes, they are trolls. i've been exchanging barbs with them in one form or another on other forums. They are actually going to my facebook page to cherry pick comments to cut and paste and post. The sort of obsessive behavior with all the searching and cutting and pasting in order to libel someone publicly is actually on the border of legality.
The only reason I engaged was because they make my discussions bubble up in the stack. it's what I call the Bubble Up Troll Function. It actually works better than LIFO or FIFO! Good news for you programmers out there, you now have a new tool for your stacks.
Apparently EOTB is the person who got Kentzer banned from Dragon's Foot by provoking him to the point of his being banned by the mods for whatever he said. My discussion on DF got locked typical for DF which is why I do not go there. I just posted as a way to do direct marketing for my project.
I read other posts on here by EOTB and all he does is troll at Arneson in his comments. He is a troll. Why allow scum bags to roam freely when you can go look at how they are on other forums and see their true nature? I'd say the same for Dungeonmonkey.
Please ban these idiots, they are a waste of skin. ------
I am not going to edit what I said.
I assumed dungeonmonkey was part of EOTB's cadre of fun friends from other forums, who had now come to subtly create dram here.
i made a mistake, I apologize for my mistake to dungeonmonkey.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 18:20:10 GMT -6
DING DING DING
Just doesn't work like this here. I don't care who you are, you either stay civil, or you have to take your debates somewhere else.
Thread locked. Don't restart this kind of discussion in the other recent Arneson-related threads.
Now, to entangle this:
Both eotb and @dungeonmonkey are valued members of this community. They are allowed to disagree, and they are allowed to protest to any sort of opinion, as long as they do so in a civil way. And if they do so in an uncivil way, then the punishment will be swift, and come with GIFs of a cat swinging Thor's hammer. As to eotb being reponsible for anyone being banned anywhere, those stories are fundamentally untrue and have been contextualized often enough. In very long debates, which everyone here is welcome to google and to reread. Generally, don't repeat this kind of nonsense here.
@secretsofblackmoor, you say you want a civil discussion, yet it were your comments that got this thread locked. You brought up the Mentzer story, so let's highlight the parallels: Message boards are not ad space you rent. If you want ad space, go rent ad space. - Otherwise, you, like everyone else, need to respect the rules that we have installed here, and that, in all modesty, we have almost universally been praised for. By you yourself, by the way. If something of the kind that happened today returns to happen, we will have no other option but to restrict your own posting privileges - "to mentzer" you, if you will. Don't force us to do that, please.
A final word on the overall situation, in case anyone wonders why the hell people are so worked up about this topic:
"Kotaku": A writer from outside the community writes a text giving an outside perspective on the community that attempts to be deep, and in the process gets some details wrong. In other news, water, today, wet. Like reading texts about motorbikes written by somebody who doesn't ride them.
"Gygax Invented Everything Renarration": Shortened GIER, the German word for "greed". Established around the year 2000, when Mr Gygax' health and business started declining, and TSR/WotC snubbed him when they brought some oldschool icons into their company again to promote 3e. Primarily used to promote the later unfinished "Castle Zagyg" as the "pure" oldschool experience, in contrast to "impure" oldschool experiences, like "Living Greyhawk" and the 2004 Blackmoor remake. Not a sustainable theory or talking point in the eyes of any even semi-serious hobby historian. /End
"Totally integrally misunderstood": Shortened TIM, after a guy who did an internship at TSR for one summer. The strange, eyebrow-rising phenomenon that many of us believe to have been witnessing concerning the former members of team GIER since around the death of Mr Gygax: Because, to many TIMs, it seems that in the moment Mr Gygax died, he evidently stopped inventing D&D - and Mr Arneson started inventing it. And now, ten years later, it might even seem to some of those that once proudly carried the burning torches that Mr Arneson has grown from "a malignant toad" into a "true genius". Hobby historians have expressed wonder about this phenomenon, and attribute it to a form of "climate change".
You know what? - I'm opening this thread again. This is not a debate that one cuts short.
Evolve beyond this nonsense, gentlemen, or get booted off this board.
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Post by derv on Sept 1, 2019 20:12:10 GMT -6
Oddly I didn't come across anything new being expressed in the article. It was a bit of a retread to read, so it must be a timing thing if it's getting a lot of push back. The article doesn't cause a vitriol response for me, but it does cause me to raise an eyebrow.
I think I find @rafael 's TIM summary the most relevant for the occasion. I'd personally like to hear someone give an honest balanced appraisal of both Gygax and Arneson and their contributions. I'm not interested in one being a saint and the other a sinner. I think there's only a couple people who could really give that sort of unbiased assessment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 21:04:00 GMT -6
Perhaps if I elaborate, my previous statement will seem less snarky?
The Kotaku article uses Kuntz to frame the issue. At the outset, Kuntz says that digging into D&D’s origins will “expose the truth” and that those who don’t accept his version of events “do not like to admit they’ve been hornswoggled, lied to, cheated, or fooled,” He also characterizes others as being under a “mass delusion.” That the article’s author shares Kuntz’s point of view on these points is plain both by the extent to which she relies on Kuntz’s version of events (without questioning it in any respect) and the title of her article: “Dungeons and Deceptions.”
In other words, in the article’s telling, anyone who disagrees is either a liar, a dupe, or delusional. That’s why I don’t think the article deserves a polite response. It means to provoke a fight.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 21:19:01 GMT -6
I am fine with the counter points being made, but single line comments like EOTB (13 posts) and Dungeonmonkey (49 posts) smack of trolling. And yes, they are trolls. i've been exchanging barbs with them in one form or another on other forums. They are actually going to my facebook page to cherry pick comments to cut and paste and post. The sort of obsessive behavior with all the searching and cutting and pasting in order to libel someone publicly is actually on the border of legality. If I let this accusation lie, someone will construe my silence as an admission. So that there can be no misunderstanding, I deny this accusation in its entirety. I belong to two D&D forums: this one and KK&A. I have not interacted with secretsofblackmoor on either forum. As of the posting of this comment, I have not commented about his film here or at KK&A; nor have I done so on any other forum or website. Nor have I visited his Facebook page, let alone copy and pasted snippets of it elsewhere. Having never addressed secretsofblackmoor or his film at any time or in any place, I have not libeled him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 23:42:47 GMT -6
I am fine with the counter points being made, but single line comments like EOTB (13 posts) and Dungeonmonkey (49 posts) smack of trolling. And yes, they are trolls. i've been exchanging barbs with them in one form or another on other forums. They are actually going to my facebook page to cherry pick comments to cut and paste and post. The sort of obsessive behavior with all the searching and cutting and pasting in order to libel someone publicly is actually on the border of legality. If I let this accusation lie, someone will construe my silence as an admission. So that there can be no misunderstanding, I deny this accusation in its entirety. I belong to two D&D forums: this one and KK&A. I have not interacted with secretsofblackmoor on either forum. As of the posting of this comment, I have not commented about his film here or at KK&A; nor have I done so on any other forum or website. Nor have I visited his Facebook page, let alone copy and pasted snippets of it elsewhere. Having never addressed secretsofblackmoor or his film at any time or in any place, I have not libeled him. I was dealing with a lot of trolls. Clearly you aren't one of those. I apologize for my inference. now EOTB...
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eotb
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Post by eotb on Sept 1, 2019 23:59:24 GMT -6
I also deny going on facebook or receiving any information posted on facebook by Griff. That is all I have to say on the matter here. His bubble up strategy must have worked on several platforms; but my posts and links are public and none of them link back to anything but our common forums and well-known blogs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 0:18:43 GMT -6
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Post by Desparil on Sept 2, 2019 2:32:21 GMT -6
Rafael's post seemed pretty clear-cut to me; FWIW, my personal recommendation would be to stop trying to one-up each other and/or fighting to get in the last word.
On-topic, I think another part of the controversy over this article is because the author has written a few previous pieces about D&D over the last year or two, so people have preformed opinions about her before even reading it. I assume she picks titles that are calculated to be divisive, as well, since websites like Kotaku make their money from ads - and page views generate ad revenue regardless of whether the attention is positive or negative. As far as the contents, I think that a lot of the guys who were involved in the business side of things back in the TSR days had/have axes to grind. Between that and the general fallibility of memory about events 35-45 years ago, I think it's fair to say that neither Kuntz nor anyone else can be assumed to provide an 100% accurate narrative. However, I think it's still useful to have all of those different narratives on the table for comparison - getting every possible primary source is just good research practice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 4:51:42 GMT -6
Good morning! I'm happy that this has cooled down a bit overnight. This is now the time when I give one of my Balian of Ibelin speeches, and hope you all will understand that fighting about these things in the first place is not something we should do. Disagreeing and debating, YES. But not more. Oddly I didn't come across anything new being expressed in the article. It was a bit of a retread to read, so it must be a timing thing if it's getting a lot of push back. The article doesn't cause a vitriol response for me, but it does cause me to raise an eyebrow. This. Also, what Desparil has said. - The mainstream gradually discovers that the million-dollar pioneer skyrocket that was TSR didn't get off the ground easily, and that most of the people in charge made fundamental mistakes along the way. How is this news, by any stretch of the imagination? Now, the timing, of course, is bad for all branches of the Gygax family, as they have evidently been struggling for some time, and on completely different levels. But that's not for us to excuse, or to micro-analyze. And that's also not the fault of the Kotaku author. First, we generally don't police off-site behavior here on OD&D'74. At least not of this kind. - You two seem to have a personal disagreement. Discuss it off-site, discuss it via PM. Hug it out, or walk it off. Not relevant for this discussion. What cannot continue, however, is you insulting other posters. If you continue like this, you will get reprimanded like anyone else. If we haven't done so already, then it's because you're a content provider, and we don't want to sabotage your project. But this can't go on. Accept this warning, or accept a long timeout. --- Now, my personal opinion on this is: Control your temper better, and go and talk to people. The hotter the fire, the better. But really try to have a conversation. For example, the K&K Alehouse is truly a dreadful place - so dreadful that two of the admins there are also admins here: Falconer and grodog. Not a day goes by, as you all know, when they do not try to establish their reign of terror here as well. The same goes for DF - that place is so terrible, when we set up the Comeback Inn and OD&D'74, the admins there helped us on every level, and answered any and all questions we had. Surely because they were just so glad to see us go. As to the RPG site - I've been in disagreements there. I remember them as good discussions where most posters showed an open mind. In contrast, I was lifetime-banned on RPG.Net after politely asking where one could reread the specific allegations that were supposed to have been made against Bill Webb. - What I want to say is: The communities, and their bosses are not our "rivals". Most of them are our friends, actually. We might disagree on some bigger or smaller issues - but that's why we created all these fora. So we could discuss until Kingdome Come. Most of the bad blood on the "Gygax-Arneson" topics stems from one-sided or false talking points established by TIMs, and by what I unkindly called the GIER: So, especially these days, there shouldn't be all too many problems debunking those statements. - If you're willing to endure some slight blowback on the issue by those people that are a bit harder to convince. But if you manage to convince them, THEN that's the best publicity you can do for your movie, for your contributions to the community. Because this shows your intended audiences that your passion for the hobby is genuine, and not just based on you making a buck from it. ...So, why not try it?
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 2, 2019 5:38:13 GMT -6
I really don't understand why this is such a heated topic. I'm also disappointed that we can't play well here. I know that for some reason we seem to have two blowups each year -- one Jan/Feb and one Aug/Sept. Maybe it's the frustration that winter is too long, then the frustration that summer is going away. Guess this is our end-of-summer one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 12:48:29 GMT -6
"The mice will play when the cat's away."
EOTB is a troll. He has trolled many people on many forums. Of course here, where the behavior is heavily policed, he will pretend to be a nice guy. Yet his one line posts are classic passive aggressive innuendo intended to stir the pot. He has to be a little more subtle here, or he will get into trouble, but he is still trying to troll.
Again, my apologies to DungeonMonkey. i was out of line calling you a troll.
Sure EOTB won't completely misbehave here, but he's doing it somewhere else.
To imply that somehow you get a clean slate when you walk through the door here seems really misguided. The mods here are justifiably heavy handed. After having more experience on many forums, I now realize that this is necessary in order to maintain a comfortable environment for people to come and talk about some potentially contentious issues.
That is the question: Do you allow someone who trolls people like Rob Kuntz, or Kentzer, on other forums to hang out with you here? As a member on here do you want to rub elbows with this kind of scum? I don't.
Consider that he has come here recently in order to cut paste comments made here, in order to use them as Troll Fodder on other forums. I only go to those other forums to drop a link and pay attention to the comments for a short while. I know how bad those places are, but there may be some good people there who are interested in what I do. Any of you indy game makers likely do the same thing. you can't pay for a massive ad campaign like Hasbro does, so you do direct person to person marketing.
I actually only consider myself part of 2 game forums and this is one of them. ok, 3, I visit Chirine's forum too, I have a bad Tekumel addiction once you go E.P.T. it's a lot like needing more cow bell, you just can't get enough.
You guys decide what you want, I won't visit a forum that allows garbage like EOTB to be part of the discussion. If me calling a Troll like EOTB a Troll is a problem, feel free to lock down my account.
Griff
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Post by havard on Sept 2, 2019 12:53:38 GMT -6
There are some problematic things with this article. Mostly, the title is confrontational. Also it has a couple of quotes by Rob Kuntz that characterize Gary in a negative way. Apparently Kuntz has made some comments about those quotes coming out the wrong way somewhere, but I haven't seen the specifics by Kuntz. Other than that, the article is well researched and clearly gives credit to both Dave and Gary for the creation of D&D. Moreover, the article does a very good job of identifying what Arneson's main contributions to the creation of D&D were and why they were so incredibly important. More on my thoughts on this in more detail can be found here: blackmoormystara.blogspot.com/2019/08/was-kotaku-wrong-to-rehash-arneson-vs.html?-Havard
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 14:19:53 GMT -6
To imply that somehow you get a clean slate when you walk through the door here seems really misguided. The mods here are justifiably heavy handed. After having more experience on many forums, I now realize that this is necessary in order to maintain a comfortable environment for people to come and talk about some potentially contentious issues. Yeah, exactly. Which is why we do not ban people on demand. Even when that demand is made by an industry VIP like yourself. - Again, of all the ways to approach this issue, you choose the one where you come here and throw a public tantrum? How has that made your situation any better, so far? - Because you have not solved the situation with EOTB so far, and you've replaced your conflict with him with an unwinnable debate with me. If he really wanted to troll you, he couldn't have hoped for a better result. That is the question: Do you allow someone who trolls people like Rob Kuntz, or Kentzer, on other forums to hang out with you here? As a member on here do you want to rub elbows with this kind of scum? I don't. You keep saying this, and I'm all but baffled: So, there's Mentzer, the author of Red Box D&D. Then, there's David Kenzer, the author of Hackmaster and Kingdoms of Kalamar. Who of those two do you mean, and what incident in particular are you referring to? - Because if it's the unhappy encounter the DF community had with Frank Mentzer over his overambitious Kickstarter project, that was Mentzer's fault, and his alone. Consider that he has come here recently in order to cut paste comments made here, in order to use them as Troll Fodder on other forums. I only go to those other forums to drop a link and pay attention to the comments for a short while. I know how bad those places are, but there may be some good people there who are interested in what I do. Any of you indy game makers likely do the same thing. you can't pay for a massive ad campaign like Hasbro does, so you do direct person to person marketing. We're getting a bit lost here. I'm very sorry that you feel this way, but, again, how am I responsible for this? - Shouldn't that be something you discuss with the admins THERE? Also, if the situation is really as difficult as you say, why don't you use your blog or your FB page to explain the proper context to people? You guys decide what you want, I won't visit a forum that allows garbage like EOTB to be part of the discussion. If me calling a Troll like EOTB a Troll is a problem, feel free to lock down my account. I'm not banning you for this. I'm leaving it to you consider whether you're doing yourself a service with this kind of behavior. There is always a place at this (virtual) gaming table for you, friend. But you got to calm down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 14:31:11 GMT -6
Thanks.
I just needed an answer so I could know where the admins stand on this.
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Post by Greyharp on Sept 2, 2019 14:54:39 GMT -6
Oddly I didn't come across anything new being expressed in the article.
Meanwhile, I thought the above was worth repeating.
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Post by havard on Sept 2, 2019 14:58:26 GMT -6
Oddly I didn't come across anything new being expressed in the article. Meanwhile, I thought the above was worth repeating. That's probably true for people like us who hang out at forums like this, but I think a lot of gamers, even hard core gamers who have been playing for decades have never heard of Braunstein -Havard
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