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Post by chicagowiz on Mar 18, 2019 8:18:38 GMT -6
This came from the GaryCon thread...
From Gronan:
Which results in Gronan saying
And Piper added:
I've been lucky. I've only had a couple of times when players were trending towards obnoxious, and I steered them away from it. However, I'm not afraid to enforce my #1 rule - "Your fun does not come at the expense of other people's fun."
So how do you handle rude/obnoxious con players?
(And tangentially, but more importantly, how do we create an "invite only" OD&D game with Gronan. Because I think it's a <bleeping> shame that he's been run off from running OD&D at GaryCon.)
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Post by bryce0lynch on Mar 18, 2019 9:07:03 GMT -6
I've run at least 200 public games. I start with two ground rules that I cover in about a five second script before we start.
"Two main rules: You each need to find a reason to go on the adventure and you have to work together. Everyone got it?" I look around and quickly at them and then say "ok, lets Go!"
I've had to restate the rules about a half dozen times. "Hey, let's remember the rules: find a reason to go and work together. Ok, *Looks at next person in the order* what are you doing?"
Only once has someone pushed back. I asked what was wrong in a "ok, Whats keeping you from having fun?" question and then adjusted. If you HAVE to bring it up, as a player, then I think that's the right way to do it. It's a mature conversation that lasts about a minute, I say "ok, do/take/get x" and then we game more.
And I live in absolute terror of a REAL ass showing up that I have to deal with. Like "racist wont shut up" or "45yo guy wont stop using innuendo at 13YO girls character", both of which have popped up and I've dealt with. If they didn't back down ... Ug. "Look, I asked you to stop and you didn't, you need to leave."
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Post by chicagowiz on Mar 18, 2019 9:13:09 GMT -6
Hey Bryce... you say "Like "racist wont shut up" or "45yo guy wont stop using innuendo at 13YO girls character", both of which have popped up and I've dealt with."
How have you dealt with them? Do you mind sharing the details?
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Post by bryce0lynch on Mar 18, 2019 9:27:48 GMT -6
I recall the racist incident less than the 13YP incident, but it FEELS like they both went the same way.
Someone said something once and I let it slide. Everyone occasionally has a fat mouth/f**ks up once in awhile. Same person says it again. I think the first incident was something like "Hey, cut it out" while look at them. And in the other "Dude, chill it with that shirt." In both cases they started to explain/apologize, etc, which I quickly cut off with "Hey, it's ok. Lets move on."
So, basically, I give people the benefit of the doubt, a bit. I make it clear I control the game through short, direct, non-hostile comments, and then also by moving on quickly. I don't dwell on it, explain, talk it out, etc. This is a fast & quick thing, just like all other rulings at the table. And ... I hope no one ever pushes back more than that.
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Post by chicagowiz on Mar 18, 2019 9:36:52 GMT -6
That's cool. I think that's how I'd handle it, at a con/event. I'd also probably talk to the person(s) who might have been negatively affected by it, after ... see how they feel and if there's anything I can do (or do better)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 9:50:03 GMT -6
"45yo guy wont stop using innuendo at 13YO girls character" Sounds like the kind of guy who would use an image cropped from hardcore pornography as his forum avatar.
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Post by hamurai on Mar 18, 2019 9:58:40 GMT -6
I ran a game of Symbaroum once where one player tried to play the "mysterious lone wolf mage" and constantly tried to derail the group and get the attention by doing something everyone just considered to be plain stupid in-game. Like, the group investigates the forgotten temple and he's like "I'm the wizard, I'm better off delving into the mysteries of this place without you others." So the group split up, everyone warned him, but he actually got lucky and just when he'd be attacked the rest of the group showed up and rescued him (in his mind, of course, it was he who rescued the rest). He also didn't want to rest at the same place as the others in town and got his own tavern. I gently reminded him along with the rest of the group that he was supposed to play an adventurer who is part of a group but he didn't want to hear it. In the end when the party walked through the woods towards the end fight, he left the party again. He directly ran into the boss fight while the others were still preparing a clever ambush, so the loner wizard died alone and was already half-eaten by some monstrosity when the rest of the party started their plan.
When I ran a Cadwallon one-shot someone was playing the mighty Wolfen warrior/berserker/don't-mess-with-me and would always threaten any NPC and some PCs too. He was another type of annoying player. During the fights he would always put his action dice into offense, but never defense. While the rest of the group fought cleverly and balanced their offense/defense, he always dealt huge damage in the first one or two rounds and then start whining and complaining how his character was screwed up because he couldn't just take all the damage. I kept reminding him of the importance of defense in the game to avoid a quick downward spiral but he would always go berserk in every fight anyway. The others managed to patch him up, tell him (in and out of character) that he's no playing a warrior but a madman, but in the end he died because he actually believed that, although he was already wounded, he would survive a cannon shot. When I told him how the cannon ball ripped apart his character's flesh and bones he complained that the damage was unrealistic and he didn't know that. I sighed and started to reply, but another player finally snapped: "Dude, if the cannon ball wouldn't have killed you I would, not because the player me dislikes you and your whining, but because my character is so fed up with your character."
Character death pretty much solved the problems with "those" players I had. Most of the time I seem to get lucky and find nice players.
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Post by bryce0lynch on Mar 18, 2019 10:07:17 GMT -6
"45yo guy wont stop using innuendo at 13YO girls character" Sounds like the kind of guy who would use an image cropped from hardcore pornography as his forum avatar. Point taken. It overstayed it's "tweak Pundit" goal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 0:40:59 GMT -6
I think running con games is a completely different experience than running a private gaming table - but that's maybe just me. So, when I go to cons, I usually wear my "public face", and I run the tables like I would run team meetings; that usually keeps people at a distance where they don't behave badly, or where I can shut them down pretty easily. - That makes it less enjoyable for me, though. It's not "joint storytelling with my friends", it's "spoken word performance". That's why I quit running public tables a few years ago, and that's why I have difficulties equating the two experiences: The game in private is what is D&D for me; the public experience is not.
I think the DM, or "the project leader" has to be the "sobering" presence at the table: Talk as little as possible, be detached from the game as much as possible, and "perform, don't participate". That eliminates most problems at the gaming table, in my experience. If a player "plays badly", then my policy is always to let the other players interfere with him, not to treat him as I would treat a heckler at a concert. Now, if a player behaves badly on a personal level, that's really situational: If somebody intends to pick a fight with you, then he or she will find a way to do it, regardless of what you do. But then, such a situation is not part of the game, any more.
As to the existing correlation between players emphasizing how much experience they have, and their actual playing skills gravitating towards zero:
That's, lamentably, a thing we get from the usual gonzo virtue signaling we have in the OSR. Everybody has to be truer than true, and if that means that you're so "sophisticated" that nobody else can relate to you, then that, to some, is part of the glory. "You don't get my D&D because I have played it thirty years longer than you have" being an argument akin to "no officer, I wasn't speeding - I have my driver's license for so long that I now control the speedforce". What I observe on a more general level is that people seem to talk about convention experiences differently than they did just a few years ago: For my generation, it was all about being social. For many new gamers, it seems that things about the activity, and the consequent self-attribution: "I went to an oldschool/Witcher/Cthulhu con last weekend." Not like: "We played a couple of good games, and hung out with friendly, likeminded people."
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Post by chicagowiz on Mar 19, 2019 7:00:33 GMT -6
I hear both "I went to an oldschool/Witcher/Cthulhu con last weekend." AND "We played a couple of good games, and hung out with friendly, likeminded people." but that could be dependent on the event and people there, as well.
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Post by verhaden on Mar 19, 2019 7:06:03 GMT -6
We all know this guy. I think the real trick is to deal with them before they even get into a public space. People act like this because nobody calls them on their behavior in any other part of their life.
Having had my second child, and being the only father in a social group of 30-somethings stuck in arrested development, I've honestly found that using techniques that I use on my kids work on my friends. Clearly set your expectations, be honest with them, and when all else fails a stern look or a count down from five really work wonders.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 12:41:12 GMT -6
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Post by murquhart72 on Mar 22, 2019 15:06:39 GMT -6
By the Gods Gronan, that "Guide to Gaming" is a work of art! Is it available in PDF for printing out? I should make copies of both that and Matt Finch’s “Quick Primer for Old School Gaming" for each of my players! They both compliment each other rather beautifully
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 12:55:04 GMT -6
It's not a PDF, I just wrote it. You should certainly be able to copy it, though.
Use it freely, as long as you attribute it.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 23, 2019 18:41:23 GMT -6
There are few things in RPG land that I despise as much as the "What's my motivation?" nonsense. What kind of person shows up to play D&D and then expects to be convinced to play D&D?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 21:55:15 GMT -6
Attention wh*res. It makes the game all about THEM.
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Post by delta on Mar 24, 2019 12:37:44 GMT -6
There are few things in RPG land that I despise as much as the "What's my motivation?" nonsense. What kind of person shows up to play D&D and then expects to be convinced to play D&D? Coincidentally, my good friend Paul just mentioned to me that he has a "Random PC Motivation Table" that he rather gleefully rolls on any time someone asks that question. Maybe like this one?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 19:23:23 GMT -6
Everybody wants something. Each character in a scene will attempt to maneuver events to get them what they want.
If what your character wants is "to live a quiet life at home," don't bother showing up to my table.
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Post by doublejig2 on Mar 24, 2019 21:35:10 GMT -6
Attention wh*res. It makes the game all about THEM. The unscrupulous DM might just off these bastards. Given the gnawing underworld, a la Philotomy, whose to say why that green slime suddenly appeared, assimilating the loser(s), nice and tight... I suppose that's a slippery slope. And, it doesn't feel particularly good to diminish the adjudicator. But what can you do?
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skars
Level 6 Magician
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Post by skars on Mar 27, 2019 8:40:29 GMT -6
I haven't had that sort of experience with my many public or private games. To be honest, I have had the reverse far more frequently, an under prepared or otherwise awful DM at public events like conventions. But, it's pretty clear on what to do in those situations, politely bail. Don't waste your time or theirs (if they showed up).
The primary problem I have faced is with players trying to play other characters they were not assigned and removing the free agency that makes roleplaying so entertaining. The classic is the assumption that the cleric should heal MY character this round.
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Post by smubee on Mar 30, 2019 19:18:07 GMT -6
Everybody wants something. Each character in a scene will attempt to maneuver events to get them what they want. If what your character wants is "to live a quiet life at home," don't bother showing up to my table. PC : "I'm an anti-social thief that doesn't want to adventure."
Me : "Okay cool! Roll a new character then."
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Post by Starbeard on Apr 3, 2019 10:45:15 GMT -6
There are few things in RPG land that I despise as much as the "What's my motivation?" nonsense. What kind of person shows up to play D&D and then expects to be convinced to play D&D? My response usually runs something like: "I'm a wizard who voluntarily wears hippie robes and a dunce hat in exchange for real, ultimate power; I would've thought the answer to that was self evident."
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Post by murquhart72 on Apr 4, 2019 15:00:57 GMT -6
If players need help with motivation in OD&D, I just reiterate the point of the game (in a simplistic way): You're goal is to become rich and famous enough to acquire your own land, upon which to build a stronghold of your own design, for you to retire to. The quickest, easiest way to do this, will be to journey to the Underworld and make off with as much gold as possible, while avoiding as many conflicts as possible. Safety in numbers
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Post by murquhart72 on Apr 4, 2019 15:03:09 GMT -6
It's not a PDF, I just wrote it. You should certainly be able to copy it, though. Use it freely, as long as you attribute it. I've already printed it out and made it required reading for my players. The whole thing, author's credit included. They absolutely love it. Really puts a good perspective on the game and how it's best played
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Post by sixdemonbag on Apr 4, 2019 19:55:32 GMT -6
It's not a PDF, I just wrote it. You should certainly be able to copy it, though. Use it freely, as long as you attribute it. I've already printed it out and made it required reading for my players. The whole thing, author's credit included. They absolutely love it. Really puts a good perspective on the game and how it's best played I was bored and made a 2-column PDF. Feel free to host this on your site, Gronan: ggtg.pdf (884.87 KB) Print-friendly version: ggtg-pf.pdf (310.03 KB) EDIT: Added an ink-friendly version and made some minor formatting changes to both files. I recommend re-downloading.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 4, 2019 20:26:15 GMT -6
I was bored and made a 2-column PDF. Feel free to host this on your site, Gronan: View AttachmentNice! Can you do one with point size 10 or 12 type for those of us with tired eyes?
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Post by sixdemonbag on Apr 4, 2019 22:20:50 GMT -6
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Post by clownboss on Apr 5, 2019 1:03:48 GMT -6
If players need help with motivation in OD&D, I just reiterate the point of the game (in a simplistic way): You're goal is to become rich and famous enough to acquire your own land, upon which to build a stronghold of your own design, for you to retire to. The quickest, easiest way to do this, will be to journey to the Underworld and make off with as much gold as possible, while avoiding as many conflicts as possible. Safety in numbers "Omens say that a Great Evil will envelop the world with his army in 5 years, and it will require a coordinated effort of great forces to thwart it. You are a lowly freeman, and the kings who govern over the lands are corrupt and pay no heed to this threat. Do something."
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 5, 2019 1:24:22 GMT -6
You heard there's buried treasures in them scary catacombs... go get some.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2019 10:05:07 GMT -6
Gary has this cool new game called Greyhawk. You're a bunch of guys exploring an old abandoned wizard's castle full of monsters and treasure and stuff.
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