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Post by Falconer on May 1, 2019 11:13:58 GMT -6
I just saw the S08E01. Yawn. What a soap opera.
So I’m not caught up but I am reading your posts. I basically don’t feel the show is the “real” story*, so, spoilers don’t bother me. FWIW, with prophecies, I don’t think GRRM means for them to be true. I think he’s interested in how people can manipulate themselves and others through prophecy.
* - really not trying to be snobbish, it’s just that the characters behave out of character, and the way events fall out is both unbelievable and unidiomatic.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 22:25:41 GMT -6
Watched this episode live, thanks to the joys of, ugh, holiday season. - Not going to lie to you, and without spoiling anything, for the moment: The show feels phoned in, at this point. Not by the actors, not by far; they do an excellent job, and it's a joy to watch them show their craft. It's the producers who apparently gave up some time ago: They give their audience a lot of fan service, yes, and that is, again, a joy to behold. But the story stopped making sense a while ago, and every new twist brings more of what you English-speakers call "the cringe".
The main plot, very forced, as are the efforts to create additional drama between the characters; the new plot surrounding Jon Snow feels particularly artificial. The villains, reduced to "evil Disney queen" and "slightly more perverted Jack Sparrow", get plot-convenient superpowers, do appropriately villainous stuff, but their story is already pretty telegraphed.
...This last episode, or rather, this made-for-TV movie, isn't even bad. It's just not particularly engaging. Somewhere along the road, this show went from "we're going to bend the genre like it hasn't been done since freaking Cervantes" to "look, we have fancy CGI". Cool for teenagers, but straight-out boring for fantasy buffs like us, I'd say.
Not a hater, not a snob, either. Just bored by the lazy writing, and by the plot holes that the show doesn't care to fix, any more. I applaud that shows like these are made, of course, and I can't judge the series entirely before it's completely done, BUT even so, the lack of coherence and interior logic take me out of it.
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Post by geoffrey on May 6, 2019 8:48:51 GMT -6
I can't believe how easily the dragons are slain. For years the show made it seem as though Daenerys had the only three nuclear weapons in the world, but now they are instead depicted as fragile, vulnerable things best kept locked away for their own safety.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 2:36:26 GMT -6
Unless it's Star Wars, I'm usually not so nitpicky with stuff that I reckon is made for my entertainment. - For example, I'll be happy to cite "Altered Carbon" as my favorite sci-fi series (really, the only one I've ever watched), and that one is so full with plotholes, it looks more like a spider's web than like a slice of cheese. However, the big difference to GoT is that most other shows, books, and movie series don't tend to punish their audience with their "gods out of the machine" and questionable stylistic decisions: It's simply a bit too much, lately. I'm not even talking about the TV episode that, for a good portion of its paying viewers, largely consisted in staring at a black screen; I'm talking about the heroes' wins and losses being more or less determined by what is supposed to make effectful TV (as opposed to "effective storytelling"), at this point. It's not even bad, but it's very formulaic, and pretty boring, at this point - because you just know that creators of the show will go for any and every moment of theatricality: Whether that is a cavalry charge. Through a forested area. In the dark. Whether that is the heroes' navy not seeing the enemy navy approach even though they are literally shown as looking into the direction they are coming from. Or whether it is characters behaving stupidly just to move the plot ahead. Also, the lack of attention to detail is simply bewildering, for a production of this magnitude: The Night's Watch has a mini-scene in the first episode, but is never shown or mentioned again. Tormund is the only wildling shown until his farewell scene. Gendry Waters is now Gendry Rivers, because apparently, the writers don't even care for reference documentation. And, of course, the setting's geography, which we are shown in the beginning of each episode, mind you, isn't taken into consideration at all, any more, as characters essentially speed-travel between the different locations with the power of Star Trek transporters. Overall, sad. Say what you will about the "Hobbit" movies by Peter Jackson, the producers at least didn't obviously fall out of love with their material. Which is what I think might have happened here.
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Post by Falconer on May 7, 2019 10:59:06 GMT -6
My thought was, after Season 5, when they petered out of book material (and they rejected a bunch of other book material they didn’t want), they should have called "Game of Thrones" a wrap, and proceeded to serve up a really fine telemovie once every year or two afterwards.
Think of Season 6, it was totally dull and nonsensical, except for a few flashy vignettes which they were obviously very eager to get to: Hold the Door, Battle of the Bastards, and Blowing up the Sept. They could have taken a couple of years to work that into a very impressive movie. I think the same is true of Seasons 7 and 8. If they were done in a different format, it would be easier for the audience accept a different speed of passage of time and distances traveled, and a compression of the cast.
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Post by geoffrey on May 8, 2019 8:53:54 GMT -6
A theory gaining in popularity is as follows: Daenerys will defeat Cersei by destroying King's Landing with Drogon's fiery breath, resulting in a huge number of innocent deaths. Daenerys then becomes the "Mad Queen", putting people to death right and left, and Jon has to end up killing her. While anything is possible, I strongly doubt the above theory. George R. R. Martin has described the ending of the Song of Ice and Fire saga as "bittersweet": link: observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/A "Mad Queen Daenerys" ending does not sound bittersweet to me, at all. It instead sounds tragic and discouraging. Ergo, I think the theory is mistaken.
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Post by Falconer on May 8, 2019 10:17:38 GMT -6
The Maesters are hinted at having in the past suppressed magic and poisoned the dragons. I have long thought Sam would be forced in the end to turn on all the story’s nominal big magical heroes — the Starks and the Targaryens — and put a final end to them and their … “Game of Ice & Fire”? I would expect to see the Seven Kingdoms become Seven Kingdoms once again, ruled by lesser individuals with lesser ambitions: Bronn, Brienne, Yara, Tormund, Gendry…
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Post by geoffrey on May 8, 2019 11:00:08 GMT -6
The Maesters are hinted at having in the past suppressed magic and poisoned the dragons. Have you had a chance to read Fire and Blood? My (admittedly hazy) recollection is that the dragons mostly killed each other in the Targaryen civil war (the so-called "Dance of Dragons"). Where have you read hints about the Maesters poisoning the dragons? Is it in the Song of Ice and Fire series? I have read only the first volume of the saga, and that was more than ten years ago.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 11:04:12 GMT -6
Hehe, I personally doubt that we will see "Mad Queen Daeny", if only because the political subtext - a "Nordic Jesus"-type character clobbering a knight-like black dude and a successful emancipated woman to death - is not something that the studio will possibly risk. "Star Wars" and most recent superhero movies have turned into political message-bringers to many; so, the most powerful fantasy brand in the world will not risk its own longevity by offending those who are waiting for reasons to act as if offended. That's not me making a political statement, by the way - but I think if Cersei (overly emotional bad female boss #1) and Daeny (overly emotional bad female boss #2) are both shown to only come to reason when Jon Snow's postmodern incarnation of John Galt pokes them with his Valyrian pointy end, then that is too much armchair psychology in one place for Generation Tumblr not to run amok. Especially in light of the upcoming spinoff projects, I'm pretty sure the producers will play things as safe as possible; I think the only thing we all will have to worry about is even more increasingly cringe-worthy fan service. HBO wants to sell breakfast bowls with the Targaryen logo for the next twenty years to come; this means they are probably not going to turn Daeny into Stalin. (I wrote something similar on Reddit this morning, and got downvoted into oblivion; sorry if I sound salty because of this. )
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Post by Falconer on May 8, 2019 11:58:11 GMT -6
Have you had a chance to read Fire and Blood? My (admittedly hazy) recollection is that the dragons mostly killed each other in the Targaryen civil war (the so-called "Dance of Dragons"). Where have you read hints about the Maesters poisoning the dragons? Is it in the Song of Ice and Fire series? I have read only the first volume of the saga, and that was more than ten years ago. Yes, it is hinted at in A Song of Ice & Fire, where it is implied to be a secret known only to the Maesters. Note also that Fire & Blood is “written by” Archmaester Gyldayn, so such a fact would not be included there.
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Post by Falconer on May 8, 2019 12:00:17 GMT -6
I haven’t read Fire & Blood yet; so far my re-read adventure has taken me through
A Game of Thrones The Hedge Knight A Clash of Kings A Storm of Swords Dreamsongs The Sworn Sword A Feast for Crows (probably 65% done)
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 12:29:52 GMT -6
The Maesters are hinted at having in the past suppressed magic and poisoned the dragons. Have you had a chance to read Fire and Blood? My (admittedly hazy) recollection is that the dragons mostly killed each other in the Targaryen civil war (the so-called "Dance of Dragons"). Where have you read hints about the Maesters poisoning the dragons? Is it in the Song of Ice and Fire series? I have read only the first volume of the saga, and that was more than ten years ago. I started the audiobook, at some point, but couldn't keep to it: Well-written, but also a bit forced. Not stories that the background demanded, but stories that were created to fill in possible blanks. I also read "A World of Ice and Fire" a few years ago, and that one, I felt was much better - because that really was the world lore put in order and condensed. This new one builds on the stories told there, yes, but not in an organic way. Not a bad book, per se, but somewhat like a microcosm unto itself. Very little of the tension and the genius of the novels in there, at least as far as I've come.
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Post by geoffrey on May 12, 2019 21:18:42 GMT -6
I'm not happy--at all--with what the writers did with Daenerys in this episode.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2019 1:38:12 GMT -6
Yeah. On top of this season's storyline being confusing and, generally, nutsty, they are deconstructing her in a way that is just saddening.
For the others who haven't watched the show recently - basically, the main character goes full heel with only a paper-thin explanation of her motives. This is a terrible decision for the story, as it devaluates the character's progress over the entirety of the series, to the point of turning it almost obsolete. This impression is strengthened exponentially by the fact that, at the same time, the show largely casts that character aside in favor of a very fan-servicy treatment of some of the supporting roles, in particular of a "Mary Sue"-style "Power Gal" character named "Arya", about whom we have been talking in this thread already.
The results are dramatically bad: First, from a narrative perspective, you will feel like you're watching "Avengers Endgame" - but from the perspective of, say, Ant-Man, and not from the one of Captain America.
But second, and from a real-world political perspective, the show is borderline sexist in the way it portrays its two or three leading female characters as, ahem, "emotionally unstable psycho-pregnant doges" that need to be held in check by their "John Galt"-style male partners, or that otherwise will go on a murderous frenzy at any moment. Not only does this kind of storytelling personally just simply bore me, I also think the considerable backlash the show is already getting for this might become genre-damaging: We guys here know first-hand that there are more than enough people that look at epic fantasy as nothing more than male dreams of wish-fulfillment. If the most popular fantasy show in the history of television ends with its literal female Silver Dragon Jesus going full PTSD as soon as her personal Nordic Messiah stops giving her his special blend of sexy lovin', that's going to be an image that will stick. - And that's going to be a memory that will hurt all of us whenever we are trying to get intelligent women interested in our hobby.
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Post by geoffrey on May 13, 2019 10:04:55 GMT -6
Since season 1 I have:
1. rooted for Daenerys to take the Iron Throne, and
2. hoped for Arya Stark to be OK.
While, technically, my first wish has been granted, the character of Daenerys has been thoroughly ruined for me. I am therefore left with only one single wish for the last episode:
Do not: Kill Arya. Turn Arya evil. Cripple Arya. Etc.
I just want Arya to end up OK. I care not for any of the other characters, nor do I care who sits upon the Iron Throne, nor do I care if the Iron Throne becomes permanently vacant. I was able to forgive all the other missteps taken by the series, but Daenerys going insane and torching children (after the show spent years showing how concerned she was about children)? That jumps the shark. I even would have been somewhat understanding if Daenerys was merciless towards the political elite of King's Landing and towards their soldiers. But the children? That is 100% diametrically the opposite of what we have ever seen from her.
Grade: T for Troll.
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Post by geoffrey on May 14, 2019 9:08:46 GMT -6
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Post by sixdemonbag on May 14, 2019 17:46:04 GMT -6
Ok, my worthless take on the story so far: Dany melting down the Red Keep and all the innocents within would make some sense and probably not cause much fan outrage. Even wiping out the entire Golden Company after surrendering to assert her dominance/fear and eliminate the only threat to her own army would make both character and plot sense. This would leave Dany in the morally gray area where GRRM lives and what makes the series so popular. This would give Jon/Sansa/Arya/Tyrion major pause and cause conflict between them and Dany and her Dothraki/Unsullied. This is where GoT is at it's best, i.e., when nobody is completely Chaotic Evil or completely Lawful Good. Instead, by having Dany wipe out the entire innocent populace of King's Landing, the showrunners essentially made Dany a mustache-twirling Super Villain in the span of a single episode. I can understand the fan frustration about this considering she has consistently been shown to protect the weak and powerless at all costs (even to the point of chaining up her own dragons.) I have no doubt that GRRM is planning something similar in the books, but I firmly believe it will occupy much more realistic gray area than what was shown in "The Bells."As for Euron/Cersei/Night King and the rest? Ultimately, they were inconsequential since Dany is the true Big Bad of Westeros. That's a nice inversion of tropes, but wasn't sold effectively. If Jon lands on the throne as some kind of reluctant King, that will be very disappointing since Jon is a generically bland "undiscovered true king in exile" and we've seen his character is fantasy many, many times before (Aragorn, etc.) Although, Jon constantly failing forward could be a cynical take on those who rise to power by GRRM, but I'm not sure that Jon's Lawful Good "moral purity" really fits with that cynicism (see: Ned Stark, etc.) In other words, Jon's character is essentially "wish fulfillment" personified and I don't think GRRM would reward such. I still think the Iron Throne will be melted/destroyed (if it hasn't been already, it's unclear) and Tyrion will end up in power with a new system of rule, backed by the Iron Bank/Golden Company to some extent. That makes the most sense to me based on GRRM's writing and philosophy. My overall hope is that GRRM is not a true nihilist whereby "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"* is the point he's trying to drive home in the series. *Lyrics courtesy of The Who "Won't Get Fooled Again":
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Post by talysman on May 14, 2019 21:17:07 GMT -6
I avoided this thread until I'd caught up on the show. Here are my thoughts.
CERSEI: From the first episode of the series, we knew it was going to end badly for her. Especially since (1) she's pregnant, and (2) there's an established prophecy that she'd only have three children, and they'd all die. Unless she had a miscarriage -- unlikely in an over-the-top uberdark fantasy like this -- that means she would probably die. And given how superbitter she became after the death of her children, and her blowing up the sept, that meant she would be dying "in office", so to speak. Only problem with this is her story basically seemed finished at the very beginning of the season, and her character was just going through the motions of villainy until she'd completed her role, so it felt a little flat. When the whole "ringing the bells means surrender" issue was raised, I expected her to announce a scheme to ring the bells and open the gates, to lead everyone into a trap, but that didn't happen.
JAIME: Always figured his recent "rehabilitation" wouldn't last. He was introduced as a despicable dick who would do anything for his sister, and in the end, he was dickish to Brienne and reunited with his sister. And since she had to die, he had to die. Not that big a surprise. More or less done effectively, but let's face it: he was never really a major character, just an add-on to Cersei.
DAENERYS: Also no surprise. Established early on that she regards the dragons as her children and loves them more than her subjects. Established early on that Targaryens are prone to going mad, and later she has problems feeling that everyone's reaction to the last Targaryen king's madness is justified. Established early on that she reacts badly to betrayal, and lest we get distracted by other betrayals, Cersei's behavior also counts as a betrayal. Established early on she will not rest until she reclaims her throne, and later established that she's uneasy with the idea of sharing it with a new husband. Oh, and she's basically female Elric of Melniboné. And also, there's the parallel between her and Cersei (three "children", will rage and kill for them, seek vengeance.) Lots of people were predicting this was a supervillain's origin story, and that's how it turned out. I think, though, that the reminders of all those things fell by the wayside for a season or two, so it felt kind of odd for her to start acting more like a Targaryen this season.
ARYA: Not quite as predictable, but there were some indications that she was supposed to be a badass, then they'd forget for a while, so a lot of people reacted badly when she killed the Night King, even though it made some sense. After all, I think it was only last season that she sparred with Brienne, who was a bit surprised that Arya was way better than expected. But it felt kind of a let-down when Arya changed her mind about killing Cersei at the last minute. There's strong foreshadowing that Arya's going to kill Daenerys next, so if that doesn't happen, her story ends kind of weak. Not sure if she will survive it all, but if so, I predict she will basically just leave, vanish to parts unknown.
TYRION: He's basically Lord Gro from The Worm Ouroboros, just in a more sympathetic light. Daenerys is probably going to kill him. We've even had her hint that she will kill him the next time he fails, and then he helped his brother escape. So yeah, gonna die like Lord Gro.
JON SNOW: Raised once from the dead as a side effect of the Night King's rise. Raised again through the power of the Lord of Light, who has now officially withdrawn from the world again, allowing two of his servants to die. Will probably die, just not sure how at this point. Daenerys, presumably. Or maybe indirectly: he'll feel compelled to kill the last dragon when it goes on a rampage and will die doing so.
SANSA: There were early predictions that, since a lot of GoT is based on the War of the Roses, Sansa is Elizabeth and will take the Iron Throne. Not sure how we will arrive at that point... but she's opposed to Daenerys, been shown to be dissatisfied with Jon, and basically schemed to pit them against each other, so there's at least some groundwork laid for this. But it's going to feel rushed if it happens.
What I'd like to see is some kind of overthrow of kings and nobles, the fulfillment of Tyrion's dream (and technically Daenerys's dream of "breaking the wheel", even though she didn't consider the implication that she's part of the wheel, too.) What's more likely, I suppose, is no one ending up on the Iron Throne, but local lords/kings remaining in power, and perhaps the Seven Kingdoms will remain united under a council of kings and maesters.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 21:52:38 GMT -6
Just finished watching the series finale; got up early for that. Would like to take that decision back, in retrospect.
Gonna be blunt here, friends - this has to be some of the very worst writing we have seen for a global franchise in the last few decades. The last time I remember somebody screwed up this badly has to be the Star Wars revival in the late 1990s, or when the Wachowskis tried to go full franchise with the "Matrix" movies. Discouragingly, dishearteningly bad. Cinematography, props, sound - all are top-notch, but it is clear that the writers of the show had long lost interest in their source material.
Not much else to say about the final episode: As somebody who enjoys José Romay's Youtube show, I knew about the leaks a while ago. They were so bad I couldn't believe it, from the resolution of the main plot up the part where a side character decides to lead his surviving entourage to an island that is known to be poisonous to outsiders to any book reader. Bad, not "different than what I expected"; just plain, disinterested, phoned-in screenwriting of the very worst kind.
Still so, the last episode of the show is interesting for any of us reader-types because it reveals how much GRRM really based his concept for ASOIAF on Maurice Druon's famous "The Accursed Kings"; in short, he did so a lot. Daeny is basically "The Black Prince", and Bran is set up to be "Charles the Wise". The other surviving characters also all find their equivalents in the Hundred-Year-War period, and/or the Tudor age. So, reading or rereading "The Accursed Kings", "A Distant Mirror", and similar books might come as a welcome addition, or in my case, as a consolation to this finale to the world's biggest TV series. A finale that many will likely regard as a glaring insult both to its fans and to its source material.
*Breathes in deeply, then breathes out.*
So, what I'm going to do after this is to restart "The Accursed Kings". I think I will also give "The Tyranny of the Night" another visit, and perhaps one or two more light-hearted series, like "The Nameless Dwarf". If anything, the last few weeks have intensified my love for fantasy literature. Even if I'm really, really unhappy with how GoT ultimately ended.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 6:33:05 GMT -6
1And that's all I mean: I enjoyed it. If you read more than that into this simple statement? That's on you, not me. Pip, what did we say about the passive-aggressive behavior, and the paranoia? - Nobody is policing opinions. Like Fin, when I open a thread and give an opinion on something as non-essential as a TV series, disagreeing with me is perfectly fine. Like, it would be fun to debate the show with some person who is really super-satisfied with the way they ended it. Not a big deal, really, or shouldn't be. Exchange between people is how ideas happen.
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Post by geoffrey on May 20, 2019 6:45:25 GMT -6
I am happy that Ayra was alive and well when the show ended. Other than that, I thought the show's ending ranged between terrible and ludicrous.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 10:04:43 GMT -6
Nah, beer is good. So your post was good. (I'm part German, this is how we reason in the Lands Beyond The Wall, sometimes.)
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Post by Falconer on May 20, 2019 12:15:18 GMT -6
Do you (y’all) remember the scene back in … must be Season 4 … where Jamie and Cersei have sex in a sept? People hated that because in the show it came across as a rape scene. The exact same thing happened in the books, but it differed in execution so that it does not read like a rape. I just point this out as an example of something that is “from GRRM” but was received completely differently due to execution.
Remember Ramsay raping Sansa in the show? Never happened in the books (Ramsay married someone else). This is an example where the showrunners got the real story “from GRRM” but decided to do something different.
So really IMO the jury is 100% out on how the real story will fall out.
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Post by geoffrey on May 20, 2019 13:05:28 GMT -6
Do you (y’all) remember the scene back in … must be Season 4 … where Jamie and Cersei have sex in a sept? People hated that because in the show it came across as a rape scene. The exact same thing happened in the books, but it differed in execution so that it does not read like a rape. I just point this out as an example of something that is “from GRRM” but was received completely differently due to execution. Remember Ramsay raping Sansa in the show? Never happened in the books (Ramsay married someone else). This is an example where the showrunners got the real story “from GRRM” but decided to do something different. So really IMO the jury is 100% out on how the real story will fall out. Same thing for Daenerys and Drogo having sex for the first time. In the show it is portrayed as not consensual, whereas in the book it is consensual.
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Post by Falconer on May 20, 2019 17:03:33 GMT -6
The big picture of resolution is GRRM’s: Dani dead, dragon gone, Jon exiled, Bran crowned, the North separate from the remaining kingdoms with Sansa as their queen, and Arya questing beyond Westeros. I disagree. I find it quite possible GRRM told them that Bran ends up ruling the North and Sansa ends up ruling the South, and Benioff/Weiss decided to flip it.
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Post by geoffrey on May 20, 2019 17:16:38 GMT -6
When July 12, 2019 rolls around in less than two months, it will have been exactly EIGHT YEARS since A Dance with Dragons, the most recently released book of A Song of Ice and Fire, was published. Assuming that The Winds of Winter is published this year, I think it prudent to give yet another eight years after that for A Dream of Spring to be published in 2027. Do we really think George R. R. Martin will be resolute in how things pan out in A Dream of Spring? So much will inevitably occur during that eight-year artistic process that the planned ending in Mr. Martin's mind will probably diverge ever more radically from the 2019 TV show, so that 2027's A Dream of Spring will quite likely have very little in common with the TV show that ended nearly a decade earlier. Now for the inevitable and morbid subject: Mr. Martin is 70 years old. According to the actuarial table, he will most likely live another 14 years. The odds are on his side to finish writing A Song of Ice and Fire. We need only exercise the patience of Job.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 3:57:50 GMT -6
So really IMO the jury is 100% out on how the real story will fall out. I think the great thing to take away from GoT beyond the hype is that it's an almost textbook example of somebody adapting a work without really having an understanding for it. No offense to all the magnificient people who have worked on it, and truly created magic, but - for the first few seasons, the show was basically "Tits & Treason". The books, however, are pretty self-aware, in comparison: As many reviewers have suggested, GoT seems to have a lot in common with the Japanese "Gin'eiden", and with the fantasy series "Berserk", in that the brutal and crass imagery is used to transport the writer's message, and not just there to create some sort of "violence porn". - It was my perception, all along, that Benioff and Weis (?) didn't get that, at all, but took many things simply at face value. So, yeah, I expect the books to be fundamentally different from the series, in many integral parts. Now for the inevitable and morbid subject: Mr. Martin is 70 years old. According to the actuarial table, he will most likely live another 14 years. Martin’s death would not necessarily mean the death of the book series. Look at Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy and The Wheel of Time for examples. So all is not lost in such a sad eventuality. It appears he has vetoed this, but this likely just means that the publisher is not allowed to move on without his consent. A supposed estate, I think, would rather go the Tolkien way.
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Post by talysman on May 21, 2019 14:04:06 GMT -6
Finally able to watch the finale. I'd heard one spoiler, because people are not a very nice persons. Even friends. And even though it was just one phrase -- "Bran the Broken" -- you can deduce a lot from that one phrase.
But for the most part, I was able to experience it unspoiled, although I was expecting it to be bad, because everyone was saying it was bad. And my reaction? Nah, not really bad. Could have been better.
I don't think the writing is bad. It's fine. There were choices I think weren't well thought out, but it worked well enough. It's the editing that was bad. Because they pumped up the lengths of each episode, starting last season, but really obvious this season... up close to the 80-90 minute range. But it didn't feel like they had 80-90 minutes of story each episode. A lot felt like padding.
I mean, the first 15-20 minutes was people walking around and staring at stuff.
Basically, the finale was an epilogue that was chopped off the actual final episode and stretched out to an hour and 22 minutes to make another episode. The whole final season has been sort of like that. Remember the first episode? It was basically meet-ups between characters, with nothing actually happening.
Daenerys dying was expected, although I expected Arya to do the killing. Sansa taking the throne of the North was more or less expected, although I thought she would somehow wind up with the Iron Throne.
Tyrion and Jon didn't die. That felt weird. Jon did wind up back at the Night's Watch, which is where it all started, so there was at least a partial sense of completion there.
Arya did in fact vanish into parts unknown, which is what I thought would happen.
As for the political resolution: it kind of felt weird that everyone accepted it so easily, but an elected king is the second-best solution, so it wasn't all bad.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 5:24:24 GMT -6
I don't think the writing is bad. It's fine. There were choices I think weren't well thought out, but it worked well enough. It's the editing that was bad. Because they pumped up the lengths of each episode, starting last season, but really obvious this season... up close to the 80-90 minute range. But it didn't feel like they had 80-90 minutes of story each episode. A lot felt like padding. I mean, the first 15-20 minutes was people walking around and staring at stuff. Basically, the finale was an epilogue that was chopped off the actual final episode and stretched out to an hour and 22 minutes to make another episode. The whole final season has been sort of like that. Remember the first episode? It was basically meet-ups between characters, with nothing actually happening. I think both the editing and the writing were, to be more specific than "bad", very "incoherent": This might be due to so many directors being involved, and there being no central cut room for the series - but it also leaves the feeling of a rushed production, which seems borderline absurd considering the prestige of this title. Padding certainly happened, but the wrong way - there is a difference between a story doing some subtle foreshadowing, and hiding integral info from the audience only to have the cinematic equivalent of a "jumpscare": Daenerys, as a character, needed more scenes, and more lines to make her turn to the dark side believable. That didn't happen; instead, we get scenes that seem completely out of sync with the later finale, like the Jon/Daenerys/Drogon ice cave joke. The same goes for Bran: Give him more dialogue! Make him a character, instead of basically "Dropbox Premium"! Make him struggle with his fate as someone who cannot be part of the human world, any more. Make him long for home! Something like that. Just imagine how those scenes could look like: Him warging (?) into his younger self just to be able to be with his dead siblings and his parents again. Or, show us what he thinks about those events of the past, and what he thinks of the idea power. Reveal that he sent Meera Reed away because he was concerned for her safety, not because he has become disattached. - Just ONE scene like that, per episode, and we have a character that the audience can root for. As to the final setup, with Arya Magellan, Sansa going full Mary Stuart, Bran being king, Tyrion being Hand, Brienne and Podrick building a new Kingsguard, and Davos, Bronn, and Sam being part of the council - and of course, with Jon leaving for the Lands Beyond the Wall: Not necessarily bad, but way too rushed, as well. You want to be on par with Tolkien, DO Tolkien: Spend some time with the characters, show how they adapt to their new life. Show Tyrion thoughtfully walking through the new Red Keep, and visit places that we saw in earlier seasons, as they are cleaned of the rubble. (There were apparently shots and a full set built, but they, too, didn't make the cut.) Show Sam and Gili's life together. Show how the maesters react to Bran, which could have been hilarious. Show Davos going home to his wife and the gazillion of children. Have Gendry and Arya have the usual "I'll wait for you" talk. Show Robin Arryn (?) and Sansa have a walk. THEN cut to the ending montage. - That's not being cheesy, that's giving the characters some closure, instead of basically bringing them back as a setup for a number of inconsequential jokes. This way, the only ending that got some real love was Jon's: It seems consequential to his character arc, and the way it's put together on the big screen gives the viewers closure. - Now, here, too, one has to nitpick that no actual Night's Watch soldiers were shown, and that the show could well have saved Edd, Jon's best friend in the North, from his death in episode 3, to give Jon a welcome there. As it is, though, even Jon's ending feels strangely detached. Devoid of detail, if you will. Maybe that's done so viewers absolutely get what's happening, without any form of distraction, BUT... Maybe it's really that a screenwriter got two days to finish the script for episode six, and had forgotten his good notebook at home.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2019 18:23:12 GMT -6
That’s what I meant, if I understood your post correctly. The big picture of resolution is GRRM’s: Dani dead, dragon gone, Jon exiled, Bran crowned, the North separate from the remaining kingdoms with Sansa as their queen, and Arya questing beyond Westeros. The specifics are, I should think, purely the Double-D’s. Of course, since the books aren’t yet written? What George intends now and what he writes in a year or two may not match up. Well, it looks like I was partially correct on my surmise, according to the actor who played him ... Bran the Broken being crowned king was one of two Bran plot points straight from GRRM himself. The other was Hodor’s story. www.syfy.com/syfywire/isaac-hempstead-wright-game-of-thrones-bran-endingYeah, this has been out for a while, actually. It will be interesting to see how GRRM spins this tale together, in the end: Bran is on the way of basically becoming a god. Unless he wants to go the "Dune" way (which would be boring, IMO) then I'm curious as to how he detaches the character from the world of the supernatural again. The same goes for Jon, and for Daenerys - both are, if the stories from the TV series somehow reflect what is going to happen in the books, going to be built up to superhuman levels. How is that plot going to be resolved in a way that makes sense - and also "sense within the context of the previous novels"? --- Also, this, courtesy of Reddit's Freefolk:
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