Founding date of Conflict Simulation Assoc. at U Minnesota?

[Malchor]

We know M.A.R. Barker was the faculty advisor in Fall 1974, and that Barker started at the University of Minnesota in 1972 (presumably for Fall '72 A Sept 8, 1972 press release from the University of Minnesota includes Barker as one of three new Chairs).

Anyone know the founding date of the Conflict Simulation Association at the University of Minnesota?

Or when M.A.R. Barker became involved?

Also, a more precise start date for Professor Barker would be appreciated.

[increment]

Nov 22, 2018 16:23:45 GMT -6 Malchor said:

Anyone know the founding date of the Conflict Simulation Association at the University of Minnesota?

I'd say October 21, 1972.

Nov 22, 2018 16:23:45 GMT -6 Malchor said:

Also, a more precise start date for Professor Barker would be appreciated.

I'm not immediately aware of any source that pinpoints when Barker got involved.

[Malchor]

Nov 22, 2018 17:50:55 GMT -6 increment said:

I'd say October 21, 1972.

Thanks, but why would you say that?

[increment]

Nov 23, 2018 5:30:59 GMT -6 Malchor said:

Nov 22, 2018 17:50:55 GMT -6 increment said:

I'd say October 21, 1972.

Thanks, but why would you say that?

The advance notice for the first organizational and planning meeting of the U of M CSA appears in a Twin Cities gaming zine called "Lifer". Lifer was run mostly by Dennis O'Leary (pre-Excalibre), Marshall Hoegfeldt, and Tony Kellen. By 1973, Lifer shows that Gary Rudolph was president of the CSA. At that point, you can also see the CSA advertising for members in broader forums like the Avalon Hill General (Vol 10 No 1). As far as I can tell from the fossil record, Gronan connected up with Marshall and those guys pretty much as soon as he got to the school. From there, it's pretty easy to imagine how he, Rudolph, and Barker ended up in the same room.

The best source I have for Barker's activities at this time is his notes to Wargamer's Newsletter, in #142, #144, #146, and #149. They refer to the student organization, and towards the end, to playing D&D with Mornard. Whenever you deal with WGN you have to take into account that contributions from America especially seem to take a couple months from when they were sent to get into print, so things appearing in the January issue (#142) were likely dispatched a couple months earlier.

[Deleted]

Phil is in "Who's Who," it might give his arrival at the U. I got involved in the CSA in October 73.

[Malchor]

Thank you increment  and @gronanofsimmerya for the info. 

[Malchor]

Nov 23, 2018 10:04:26 GMT -6 increment said:

The best source I have for Barker's activities at this time is his notes to Wargamer's Newsletter, in #142, #144, #146, and #149. They refer to the student organization, and towards the end, to playing D&D with Mornard. Whenever you deal with WGN you have to take into account that contributions from America especially seem to take a couple months from when they were sent to get into print, so things appearing in the January issue (#142) were likely dispatched a couple months earlier.

Wargamer's Newsletter #142 was published January 1974, correct?

So, you would extrapolate Barker dropped his letter to them in the mail about October/November of '73.

[Malchor]

Based on the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus, Student Activities Center, Student Organization Directories, the following are listed as connected to the Conflict Simulations Association (I presume these are the presidents): 

1972-'73: Gary Rudolph
1973-'74: Gary Rudolph
1974-'75: Alan Musielewicz
1975-'76: Deborah Naffziger, with a "c/o Barker" address
1976-'77: Michael Mornard (@gronanofsimmerya I keep, misspelling your name, leaving out the first "r", sorry)


Deborah Naffziger was Lady Anka'a hi Qoyelmu, one of Phil's 'founding players' in 1974. I would guess, this is her copy of EPT: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-QMrBth-TOV0/TjV_e8jnZbI/AAAAAAAADRc/xcgvaRp1Uq0/s1600/OEPT.jpg

Gary Rudolph, and Alan Musielewicz were also early EPT players as well, correct? They have both written Tékumel material. Alan Musielewicz claims to have been in Barkers first and last role-playing games.

[Deleted]

Malchor,
I have several phone lists. I can email them to you.

Persons Attending meeting of 5 NOv 1964

Arneson's Personal Blackmoor player list C. 1973-74?

MMSA phone list 1972

You have to email me, I can't remember which REAL name is connected to this other name. 

I will do some kind of blog post and post them up so all can see them. Super busy on the Kick Starter.


Griff

[Malchor]

Something I am still curious about is how Charles Monson came to know M.A.R. Barker and was close enough to him that they stayed in touch while Monson was at Duluth.

Plus, if there was a wargaming group at the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus, then just how many of the Twin City gamers were members.

[Deleted]

I would say that the person with the most sources for this would be increment. I would pester him about it.

My sources are patchy. I have a letter from Dan Nicholson where he is told the club starts in the fall of 63. Yet this is not the MMSA. It is a different group that meets at people's houses.

The main location for the wargamers is at Greg Scott's house up until about late 67.

Then I have the Corner of the Table Top which is the MMSA newsletter. It begins in January of 68. There are several rival groups. Membership is shared between them in many cases.

Seems pretty clear that Monson would take the 2+ hour drive down every week to do some gaming.

[Malchor]

I'm not clear on something though, there is something not adding up.

The following is paraphrased from PatW: playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-midwest-military-simulation.html

1965 Dave Arneson, Dave Wesely, Pete Gaylord, Dan Nicholson and Greg Scott were members of the Twin Cities Military Miniatures Club.

In 1969, Arneson talks to several professors about forming a wargaming group within the school, forming University of Minnesota Military History Club, which subsumed the prior Twin Cities club, required that two-thirds of its officers be U of M student.

November 19, 1971, Arneson announces the formation of a "companion group made up of non-students" called the Midwest Military Simulation Association (MMSA). But the University of Minnesota Military History Club retained its own authority but affiliated with the new Midwest Military Simulation Association group, along with several other clubs, including the Military History Club of the College of St. Thomas.

But in Fall 1972 we have the formation of the Conflict Simulation Association at the University of Minnesota.

This raises the following questions?

Did the Conflict Simulation Association subsume the University of Minnesota Military History Club?

Why the new name and reformation? (just a cooler name or another reason)

Where their two groups? (Conflict Simulation Association and University of Minnesota Military History Club)

What was the continuity here? (Surely the new folks running the Conflict Simulation Association knew of the University of Minnesota Military History Club as well as the existence of the Midwest Military Simulation Association.)

[Deleted]

Some of it is just inter-personal strife. Some was just people wanting to do their own fanzine and club. They all knew each other.

All the guys I interview just use the title: MMSA to talk about all the clubs.

Consider the amount of time and space involved in a minis game. If you play Napoleonic battles, you need a space that is at least 6x9 feet. The guys talk about playing Fletcher Pratt Naval Warfare at the U of M in a big meeting room. I have Dan Nicholson's collection of naval models. These are big lead ships. The ranges on gunnery are huge. I did a test game to get a feel for FP and I quickly realized my space was too small and it was about 15 x 15 feet. So they had their club, but they formed affiliated organizations in order to gain access to space.

The first club is the one formed by Ray Allard and which meets at his house. I cannot recall what it is called. Something like: the Minnesota military history and miniature collectors club. This begins in the fall of 1963.

It is a mixture of people. It has model builders, history buffs, and a handful of war gamers. David Wesely may be the oldest surviving member of that group, as he was at the first meeting.

You can easily just talk to people like Wesely, go friend him on facebook.

The letter from Dan Nicholson and the reply from Allard are on the secrets of blackmoor FB page. You can just click the photos choice and scroll down to it. I am glad to share artifact scans with other historians. www.facebook.com/blackmoorsecrets/photos/a.1177543648971815/1306056192787226/?type=3&theater

Griff

[increment]

Dec 30, 2018 12:01:15 GMT -6 Malchor said:

Did the Conflict Simulation Association subsume the University of Minnesota Military History Club?

Going into 1972, a lot the people in Arneson's circle had either graduated from the U of M or went to other nearby colleges, like St. Thomas and Macalaster. This must have taken some of the wind out of the sails of the U of M MHC. I don't know if there was any formal termination of the MHC as such, but as of its Jan 1972 meeting it had around a dozen members, whereas the MMSA had then about two dozen. More folks would graduate that spring, and we don't hear much about the MHC from that point on. Probably we would surmise that the CSA was filling a gap by that fall, but that it was being filled by different people with a somewhat different focus - not that there wasn't some overlap in participants, but it was an independent group rather than a formal successor as far as I can tell.

[Malchor]

Dec 30, 2018 13:45:08 GMT -6 increment said:

Going into 1972, a lot the people in Arneson's circle had either graduated from the U of M or went to other nearby colleges, like St. Thomas and Macalaster. This must have taken some of the wind out of the sails of the U of M MHC. I don't know if there was any formal termination of the MHC as such, but as of its Jan 1972 meeting it had around a dozen members, whereas the MMSA had then about two dozen. More folks would graduate that spring, and we don't hear much about the MHC from that point on. Probably we would surmise that the CSA was filling a gap by that fall, but that it was being filled by different people with a somewhat different focus - not that there wasn't some overlap in participants, but it was an independent group rather than a formal successor as far as I can tell.

There is a list of attendees of the Jan 1972 of the MHC?

Is there a list of the attendees of the Oct. 1972 meeting of the CSA? Or members from the 72-73 school year?

Even with you a dozen members of the MHC left, surely they were not all seniors and at least a few were left to join the CSA.

Are there any records of events that included the CSA participating in MMSA events? Particularly pre-fall of 1973?

[Malchor]

Dec 30, 2018 12:52:33 GMT -6 @secretsofblackmoor said:

Consider the amount of time and space involved in a minis game. If you play Napoleonic battles, you need a space that is at least 6x9 feet. The guys talk about playing Fletcher Pratt Naval Warfare at the U of M in a big meeting room. I have Dan Nicholson's collection of naval models. These are big lead ships. The ranges on gunnery are huge. I did a test game to get a feel for FP and I quickly realized my space was too small and it was about 15 x 15 feet. So they had their club, but they formed affiliated organizations in order to gain access to space.

Thanks, I reached out to Wesely.

Now about Fletcher Pratt. That is a game I would love to try out. But that is a whole different thread.

I think about a few spaces like this collisionproject.com/spaces/ (the concrete will be rough) perhaps working and a small mass of 3d printers churning out navies!

[Deleted]

Fletcher Pratt is a blast.

It is just a game system though. You have to do your own research on the ships to find out tonnage, speed, armament, and armor.

Once you have that info there is an equation for then creating your ship info sheet. As you take hits you read down the sheet total to see what weapons you lose and how it affects speed. Combat is all resolved by guessing a range and then measuring to see if you hit. it's like a mix between Lou Zocchi's alien space and Starfleet battles.

There is also a chart for armor range and deflection.

Two things I learned by playing it:

1. I was doing research and talking to David Wesely about it. When it came to destroyers I could not find an armor rating. I actually read an extensive Us navy history on WWII destroyers, so I am fairly well versed on them. But, still no armor rating? This was when I called Wesely and he informed me that destroyers are not armored! in the game a single shot from a large barrel gun will immediately sink a destroyer. If you are in a destroyer, do not go within range of Cruisers and Battle ships.

2. All ships have torpedoes. So in a game people will launch huge spreads of torpedoes which is a real pain for the ref to track. The thing is, there are not very many historical examples of surface ships using torps on each other in a small skirmish. I am going to simply disallow them in future battles, unless a certain range has been achieved. It just slows down play otherwise.

[Deleted]

By October of 1973, none of the "Blackmoor Boys" were showing up at the CSA.

And don't forget the group that met Sunday afternoons at the College of St. Thomas until the late 70s. Played a lot of Starguard with Larry Bond.

[increment]

I'm not aware that any formal attendance records survive, or even were taken, of these particular meetings. Of the dozen members still around the MHC in January 1972, there are plenty of familiar names: Fant, Megarry, and Krey, those sorts of folks. The CSA does seem to have been a different crowd. Hoegfeldt would be an example of someone in CSA circles who seems to have had some exposure to MMSA-driven events like Blackmoor, say.

[Deleted]

Jan 2, 2019 19:35:16 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

By October of 1973, none of the "Blackmoor Boys" were showing up at the CSA.

And don't forget the group that met Sunday afternoons at the College of St. Thomas until the late 70s. Played a lot of Starguard with Larry Bond.

This is supported by other narratives. The Blackmoor Bunch were play testing at that time. Most of the play tests happened at the Gaylord house.

Gail Gaylord is perhaps the least known and most significant member of the group. Not only is she the first woman to have played in Blackmoor, she also typed up all the drafts that Arneson sent to Gygax.