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Post by scottenkainen on Mar 16, 2018 9:11:39 GMT -6
It's important to bear in mind that Michael/Gronan is primarily a wargamer, and wargame referees tend to be more hands-off than RPG referees. I think this deserves its own thread. Gary and Dave, and Rob, and Jim Ward, and oh so many others back in the day, were simply "What are you going to do?" "These are the results." I'm not sure I even sure I understand what you mean. Other than describing the situation and resolving player actions, what more could a referee do? What does a typical "RPG referee" do that is less hands-off? Okay, let's discuss this separately. From a wargaming perspective, the DM is there to set up the initial scenario and resolve player actions. Added to the game since then are: -Adding additional plot hook characters -Adjust a "living economy" (how the influx of wealth from the PCs affects the world around them) -Coming to the table with story lines for the characters to pursue, individually and/or as a group -Roleplaying henchmen/hirelings/supporting cast characters (unless you reduce all their actions by loyalty checks?) -Roleplaying other characters (for entertainment value) What more can we add to this list? And is there a cut-off point on this list where we can say "Past this point is not how OD&D is played?"
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 16, 2018 12:29:38 GMT -6
I think you're defining "wargame" too narrowly. Wargames include more than just the tabletop battle; they include the diplomacy, intrigue, characterization, communication, reports, economics, disasters, weather, families, and more of the wargame campaign.
Both the D&D referee and the wargames referee are expected to set up all these things for the players and then dispassionately ask what the players want to do and tell them what happens when they do it. Their jobs are not identical, but I don't think the wargames referee is more hands-off than the D&D referee.
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oldkat
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Post by oldkat on Mar 16, 2018 17:53:50 GMT -6
I do not know what changed from 1974 to 1979, but something may have. There are but a few veterans from those days around that could possibly confirm anything--Rob Kuntz, Jim Ward, Michael Mornard, etc., being among them-- regarding to what extent the DM/Judge/Referee lent a hand in the progress of a typical D&D game session.
In Mike Carr's How To Be An Effective Dungeon Master section of the B1 (In Search of the Unknown/1978?) he states: "Second of all, a good DM remains "above the battle" and does not attempt to influence player actions or channel the activity in a particular direction." I underlined the latter because this seems to support a particular notion stated by some that such was the job of the referee.
However, Gary Gygax states in his own How To Be An Effective Dungeon Master section of his B2 (Keep on the Borderlands/1979): "The DM is also the designer of the situations and must bear in mind the abilities of his or her players." Notice he specifically states the players' abilities? He continues to say, "It is the job of the DM to see that the situations and characters balance. If things are too difficult, the players will become discouraged; too easy and they will become bored." Which seems to suggest (to me) that the DM must be prepared to adjust things (that he/she himself created) to compensate not only for the characters within the adventure, but the players abilities to understand and utilize their class functions. Sounds like more of a hands on than hands off perspective, to my mind.
In the end, whatever works for the game referee and his or her players, is likely the right choice.
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 17, 2018 11:21:38 GMT -6
Which is not to say that players have no responsibility for their own actions. I think Gygax is suggesting that if your party of first-level characters can't avoid getting slaughtered on the first level of the dungeon, you've made the level too hard and should do something about it, not that if your party of first-level characters goes down to the sixth dungeon level you should pull your punches and give them extra chances to escape or win.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 11:23:26 GMT -6
Also remember, Gary is writing long ago, before we discovered that the most effective way to solve problems like the players attacking everything that moves and dying repeatedly is to talk with them OUTSIDE THE GAME.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2018 17:01:31 GMT -6
This morning I realized something very important.
For the last several years at GaryCon, NOBODY is looking at the map except the caller.
OD&D is a game of treasure hunting and exploration. The map is VITAL. When I ran a game in NYC (see "Blog of Holding,") EVERYBODY was riveted on the map. There was even a second mapper.
And when we played, we were all focused on the map. The map gives you important clues... "hey, guys, notice this big blank space here" or whatever.
OD&D isn't about an old man finding you in an inn and giving you a quest. It's about hunting for danger, treasure, and adventure.
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arkansan
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Post by arkansan on Mar 18, 2018 17:09:03 GMT -6
This morning I realized something very important. For the last several years at GaryCon, NOBODY is looking at the map except the caller. OD&D is a game of treasure hunting and exploration. The map is VITAL. When I ran a game in NYC (see "Blog of Holding,") EVERYBODY was riveted on the map. There was even a second mapper. And when we played, we were all focused on the map. The map gives you important clues... "hey, guys, notice this big blank space here" or whatever. OD&D isn't about an old man finding you in an inn and giving you a quest. It's about hunting for danger, treasure, and adventure. Every game I've ever ran the players have centered their decisions in the dungeon around the map and on the surface of have spent much time consulting their maps to calculate supply needs, travel time, find shorter routes. I've found that the mapping helps them focus on critical resource management problems.
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Post by scottenkainen on Mar 19, 2018 8:23:44 GMT -6
For the last several years at GaryCon, NOBODY is looking at the map except the caller. I had started making my own secondary map, but stopped when I messed up on it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 10:48:34 GMT -6
You'll always mess up. The referee's objective is to always have the players wondering "Did we get teleported or does our map just suck?"
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Post by howandwhy99 on Mar 19, 2018 11:25:36 GMT -6
IME memory is a key element to gaming D&D and not only spatial mapping. What to remember matters, but it's up to each player. In the end every player is left with their own mental map. Not to imply seeking goals, scoring points, and going up in level is not more important.
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KrinnPhindalin
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Mar 20, 2018 17:05:57 GMT -6
You'll always mess up. The referee's objective is to always have the players wondering "Did we get teleported or does our map just suck?" And you succeeded this year. I forgot to mark secret on the doors and our party (or what was left of it) paid the price. My map did suck.
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Post by Fearghus on Mar 20, 2018 18:33:34 GMT -6
You'll always mess up. The referee's objective is to always have the players wondering "Did we get teleported or does our map just suck?" And you succeeded this year. I forgot to mark secret on the doors and our party (or what was left of it) paid the price. My map did suck. It was fine and got us where we needed to be. Although next time we should likely stick to the first and second levels.
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KrinnPhindalin
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Mar 20, 2018 18:49:23 GMT -6
And you succeeded this year. I forgot to mark secret on the doors and our party (or what was left of it) paid the price. My map did suck. It was fine and got us where we needed to be. Although next time we should likely stick to the first and second levels. That's exactly what I said, but everyone wanted to "beat" the dungeon. I know not to go deep in dungeons.
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Post by scottenkainen on Mar 22, 2018 8:30:56 GMT -6
You'll always mess up. The referee's objective is to always have the players wondering "Did we get teleported or does our map just suck?" On a mapping related tangent, does anyone ever just write down directions turned and distances covered instead of physically drawing a map? Does that work any better?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 11:21:51 GMT -6
I've never seen that, but you sure could. I've also seen a "trailing map," which is just lines on blank paper with distances marked and rooms roughed in.
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 22, 2018 12:32:22 GMT -6
I've also seen a "trailing map," which is just lines on blank paper with distances marked and rooms roughed in. That's the kind of map I usually make as a player, and it's almost always sufficient, especially because it's usually a one-off game where either the dungeon isn't very complex or even if it is we're just getting a sample-sized taste of it and the idea of using a carefully drawn map to locate hidden areas is outside the scope of what we accomplish in a single 3-4 hour game. Now, if I was playing in a regular campaign-game where we were repeatedly returning to the same dungeon, and especially if became clear that the DM's maps were drawn in such a way that this was a viable strategy, then trying to draw a spatially accurate map would become a priority, and would be seen as part of the challenge of the game. In that case mapping would be fun, because there could be potential rewards for doing it well. But where there aren't, where the only function of the map is to show where we've been and (hopefully) how to get back out, I'm not convinced that using graph paper and trying to record corridor lengths and room shapes accurately is really worth the effort.
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Post by oakesspalding on Mar 22, 2018 16:49:28 GMT -6
I've also seen a "trailing map," which is just lines on blank paper with distances marked and rooms roughed in. That's the kind of map I usually make as a player, and it's almost always sufficient, especially because it's usually a one-off game where either the dungeon isn't very complex or even if it is we're just getting a sample-sized taste of it and the idea of using a carefully drawn map to locate hidden areas is outside the scope of what we accomplish in a single 3-4 hour game. Now, if I was playing in a regular campaign-game where we were repeatedly returning to the same dungeon, and especially if became clear that the DM's maps were drawn in such a way that this was a viable strategy, then trying to draw a spatially accurate map would become a priority, and would be seen as part of the challenge of the game. In that case mapping would be fun, because there could be potential rewards for doing it well. But where there aren't, where the only function of the map is to show where we've been and (hopefully) how to get back out, I'm not convinced that using graph paper and trying to record corridor lengths and room shapes accurately is really worth the effort. I'm currently running B1 for my kids. My six-year-old son is totally into atlases and maps, so I thought he would love mapping. He was initially very enthusiastic, but he then started to find it difficult and frustrating even though I'm giving them the exact measurements on a battle mat. The thing about B1 though is that while the first level has an arguably INSANE layout, there's almost no empty space. Once you figure that out, the map becomes important for locating secret rooms, as you and others have implied, above. Save or Die had a good suggestion. There was no graph paper - or graph-parchment or whatever - in the middle-ages, so why not decree that you have to make your map on a regular sheet? Oddly, I think that takes some of the pressure off.
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raisin
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Post by raisin on Mar 23, 2018 11:26:05 GMT -6
So, my main group is a bit everywhere in the country and we definitely can't do a lot of real-life games. So the weekly game goes on over Discord. Any advices on mapping? Usually we've had one player that's really into map handle it and upload it between games to the server so that people can think about it between games, but most of my players don't map, or just don't understand my mapping instructions . I think the map, and mapping is essential to the game, so I'd rather not just give away the map, but it's difficult when I can't explain some strange shape since we're in audio only.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 12:20:10 GMT -6
Explain by words.
"The chamber has a wall that goes off North Northwest. At about ten feet it starts to curve. Another ten feet and it's curved about one point..."
neither Dave nor Gary were exact.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 12:22:36 GMT -6
It was fine and got us where we needed to be. Although next time we should likely stick to the first and second levels. That's exactly what I said, but everyone wanted to "beat" the dungeon. I know not to go deep in dungeons. "The further you go, the greater the danger, but the greater the reward." -- inscription at the gate of Greyhawk Dungeon.
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KrinnPhindalin
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Mar 23, 2018 12:24:44 GMT -6
That's exactly what I said, but everyone wanted to "beat" the dungeon. I know not to go deep in dungeons. "The further you go, the greater the danger, but the greater the reward." -- inscription at the gate of Greyhawk Dungeon. AKA Don't take a low level party to Level 4. Especially when the referee is rolling deadly on the random tables.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 16:24:12 GMT -6
If yew find this map yew kin hav thu trezur becuz I am ded Never fails!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 16:24:37 GMT -6
If you'd have succeeded, you'd have been richer than you can imagine.
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KrinnPhindalin
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Mar 23, 2018 16:38:18 GMT -6
If you'd have succeeded, you'd have been richer than you can imagine. If we succeeded, I would have retired my character.
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Post by delta on Mar 23, 2018 20:15:25 GMT -6
"The DM is also the designer of the situations and must bear in mind the abilities of his or her players." This is also synchronous with the rule for wandering monsters in OD&D which scales it to existing party size (Vol-3, p. 11).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 15:16:41 GMT -6
If you'd have succeeded, you'd have been richer than you can imagine. If we succeeded, I would have retired my character. To be fair, you were darn close. If you'd marked the secret door on the map you could have dodged the Ochre Jelly. Well, die and learn, right?
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KrinnPhindalin
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Mar 26, 2018 8:33:22 GMT -6
If we succeeded, I would have retired my character. To be fair, you were darn close. If you'd marked the secret door on the map you could have dodged the Ochre Jelly. Well, die and learn, right? I’ll get the treasure one of these years. Next year hopefully. If you let me play the frog-man when I find the treasure, I’m opening the Hop Inn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 12:04:37 GMT -6
I'd like to hear from scottenkainen on what he considers a less hands off RPG referee to be like.
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Post by scottenkainen on Mar 26, 2018 12:32:35 GMT -6
I'd like to hear from scottenkainen on what he considers a less hands off RPG referee to be like. I'm being summoned back! We started out this thread with me making the assertion that wargame referees tend to be hands-off. I've seen plenty of this while playing or observing convention wargames; the referee makes sure everyone knows the rules, then backs off and either passively observes or goes off and does other things. To some extent, a RPG referee can choose to be hands-off while running the game, usually in terms of how much is left to the players to track. For examples, I have long trusted my players to track their own XP, HP, money, and ammunition expended without tracking any of this myself. There are other ways an RPG referee can give up control of the game. When a referee lets his players tell him if they hit or saved (by letting them have the numbers they need in advance), rather than the referee telling *them* if they hit or saved, that abdicates some of the referee's responsibility to be making those calls. I've also seen at cons where referees have 3D layouts of the entire dungeon on hand. They can be cool to look at, but this is a huge abdication of responsibility on the part of the referee, who is now hands-off during game play on most mapping issues. There could be additional examples; these jump to my mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 13:56:41 GMT -6
Please elaborate.
For instance on (I think) your blog you seemed surprised at how "hands off" the ref for Quatre Bras was.
So, what were you expecting? What do you expect in a RPG?
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