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Post by foxroe on Sept 28, 2017 9:46:29 GMT -6
I've known of the existence of DBA/DBM for some time, but never bothered looking into what they were all about. After experiencing the sensation of an errant bristle inserting itself into my posterior this past week, I took a tour. I'm suitably inspired by what I see.
Ancients wargaming? Check. Simple rules? Check. Low cost miniatures? Check. Small-space gaming? Check. It hits all of the sweet spots for me, so what's not to love?
I've downloaded and read through the freely available 1st version of the rules, and even though I know it seriously lacks what later version have, I like what I see. The 3rd version of the rules are published in hardback in the UK, but are hard to come by on this side of the pond - but not impossible, so I'm thinking of dropping the dough for it.
Anyone here play? What are your thoughts? What do you like/dislike? Sell me on it (or not)!
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Post by howandwhy99 on Sept 28, 2017 10:56:36 GMT -6
I've only played a few times in the 90s. At that time it was the high bar for wargame designs and very popular. A large book with hundreds of unique historic units and a lot of the tedious balancing for simulating them was well regarded.
Edit: HOTT may have some more D&D relevance.
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Post by foxroe on Sept 28, 2017 18:47:54 GMT -6
Thank you howandwhy99. The HotT rules are essentially the same as DBA, from what I understand; however, I was looking specifically into Ancients gaming. I also was looking into PRESTAGS, which seems like good fun, but I balked at the eBay prices...
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 29, 2017 6:28:37 GMT -6
I'm a fan. I was introduced to DBA and HotT in my university days. More recently, I played DBM for a few years, during which no other war game seemed its equal. But since the authors parted ways and DBM split into DBMM and FoG I've "gone back" to DBA 3rd Ed and find it a neat, well composed game. I'd add to DBA's virtues that: a standard game runs in under an hour. The 3rd Ed. hardcover rule book is, IMHO, a real gem. The actual rules are covered in 14 pages. Then you get 16 pages of top down example graphics that (largely) focus on illustrating the movement rules. The remainder of the book gives you close to 400 historic army lists from (circa) 500BC to 1500AD, most of them with a few paragraphs of introductory historical context, followed by references to research and source texts upon which the lists are based. These references alone are a gold mine of fascinating material. I'm most interested in the "High Medieval" period (1071-1520AD), and in "Big DBA" which involves three regular armies per side. I suspect that howandwhy99 might have been referring to the WRG's 1st thru 7th edition Ancient/Medieval rules (1969-1987)? If so, I'd agree that these games involve "tedious balancing". DMB/HotT do also involve "point buying" elements from army lists, so that opposing armies are of equal "point value", but HotT is pretty simplistic here. However, both these games have a fairly limited number of generic troops classifications which all army lists have in common (a strength of these games. Kinda like chess, both players have use of the same "pieces", so it's what they do with them that counts). DBA involves virtually zero "balancing". A DBA army comprises 12 elements picked from an army list. Done. Different army lists are not even close to equal in all circumstances; so you really need to play your chosen army's strengths if you want to win. For me, DBA3 is pretty much the standard to which I compare all other wargames I encounter. Highly recommended
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Post by howandwhy99 on Sept 29, 2017 11:19:46 GMT -6
FWIW, let's say the "work load intensive" balancing of all those different historical troop formations had been accomplished in the hundreds by the authors of the big book we were using. That said, it's been some time for me since playing.
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Post by foxroe on Sept 29, 2017 11:24:41 GMT -6
Thanks waysoftheearth ! That's pretty much what I've been discovering as I read about it, and it's what I find intriguing about DBA. I think I'm pretty set on investing (mildly) into it, I'm just trying to grapple with the decision of which rule set to get. The original 1.0 version is freely available on-line; I've read through it, and I'm sold on the rules basics. I'm suffering a bit from analysis paralysis, though: do I get 2.2 to start and maybe grab 3.0 later (or 3.1 if it comes to pass)? If I decide on 3.0, do I fork over the nearly $50 for it, or do I get Sue Barker's $24 "intro" book? Dunno. An amusing side note, in all of this "research" I've been doing, I find it almost hysterical the ongoing "edition battles" with DBA. Some 2ed fans aren't happy with the the changes in 3rd edition, while 3rd edition fans welcome the changes; but most agree that everything is better presented than the Original edition rules. And there's always those that "strain at gnats" and argue over army composition and the effectiveness of various troop-types. Sound familiar?
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Post by foxroe on Sept 29, 2017 11:28:16 GMT -6
FWIW, let's say the "work load intensive" balancing of all those different historical troop formations had been accomplished in the hundreds by the authors of the big book we were using. That said, it's been some time for me since playing. Maybe it was DBM, which is a more "crunchy" version of DBA from what I understand?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 29, 2017 17:45:55 GMT -6
DBM has quite a bit more "complexity" than DBA. In DBM you typically have 3 or 4 "commands" per side, where each "command" is approximately equivalent to a standard DBA army. I think almost all DBM commands would have more than 12 elements, some a lot more, so you'll need a whole lot more figures to play DBM. In terms of troop classification, DBM also has every element as regular/irregular and as inferior/ordinary/superior. Some are also eXceptions. There's a AP point buy system for building armies which assigns point values to all these factors. Then there's a bunch more rules around working this stuff into actual play. DBA manages to drop the finer details without, IMHO, overly impacting the result. The battles do feel somewhat more abstracted (e.g., seen from a higher altitude), but I find it a neat balance between too much and not enough detail. In terms of edition wars, I can understand why some are annoyed with army list changes between 2.x and 3. Some (myself included) might have had a nice DBA2.x army which became illegal in the DBA3 due to list changes. Sometimes those miniatures are no longer in production, so... you're left with a broken army you can't fix perfectly. Kinda frustrating. On the other hand, it's another excuse to collect more miniatures Which edition you "should" buy probably depends more on who you are likely to play against. Perhaps consider getting the (cheaper) ebook (of one or more editions?) until you get a feel for what other folks around you are playing?
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Post by foxroe on Sept 29, 2017 18:08:21 GMT -6
Well, not that I have anything against eBooks (my Kindle and Nook are full of the "classics"), but I prefer dead-tree versions. Hmmm. For a few dollars less, I can get both the 2.2 book and Sue's 3.0 book published by Curry, instead of just the 3.0 hardback... Edit: ...but then that's less moolah for minis.
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 370
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Post by flightcommander on Sept 29, 2017 23:08:01 GMT -6
I have sadly not (yet) had the pleasure of playing DBA but I purchased Sue's book a while back, and ordered the complete hardback recently. There are a number of things I like about the rules — it's about as much complexity as I care to handle, the scale is flexible, the unit type breakdown is sensible, it looks to be fast-playing, I could go on. I'd recommend getting the hardback for (a) the diagrams and (b) the army lists, which are really quite expansive. Sue's book has a folksy introduction to choosing and painting your army and building terrain, and a seriously foreshortened army list (by comparison) that describes some iconic historical opponents but without much depth.
I was able to get Sue's book here in the States from Amazon in a few days; it took four months for the hardback to arrive from a private retailer.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 18:22:57 GMT -6
I played one game of DBA.
The "Paper Scissors Rock" element killed it for me.
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Post by foxroe on Sept 30, 2017 18:28:41 GMT -6
OK. I broke down shelled out for the 3.0 hardback. Looking forward to the Madness! I ordered from a States-side supplier ( On Military Matters) in case anyone else is interested.
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Post by foxroe on Sept 30, 2017 18:53:00 GMT -6
I played one game of DBA. The "Paper Scissors Rock" element killed it for me. It is a bit abstract, yes, but I'm willing to overlook that in light of the low-investment, space-savings, and the ability to play several games in one sitting. If the abstractness becomes frustrating, I can always fall back to Peltast & Pila.
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Post by derv on Sept 30, 2017 19:35:55 GMT -6
OK. I broke down shelled out for the 3.0 hardback. Looking forward to the Madness! I ordered from a States-side supplier ( On Military Matters) in case anyone else is interested. Good guys. I've gamed with one of them. They have an exhibitor table every year at the Cold Wars and Fall In conventions in Lancaster, PA. Their shop is located outside of Princeton, NJ.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 30, 2017 20:22:40 GMT -6
I played one game of DBA. The "Paper Scissors Rock" element killed it for me. It is a bit abstract, yes, but I'm willing to overlook that in light of the low-investment, space-savings, and the ability to play several games in one sitting. If the abstractness becomes frustrating, I can always fall back to Peltast & Pila. Yes, combat is decisive. So the game is about maneuvering for favourable match ups and denying your opponent the same
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 370
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Post by flightcommander on Oct 1, 2017 22:23:06 GMT -6
That's who I ordered from. I'd suggest asking for a delivery date estimate, and a reminder or two to send your order couldn't hurt.
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Post by foxroe on Oct 4, 2017 18:49:24 GMT -6
The book arrived today (which was sooner than expected). Physically it's very nice. Can't wait to start reading it tonight. Ah, that new book smell...
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
Posts: 370
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Post by flightcommander on Oct 6, 2017 21:40:35 GMT -6
Lucky! (Napoleon Dynamite voice.)
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 7, 2017 9:15:05 GMT -6
I also was looking into PRESTAGS, which seems like good fun, but I balked at the eBay prices... Yeah, the price of PRESTAGS is absurd, but it's a fun wargame. The thing is, all five interconnected wargames use the same base rules, so if you can snag a copy of any one of the five you should have the main stuff you need for all of them. You would be missing the counters (although one can create that stuff if needed) and specific rules/scenarios that go with each particular era. They all had similar counters, similar rules, same Combat Resolution Table (CRT), and so on. This might also be helpful: www.spigames.net/PDFv2/PRESTAGS.pdf
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Post by foxroe on Oct 9, 2017 23:41:20 GMT -6
That's kind of funny. I'm building myself some DBA "counters" using the standard base sizes, and I've been borrowing the icons from their SPI icons document. Didn't realize there were rules there as well! Thanks!
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Post by foxroe on Oct 11, 2017 22:37:18 GMT -6
Does anyone know what the best sources are for ancients miniatures (preferably 15mm)? It's looking like eBay, but I'd rather deal directly with sellers (in the US).
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akooser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 150
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Post by akooser on Oct 15, 2017 7:16:10 GMT -6
In the US I use khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/ quite a bit for dinosaur and undead armies to historic armies. However I use ebay for the bulk of my 15mm miniatures. Most of the higher quality 15mm are made outside the US. Sue's DBA 3.0 book is pretty amazing. I've run DBA off and on for about 10 years now. It's my go to wargame when we want something short-ish but with some depth to the tactics. It's also great for large campaigns.
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Post by foxroe on Oct 15, 2017 9:35:07 GMT -6
In the US I use khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/ quite a bit for dinosaur and undead armies to historic armies. However I use ebay for the bulk of my 15mm miniatures. Most of the higher quality 15mm are made outside the US. Sue's DBA 3.0 book is pretty amazing. I've run DBA off and on for about 10 years now. It's my go to wargame when we want something short-ish but with some depth to the tactics. It's also great for large campaigns. Excellent, thank you! Yes, I've noticed that eBay seems to be the predominant outlet for 15mm ancients. As you say, the quality (and quantity) appears to be foris US. I received an excellent Lulu coupon in my email last week, so I binged on some wargaming books - Sue's book was one of them. I decided on it since I love reading about the crafting aspect of wargaming, but also to help with the so-called "Barkerese" ( although my MAR-Barkerese is up to snuff ). It also may help with introducing other neophytes to the game. Honestly, "Barkerese" is not that bad. I think reading Bath and Featherstone (and watching a lot of BBC) has helped put a great many things into context for me, and not just with DBA.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 21, 2017 1:25:45 GMT -6
I've been pondering Gronan's comment over in the custom tiles thread for a while: For me, the Hundred Years War period is relatively broad in scope and attractive grounds for gaming. (Compared to, say, the Wars of the Roses period, where you essentially have the one army list beating on itself). Anyways, all this noodling has caused me to dig my "100 years" box out of the attic, and to dust off my Wars of the Roses and Medieval French armies (15mm scale, mostly Essex). I'm pretty sure I can mashup a couple of credible 100YW armies for DBA3 and get a battle going. I'll try to snag some photos along the way, if/when it happens...
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Post by swordofkas on Oct 26, 2017 22:46:10 GMT -6
I'm not much of a wargamer, but I find ancient history and warfare to be really interesting. I read through some of the rules and I do like them. I also love the huge range of army lists available for the game. This site has a lot of armies for DBA as well: www.dbaol.com/armies.htm
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Post by foxroe on Oct 27, 2017 9:40:53 GMT -6
In case anyone is interested, I created some "counters" based on 2mm element bases for DBA 1.0 (free download from WRG). The goal is to allow folks to try out DBA and decide if it's worth investing in and basing miniatures for the game. I printed each page out twice on two different colors of cardstock, then stuck them to the back of some self-adhesive vinyl floor tiles (40 cents each at your local home improvement store). Then I carefully cut them out with a hobby knife. There are enough counters to satisfy any army in the DBA 1.0 army lists.
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Post by foxroe on Oct 27, 2017 10:04:43 GMT -6
I've been pondering Gronan's comment over in the custom tiles thread for a while... Well, he does have a good point. I can't speak from experience (I haven't played a wide variety of wargames), but it does always seem to me like the key in most cases is maneuvering your pieces just so for the greatest tactical advantage. In a "normal" wargame, jumping through the rules-hoops only to lose the battle in the first couple of turns because your were out-maneuvered from the start would make for an un-fun few hours of gaming. The HYW (Crecy specifically) is a prime example. Running a HYW campaign with the DBA rules might be just the ticket in this case. Bows are +4 versus mounted, and Knights can't fight back (unless in contact). So, if you can move your Bow units into striking range while the Knights are in unfavorable terrain, chances are the Bows will chew them up. And all without having to run through the normal wargaming gauntlet of command effectiveness, several dice rolls, morale checks, etc., all of which would be quite frustrating for the French player who couldn't get his or her Knights into play right away!
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 27, 2017 18:15:22 GMT -6
What gave me pause was more the inference that the whole HYW period was uninteresting. There was quite a lot going on within those, what, 130-ish years. Both sides (French and English) involved a number of significant allies. The Bretons had their war of succession. The Scots invaded England. Field guns came into use. And more I'm sure. If we're talking specifically about just French knights rushing English archers, then sure; it usually falls out the way Gronan suggested. It's meant to--and can you imagine the stink if a rules set said it didn't? Given that, isn't it the player's role to not throw knights into set bows? Or to not have bows caught out of position? Knights on both sides could (and did) dismount. Foot could use pavises or mantlets. Bow could protect themselves from knights with terrain and/or stakes. Mounted could flank march bow in set positions. And so on. I was thinking that this is the more tactically "interesting" part of these games. Anyways... all fun stuff to think about
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 27, 2017 18:26:36 GMT -6
In case anyone is interested, I created some "counters" based on 2mm element bases for DBA 1.0 (free download from WRG). Free DBA 1.0 PDF. One significant amendment of later rules versions is the combat outcome for Blades. In V1.0 Blades are destroyed by chariots in good going. From V2.2 (I think? certainly by V3.0) Blades are destroyed by knights or chariots in good going.
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Post by foxroe on Oct 27, 2017 19:20:08 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the link, waysoftheearth; I neglected to include it in my post above. And I agree with you with respect to your thoughts on wargaming the HYW.
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