Early Blackmoor documents where a "Sex" stat is handy...

[Cedgewick]

Jon Peterson wrote on January 23, 2014 at the Comeback Inn:

Yes, well, "Sex" as in "sexual prowess" played a large role in the Blackmoor setting. The strong debt that Blackmoor owes to the Gor setting informs this. Early Blackmoor documents refer quite frequently to situations where a "Sex" stat would come in handy, if not downright essential to survival.

What early Blackmoor documents could Peterson be referring to?  I am guessing that the Blackmoor Gazette & Rumormonger #2 that he mentioned in his blog about issue #1:

...Curiously, however, we see no reference to dungeons. This is especially noteworthy as the next issue of the BMG&R (which seems to date from the following year) talks about little other than dungeons...

Could the "Sex" stat come in handy against a Sorceress in the dungeons of Blackmoor perhaps mentioned in BMG&R #2?

Perhaps the early Blackmoor documents that Peterson has discuss the exploits of Marfeldt the Barbarian (FFC 1e pg. 20):

Known to be wandering South of Blackmoor, this creature has wrecked several kingdoms to the East and may be responsible for the divisions in the Great kingdom...Reaching the poor hill tribes, Marfeldt (for that is the name he used) was disgusted by the poor hides and livestock presented as tribute, although that was all that was expected. Taking his squad of men he exterminated the first tribe to the last man, taking all their women and valuables. The gathering hordes of hillmen objected to his tribute collecting shortly thereafter, and the Barbarian returned with a few wenches loaded with Gold to the capital. Pleased by the Gold and women (although somewhat used at this point) the Duke directed that the Barbarian be promoted to Lt. and join the army being dispatched to quell the revolt of the Hill tribes.

Another line of thinking is that Peterson has some early Blackmoor documents about either the Duke of the Peaks or the Sirens mentioned in the Duke's biography (FFC 1e pg. 22):

This was originally the mortal Duke that sided with the Ran of Ah Fooh but has since spent his time changing sides in the wars between the Duchy of Ten and the Egg of Coot...The reason
that he has not been conquered is very simple:  The people will throw themselves on the invader offering him everything from wine to slave girl no matter how cruel the invader may act. This has the effect of totally demoralizing the enemy army and if garrisons are left they are absorbed by the populace in a fortnight. This attrition applies even to those he pass through the area and has much the same effect of Lotus eaters and Sirens (both of which abound in the area).

Anyone else know of any early Blackmoor documents where a "Sex" stat would come in handy?

[Malcadon]

I can totally see this is an impotent stat for Adventurers as the ability to control the passion of others is a powerful tool in social encounters and political plays. After all, when Conan is not surviving by the prowess of his sword, he is indulges by the prowess of his "dirk", and sometime even his "dirk" gets him out of a tight scrape. This needs not be limited to sex and seduction, but can also be used while carousing — which in turn can be used to attract followers or curry favors — as as to inspire a degree of respect in others through awe and envy, and even induce love, sexual desire, jealousy and betrayal. A good example of this is how Princess Aura thought she could turn Flash Gordon into her personal plaything, but he end up turning her against her evil father.

If one is to split Charisma into separate categories like Appearance, Leadership, Sexual Prowess, etc., I can see Sexual Prowess in the following way:

Sexual Prowess: This score represents raw sexual magnetism and prowess. This is the ability of a character to seduce people (of the same sexual inclination) into sexual intimacy; to satisfy a partner in sexual congress; and to be put others (regardless of their gender and sexual inclination) in awe and envy over their the character's magnetism and prowess. Someone with a vary low score would be awkward at all levels of seduction and intimacy, if not outright creepy, while someone with a vary high score would be a rockstar sex idol with abilities that seem supernatural in nature.

I enjoy the simplicity of having one attribute cover a wide facets of a character, with Charisma in my games covering Appearance, Leadership, Luck (the favors of the Gods), Sexual Prowess and the like. As such, a highly charismatic character is a highly attractive, well-loved and blessed sex-symbol.

[aldarron]

The sex stat is on the character sheets. Keeping in mind that these were mostly 20 something college kids, it's not surprising that a lot of sex and innuendo appear in the Blackmoor campaign. An example where the stat might "come in handy" was when the beautiful maiden appeared and seduced a Blackmoor character, and turned into a deadly snake during their embrace as related by Gregg Svenson's first dungeon adventure.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2017 8:46:17 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The sex stat is on the character sheets. Keeping in mind that these were mostly 20 something college kids, it's not surprising that a lot of sex and innuendo appear in the Blackmoor campaign. An example where the stat might "come in handy" was when the beautiful maiden appeared and seduced a Blackmoor character, and turned into a deadly snake during their embrace as related by Gregg Svenson's first dungeon adventure.

These were mostly 20 something college guys. In my group in college it was 50/50 men and women and while we were not PG by any means, because of the player mix our game did not indulge in sophomoric humor.

[Deleted]

My first wife was at least as likely to engage in sophomoric innuendo as any of the rest of us, if not more.

Your Woman May Vary.

[Malcadon]

Jun 12, 2017 10:52:54 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Your Woman May Vary.

So vary true.

Oddly enough, I only know vary few women who objected to having sexual or sensual elements as a focus of play, and even then, they were ether teen/young-adult girls who are unaccustomed to adult-fantasy or more uptight girls with ideas on "sexual objectification". (Although, "objectifying" fictional characters, more so Player Characters, is kinda the point with RPGs.) For the most part, I have played with women who were ether indifferent to such adult topics, or outright embraced it (usually WoD fan-girls). The later ones can be the most fun to play with, as they can be the least predictable as players, and as GMs, they will unleash their Id on the players! Hell, I know a player who's sexual awaking came from watching watching Labyrinth, to were if someone introduce an Elf NPC that looks even remotely like David Bowie from the movie, she would have her character high-dive on his iconic bulge without a moment of hesitation! To me, that girl knows how to play!

For my part, I run games with a lot of mature themes, were people in the settings have less of an issue with sex and casual nudity than in our own (more prudish) world. Heavy topics like rape and sexual slavery are not downplayed or shied away form, and with no bias towards age or gender of the victims. And I'm not above "objectifying" (such a stupid term) male and female characters with shameless displays of scantly-clad beefcake and cheesecake warriors, or throwing gay boy-toys among a seraglio of harem-girls. (Mind you, a number of my lady-players really... REALLY... like the cheeky elements.)

[xerxez]

Could be funny in some settings. Just like, a straight roll to see if a charismatic character can use it to resolve a situation. Wouldn't go over with my wife's family, whom I game with. When I game with my older friends there are no women present and on the odd occasion it can get a bit ribald. However, I did game awhile with a group where a couple was in attendance where the wife, an older lady, would, no matter what character she was playing, try to seduce every NPC and spent the entire game seeding very suggestive humor. 😮

[Malcadon]

Years ago, I always wanted a system within D&D to gauge a character's sense of contentment and moral with an effect that rewards or punishes players for they way they (mis)treats their characters.

That is, if a player tries to put the character in a miserable state, like poor-living (little and/or nasty food, uncomfortable bedding, etc.) too much heavy-labor for little reword, idleness to the point of boredom, and the like, the character suffers some sort of mechanical penalty due to depression. On the other hand, if a player spoils his or her character go through self-indulgent living and revelry (feasts, games, orgies, comfortable bedding with lovely young bed-warmers, etc.), count his/her hard-earned swag, getting that one attractive person to bed him/her, and the like, then the character would have a corresponding game bonus due to self-contentment.

The core idea was two-fold: 1) Discourage players from abusing their characters do things that no sane person would do in real-life with a "no skin off my back" mentality (e.g. having an otherwise selfish character scar his palms trying to pick-up gold coins that became too hot to handle, knowing that it would just heal through magic, even though the player in the same situation would say "they're not worth the effort"); 2) Giving a reason for a character to risk banging that hot, scantly-clad chick, that to a savvy player, might just be a trap-monster (Succubus, Kelpie and the like).

Since the advent of Hero/Luck/Fate Point systems used in a number of games, and the way the 5e Background system works, I have used such systems to reward players for allowing their characters to be greedy, self-indulgent and sexually gratified, that is universal but secondary to (and overruled by) their personal quirks, interests, and motivations. In the spirit of Conan and other larger-than-life S&S heroes and heroines, I assume
that D&D characters, in general, are greedy, sexually frustrated murder-hobos.

[Deleted]

Seeing it purely as an RPG stat may be the wrong context.

[havard]

I wonder if this could have been used to determine chances of producing offspring. This could be another leftover from war gaming where producing an heir etc would be important. I think sex is also listed as one of the "hobby" activities PCs can engage in when spending their gold in order to gain XPs (for gold) in the FFC.

-Havard

[Malcadon]

Jul 25, 2017 14:56:51 GMT -6 havard said:

I wonder if this could have been used to determine chances of producing offspring. This could be another leftover from war gaming where producing an heir etc would be important. I think sex is also listed as one of the "hobby" activities PCs can engage in when spending their gold in order to gain XPs (for gold) in the FFC.

In other words: Fertility and sexual-potency.

With the former, it could be used to determine chance of pregnancy, or even the chance to avoid it (withdrawal-method, rhythm method, etc.). The latter need not be limited to the background pastime of hyper-masculine heroes like Conan. It could also drive a story or to develop characters. Remember how Delilah tricked Samson into telling her his one weakness? Or when Princess Aura thought she could enslave Flash Gordon through sexual passion, only for him to turn her against her own father? (Not to mention a good chunk of Game of Thrones. )


I can see a "Sex" stat noting adjustments at different ratings:

Seduction: Adjustment to reaction roll when seducing someone (within the person's sexual inclinations). Use the Retainer Reaction Table, with 12 meaning that the target of seduction will curry favor (needs not be sexual in nature), and a 2 means that the character did or said something that hurt his or her reputation.

Satisfaction: d% chance to pleasure a sexual partner. This could be used to curry favors and to maintain a sexual relationship.

Fertility: d% chance to produce offspring or to avoid it through some method.

Unearthly Beauty: Anyone with extremely high Sex score can induce the effect of a charm person spell on anyone who sees the character as a gaze attack. This can only effect an individual once per day, although the effects of the spell can last for as long as it takes, as noted in the spell's description. As this is not an actual spell, dispel magic and anti-magic shell will not effect this ability, but Wisdom can still adjust the saving throw.


How does that sound?

[havard]

That's pretty cool Malcadon. I think you are spot on with the range that ability score might have covered.

As to literary references, another example could be the later books in the Dune series where the Honored Maitres (and others, not to spoil anything) are able to use sexuality to control others.

-Havard

[Finarvyn]

Jul 25, 2017 18:39:36 GMT -6 Malcadon said:

Seduction: Adjustment to reaction roll when seducing someone (within the person's sexual inclinations). Use the Retainer Reaction Table, with 12 meaning that the target of seduction will curry favor (needs not be sexual in nature), and a 2 means that the character did or said something that hurt his or her reputation.

This is the one that seems most likely to me. It would seem to be reflected in Conan and many other of the stories of the day where the hero seems to get his way because he's just so darned charming. Unearthly beauty would probably be an NPC stat and not a PC option, IMO.

[Deleted]

We're inclined to see a lot of interpretations by commentators on this thread as being a bit too literal.

Arneson says he was reading Conan. Well, yeah - But if he's reading Conan he's likely already read a lot of things. It just happens to be that he read a Conan book right before doing Blackmoor. Arneson never mentions Lord of the Rings, yet one can spot infleunces from LOTR in Blackmoor if one wants to find them; one can just as easily see infleunces from anything else because the genre is so full of common tropes. Look at anything and you can come up with a fairly flawed assertion: Duane Jenkins is a vampire, thus Brahm Stoker is the influence for Blackmoor charatcers!

As to monster movies; he got some ideas or inspiration from seeing some. It's likely he'd seen a lot of them. Greg Svenson says the Black pudding is derived from The Blob. (We may be having brain damage and it was another 50's B grade movie critter.) The point is that there is an influence, but there are so many.

When you look at the stats on the spanish royals, these stats are more likely a mixed form of adjudication that was used in the napoleonic campaign. i.e. for health: every campaign turn you roll to see if someone gets sick. In the case of Sex, it's likely a combo with the Looks attribute. And as others have mentioned a bit of teenage rules making. Remember, Dave is pretty young when he does his first Blackmoor games. Many of his players are even younger.

We doubt Peterson would keep to some of his his older assertions, because Jon relies on fairly direct attributions; even more so today. Maybe he has a letter that has Dave talking about the Gor books? We don't know. The quoted lines in the first post rely too much on vague inference that just does not stand up to the kind of logic required for the creation of a pathology. Certainly no one will doubt that sex is there as an attribute.

The attributes you see early on are carry overs from Napoleonic games. Dave is merely re-using everything that he is using in the military campign, in order to create characters in his fantasy campaign. And again, Jon did not have access to this information when he wrote his book. Some of his assertions are moving targets and he will likely update his assertions as he goes along.

For Arneson's napoleonic campaign we can infer that the sex stat likely has an influence on whether or not there is a child produced in a marriage, or whether or not, one or the other party is likely to cheat on their partner. But we don't actually know this as fact. None of his original players can reproduce what was going on in the campaigns machanically as far as these stats are concerned. Arneson is applying Free-Kriegspeil concepts to his games. Much of his adjudication comes in the form of judgements without actually informing his players of what Mechanic he is using. In fact all the indications are that in the first few Blackmoor games there were no rules at all -- Arneson was just faking it; it was pure role playing, just as in a Braunstein game.

In the case of Malcadon's posts, those are good ways of applying this stat. It does not reflect the limitations of the time period when those stats were created. The term "reaction roll" is a modern gaming convention, when the Blackmoor Bunch are doing their first games there are no conventions aside from some mechanical rules imported from all over the place.

Sorry for the long post. What we're trying to say is pretty simple: Without any documentation, all that one can do is note the existence of the attributes and make some kind of conjecture on their use; one cannot make any kind of assertion beyond that that has any scientific credibility. There is a certain point where one has to repeat the horribly depressing phrase: we just don't know.

[Malcadon]

Jul 26, 2017 13:06:46 GMT -6 @secretsofblackmoor said:

What we're trying to say is pretty simple: Without any documentation, all that one can do is note the existence of the attributes and make some kind of conjecture on their use; one cannot make any kind of assertion beyond that that has any scientific credibility. There is a certain point where one has to repeat the horribly depressing phrase: we just don't know.

Fair point, and I'm well aware how pre-D&D role-playing games differs for the more technical gaming of the D&D books based on all the information gathered in the old-school community, as well as how spotty our information is in those early days. Without a time-machine, a Medium or Christopher Walken to cut through the vial of time, we may never know the true meaning of the scant artifacts found from the early days of the game.

Due to that, I'm not too interested in authorial intentions. [innuendo]I want to stimulate my head and shoot wads of ideas at the wall to see what sticks.[/innuendo] In other words: I'm here for some lighthearted "fan-wank".

[increment]

Jul 26, 2017 13:06:46 GMT -6 @secretsofblackmoor said:

We doubt Peterson would keep to some of his his older assertions, because Jon relies on fairly direct attributions; even more so today.

Um, I think I'm still good here, but this isn't an area I'm spending a lot of time and effort clarifying.

[Finarvyn]

ADMIN NOTE:
This led to several posts about the Gor series. I moved those to their own thread.