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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 10:06:07 GMT -6
Elves defend as Heavy Foot. Ogres attack as six Heavy Foot, and True Trolls as three Armored Foot.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 7, 2017 17:07:26 GMT -6
So the elf attacks using the fantasy combat system, and the troll attacks, simultaneously, using the mass battle system?
Presumably then, if I'm playing 1:1 scale with the M2M rules, the troll still attacks as six men with whatever weapon the figure has.
I noticed just now that the description of elves specifies that they need to throw a 7+ to beat an "Ogre" rather than a "Troll/Ogre". p31 says True Trolls fight as Giants on the FCT, but only as three AF versus men. So perhaps the elf needs to throw a 10+ to beat a Troll (since elves need 10+ to beat Giants).
Meanwhile the description of Trolls (and Ogres) says: Ogres are killed when they have taken an accumulation of six... hits in normal combat. Elves can kill them with three hits, and... magical weapons kill them with a single hit. It's easy to think this is saying elves with magic weapons can kill ogres in a single hit in normal combat.
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Post by derv on Apr 7, 2017 19:09:52 GMT -6
Magical weapon kills trolls on an 8+. Troll gets 3 dice as 3 AF vs HF where a 5,6 kills. M2M troll would count as 6 men for determining attacks. Trolls cannot be killed in normal combat.
As for Ogres, if you want to use the combat table for the resolution of an elf with magic sword, he would get two dice. HF vs HF = 1 die/ 6 kills (+1 die for sword). Otherwise, Ogre is killed on a 7+.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 7, 2017 19:23:51 GMT -6
Magical weapon kills trolls on an 8+. *If used by a figure that can kill a troll without the aid of a magical weapon. Being: hero-types, balrogs, elementals, and giants. So it seems it doesn't apply to elves with magic weapons (unless the elf also happens to be a hero-type). |
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Post by derv on Apr 7, 2017 19:57:18 GMT -6
My version reads "If used by a figure that can kill a troll without the aid of a magical weapon, adds two to the dice score."
I understand the listing below to be an addendum to the FCT for True Trolls. These are the only types that can kill them. So, a Hero needs a 10+ against a Troll, where he would only need a 9+ against an Ogre. But, a Hero with magic sword would need an 8+ to kill a Troll or Ogre (+1 on FCT). A Super Hero with magic sword would need a 6+ to kill a Troll and a 4+ to kill an Ogre.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 7, 2017 20:36:59 GMT -6
My version reads "If used by a figure that can kill a troll without the aid of a magical weapon, adds two to the dice score." You're right derv; I didn't initially see the "adds two to the dice score." part because it's on the next page. So, a Hero needs a 10+ against a Troll, where he would only need a 9+ against an Ogre. But, a Hero with magic sword would need an 8+ to kill a Troll or Ogre (+1 on FCT). Not sure I quite follow this derv. My current understanding (someone please educate me if I'm wrong) is that the entries appearing on the FCT under "Troll, Ogre" relate to the Tolkien-type Troll, which CM prefers to call "Ogre" or (on the FCT) "Troll, Ogre". The Anderson-type Troll, which CM prefers to call "True Troll" fights as a Giant on the FCT, excepting that they can only be killed by hero-types, balrogs, elementals, giants, and magic weapons. I agree the values given under the True Troll explanation (CM2 p30, CM3 p34) appear to override the scores that heros, superheroes, balrogs, elementals, and giants would otherwise need to kill a True Troll on the FCT. The score those types require to beat a Giant on the FCT are: 11, 9, 8, 9, 9. The amended values for True Trolls are: 10, 8, 8, 6, 10. So a True Troll is more resilient versus giants, but more vulnerable to heroes, superheroes, and especially elementals. I also agree now that an Elf with a magic sword can kill a True Troll with a throw of 8+. On the other hand, a Hero can beat a True Troll without a magic weapon with a throw of 10+. With a magic weapon he needs a throw of only 8+, but because he could beat the True Troll without a magic weapon, he adds 2 to his throw. Hence, a Hero with a magic weapon effectively needs to throw a 6+ to beat a True Troll. Thoughts? |
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Post by derv on Apr 7, 2017 21:01:13 GMT -6
Not sure I quite follow this derv. My current understanding (someone please educate me if I'm wrong) is that the entries appearing on the FCT under "Troll, Ogre" relate to the Tolkien-type Troll, which CM prefers to call "Ogre" or (on the FCT) "Troll, Ogre". The Anderson-type Troll, which CM prefers to call "True Troll" fights as a Giant on the FCT, excepting that they can only be killed by hero-types, balrogs, elementals, giants, and magic weapons. It's not clear if you're implying that there might actually be three types- Ogres, Tolkien Trolls, and Anderson Trolls? I think the text is only talking about two types- Ogres and Trolls, or you could say Trolls and True Trolls. Anyway, where it says True Trolls fight as Giants on the FCT, it would be better stated that they attack as Giants. This value is used against all found on the FCT. But, they need only defend as per the addendum on p.34. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 7, 2017 21:11:01 GMT -6
I think the text is only talking about two types- Ogres and Trolls, or you could say Trolls and True Trolls. Anyway, where it says True Trolls fight as Giants on the FCT, it would be better stated that they attack as Giants. This value is used against all found on the FCT. But, they need only defend as per the addendum on p.34. Yes. |
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Post by derv on Apr 7, 2017 21:21:35 GMT -6
I also agree now that an Elf with a magic sword can kill a True Troll with a throw of 8+. On the other hand, a Hero can beat a True Troll without a magic weapon with a throw of 10+. With a magic weapon he needs a throw of only 8+, but because he could beat the True Troll without a magic weapon, he adds 2 to his throw. Hence, a Hero with a magic weapon effectively needs to throw a 6+ to beat a True Troll. Thoughts? I agree that it can be interpreted that way, but then both hero and super hero both effectively need 6+. I feel the elf and hero should be closer to equal standing instead of the hero and super hero. Thus, I think the modifier is to the base score of the type instead of the weapon. Compare the scores needed for the Hero and Super on the FCT. Also consider if you were using those scores against a Giant and adding one for a magic sword. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 7, 2017 21:48:44 GMT -6
I think the modifier is to the base score of the type instead of the weapon. Okay... but what score does a Wizard with a magic sword then need to beat a True Troll? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 23:02:44 GMT -6
On the other hand, a Hero can beat a True Troll without a magic weapon with a throw of 10+. With a magic weapon he needs a throw of only 8+, but because he could beat the True Troll without a magic weapon, he adds 2 to his throw. Hence, a Hero with a magic weapon effectively needs to throw a 6+ to beat a True Troll. Thoughts? You're adding the +2 bonus twice. A Hero kills a True Troll on an 8 or better. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 23:04:33 GMT -6
Okay... but what score does a Wizard with a magic sword then need to beat a True Troll? True Trolls can only be killed in Fantastic Combat against Hero-types, Balrogs, Elementals and Giants — magical weapons will also kill True Trolls. Use the combat table below: Opponent: Dice Score to Kill Hero 10 or better Super Hero 8 or better Balrog 8 or better Elemental 6 or better Giant 10 or better Magical Weapon 8 or better* Since a wizard is not a Hero-type, Balrog, Elemental, or Giant, the answer is 8 or better. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 7, 2017 23:45:42 GMT -6
True Trolls can only be killed in Fantastic Combat against Hero-types, Balrogs, Elementals and Giants — magical weapons will also kill True Trolls. Use the combat table below: Opponent: Dice Score to Kill Hero 10 or better Super Hero 8 or better Balrog 8 or better Elemental 6 or better Giant 10 or better Magical Weapon 8 or better* Since a wizard is not a Hero-type, Balrog, Elemental, or Giant, the answer is 8 or better. Yes, that is how I read it... but derv seemed (if I understood his post correctly) to imply that a magic sword would add 2 to a wizard's basic score, but of course the wizard doesn't have one, so it gets the default 8+. You're adding the +2 bonus twice. A Hero kills a True Troll on an 8 or better. Presumably you mean a Hero with a magic weapon kills a True Troll on an 8+? I think what I'm hearing is the correct way to read it is that a magic weapon adds two to the hero's target number of 10, or to the superhero's target number of 8, or otherwise requires an 8+. So at the end of the day heroes, elves, and wizards with a magic weapons all require an 8+, and only the superhero with a magic weapon requires a 6+. I can see that is a "nicer fit"; it wasn't obvious to me that's what it was saying. Thanks for the interesting diversion  The revelation for me is that while Elves attack certain monsters on the FCT, those monster respond against elves with normal attacks. So we simultaneously play fantastic and normal combat. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 1:34:27 GMT -6
Yeah, I meant hero with magic sword.
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Post by derv on Apr 8, 2017 6:19:18 GMT -6
I think what I'm hearing is the correct way to read it is that a magic weapon adds two to the hero's target number of 10, or to the superhero's target number of 8, or otherwise requires an 8+. So at the end of the day heroes, elves, and wizards with a magic weapons all require an 8+, and only the superhero with a magic weapon requires a 6+. Yes, this is what I was trying to say. Actually, it can be deduced that any normal figure that picks up a magic sword could kill a True Troll on an 8+. Though, a more conservative reading of the magical weapons section might conclude that only elves, hero-types, and only the highest level of wizard can wield magic swords. It might amount to what type of game do you want to run? The revelation for me is that while Elves attack certain monsters on the FCT, those monster respond against elves with normal attacks. So we simultaneously play fantastic and normal combat. This is because elves are normal types and still defend as HF even when armed with magic swords. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 9, 2017 1:24:08 GMT -6
The revelation isn't so much that elves defend as HF in normal combat; it's more that elves (with magic swords) attack on the FCT during what would otherwise be "normal" combat.
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