Magic Swords - awesome fun times!

[harlandski]

I've just read through the "Explanation of Magic Items" beginning on p. 27, and I was bowled away by the description of intelligent swords, not because it's a new concept, but because if I understand correctly M&T suggests that all swords are intelligent (though some not very, and/or lack communication ability). But I find it really refreshing - I've always found something pretty lame about a +1 sword when that's all it does.

I've looked at other threads here, notably Are all magic swords intelligent in your game?, and I see that the minority of people actually use these rules all the time (and for good reasons), but for where I'm sitting it sounds like a whole lot of chaotic fun!

[tetramorph]

I always use these rules.

In fact, I tweak them so that there is no low-intelligence +1 sword.

The darn thing has too be more interesting than a +1 mace!

[tetramorph]

Oh, and have you seen Paul Gorman's book on Magic Swords for Swords and Wizardry.

Awesome.

[foxroe]

Mar 9, 2017 11:06:46 GMT -6 harlandski said:

I've just read through the "Explanation of Magic Items" beginning on p. 27, and I was bowled away by the description of intelligent swords, not because it's a new concept, but because if I understand correctly M&T suggests that all swords are intelligent (though some not very, and/or lack communication ability). But I find it really refreshing - I've always found something pretty lame about a +1 sword when that's all it does.

I've looked at other threads here, notably Are all magic swords intelligent in your game?, and I see that the minority of people actually use these rules all the time (and for good reasons), but for where I'm sitting it sounds like a whole lot of chaotic fun!

I had the same reaction when I first read that. At first I thought it was "silly", but after some soul searching (aka "reading up" on these and other fora) I realized that magic swords in OD&D are pretty much a class ability for Fighting-men since no other class can use them.

[harlandski]

Mar 9, 2017 13:24:40 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Oh, and have you seen Paul Gorman's book on Magic Swords for Swords and Wizardry.

Awesome.

I have now! Does look really cool!

[Deleted]

All magic swords IMC are intelligent and I only use the high end of the spectrum for Int and Ego. See the other thread you reference above for more.
EDIT: since the other thread is not readily accessible to everyone I am appending my other notes here:

All magic swords IMC are intelligent, and all are dangerous companions as they all have INT and EGO as 1d4+8 for a minimum of 9 for each. All swords have a backstory and a purpose that is specific to that sword and each one is a unique one of a kind. All swords seek to dominate the relationship. Some swords, however, start as a blank slate and are malleable and they grow as the (first)owner grows. These swords are tight with their first owner and it is his (or her) purpose that is imbued into the sword. Some say that such a first owner, if he dies while wielding the sword, will have his soul drawn into the sword, and the sword will forever seek revenge on the killer and the killers descendants until the end of time.

Other weapons may also be intelligent, such as axes and maces. IMC a paladin has two routes to paladinhood, one as a fighter and one as a cleric (Paladins of the Sword)&(Paladins of the Mace). The intelligent axes are primarily a dwarfish weapon, in the original conception. Once I moved to a campaign without elves and dwarves I kept the axe.

[idrahil]

Not until I started learning about OD&D did I have such fun with magic swords. They are so awesome and memorable. Unlike the thousands of +1, +2, etc. stuff.

Its funny because some of my first fantasy gaming that I was able to dedicate time to was the Grail Quest books from the 80s. Nothing like Excalibur Junior....an absolutely epics sword that destroyed enemies...and suffered from severe arachnophobia!

[countingwizard]

I've read and reread these rules many times, but I'm just constantly confused because of how these rules are laid forth. If I understand it correctly, you:

1. Roll for basic sword type on the random magic sword table
2. Determine alignment
3. Determine if the sword has a special purpose
4. If still necessary you determine the sword's intelligence and ego score
5. If necessary determine primary powers, extraordinary abilities, and languages

From that point forward, it appears the ego score (not the int+ego) is compared directly to the level of the character wielding it, and during nearly every key situation unless the difference is 6 or more.

1. Sword Ego is 6 or more than character level: The sword communicates its abilities to the wielder, controls the wielder, changes the wielder's alignment to match its own, and acts appropriately for that alignment. When a key situation arises the sword will react as stated without contest.
2. Sword Ego is 2-5 more than character level: 75% chance the sword does as above when first picked up, and 75% a sword is successful in key situations.
3. Sword Ego and character level difference is only 0-1: 50% chance the sword does as above when first picked up, and each stressful situation triggers a check to see who takes control, with the sword taking control 50% of the time. Also will need to check for key situations at 50% sword success rate (even though this is not mentioned).
4. Sword Ego is 2-5 less than character level: 25% chance the sword does as above when first picked up, and 25% sword is successful in key situations.
5. Sword Ego is 6 or less than character level, or loses the struggle: Sword communicates its abilities to the wielder, but is under control while in the wielder's possession. The sword is never successful in key situations.

The more complex "influence of egoism" check only occurs with special purpose swords when, "...any attempts by their users to go counter to [the special purpose]..."

And it appears the key situations are:

1. Better weapon present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder to pass it up.
2. Great danger present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder into combat despite overwhelming odds.
3. Higher level creature/character with a smaller absolute value level difference is present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder to surrender the sword to the creature/character.
4. Lower level creature/character is present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder to surrender the sword to the creature/character. 
5. Treasure is being split amongst party members. Check failure: Sword receives a full share of the treasure as a character would.

Looking at this logic, key situation 3 and 4 appear to be in a cycle loop. For example, if the sword was ego 12 and a level 1 and a level 2 character were in a room together, they would stand there forever handing it back and forth unless one of them was killed by the alignment effects, or declined use of the sword. If they survived, and a level 12 finally entered the room, the sword would be given to them and finally be under control.

You would basically be cursed to haul a strong ego sword around offering it every single person you meet, and if someone excepts it, it becomes their burden unless they are just the right level or higher.

Weird stuff.

[oakesspalding]

Not to be flagrantly huckstering, but you might want to check out my OD&D "neo-clone" Seven Voyages of Zylarthen (It used to be free on digital, though now you have to pay $6.67 for the revised electronic edition.)

I thought the weird and cool vibe of the OD&D intelligent magic sword rules was great (subsequently lost in later editions) but I believed it needed to be cleaned up and the premise explained and drawn out a bit.

EVERY magic sword is intelligent, has alignment and is powerful (though, some swords are more intelligent and powerful than others).

There are so many great role-playing possibilities this brings up. Finding such a sword is, on balance, a good thing, but there are all sorts of things that may go wrong...

In Zylarthen, all characters are assumed to be Lawful, but this doesn't mean that you have to be a goody-goody. So possessing that Lawful sword (which may be totally dedicated to the cause of Law, whatever the momentary circumstances) may sometimes have annoying results.

[countingwizard]

I've got all the physical booklets. I read them over looking for something else a few months ago, but I wasn't paying attention to the magic sword rules at the time. I'll take a look.

For the longest time we've been trying to run it in the order its presented, but since we are rolling these up at the end of a 6-8 hour session, we're usually too brain dead to figure out wtf the book is trying to explain.

[oakesspalding]

Mar 10, 2018 0:40:41 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

I've got all the physical booklets. I read them over looking for something else a few months ago, but I wasn't paying attention to the magic sword rules at the time. I'll take a look.

For the longest time we've been trying to run it in the order its presented, but since we are rolling these up at the end of a 6-8 hour session, we're usually too brain dead to figure out wtf the book is trying to explain.

Thanks! By "rolling these up" (at the end of the order presented?) do you mean character creation, the sword rules or something else? Or were you talking about OD&D?

[countingwizard]

I mean we usually roll up the random treasure assortment when we encounter a treasure pile, and these tend to be towards the end of a session.

[tetramorph]

countingwizard, the rules are, as in most cases, crazy to try to follow here. I like your reading of it and it is helping me to see new things, but there are some things I can see what you are seeing:

How do you read it as Ego and NOT intelligence. What I see in my copy is Intelligence/Ego. Now that is equally mysterious. Is this a ratio? An either/or? Is it: the ratio of intelligence over ego is 6 or more points above . . . Or is it: either the intelligence or the ego is 6 or more points above . . .

And then, above what? You say character level. But that is completely unclear to me. My copy just says "above that of the character who picts it up." What does that mean? Above the level, as you suggest? Above the characters intelligence/ego? Is that a ratio, or either/or? Either way, Ego is not a character statistic. So what is it referring to?

How are you getting your reading of this being something to check every time the same person wields it? It makes sense, but it is not clear to me from the text.

I see what you mean about a loop between your 3 and 4, but I can't see that actually coming into real play.

The main thing that bugs me is how convulted the description is. Even you have to bring forward the "special purpose" information and interjected above where it is actually described in the rules. But that is, of course, in order to avoid the frustration of rolling everything only to turn the page, roll the dice, and find out that it actually has a special purpose after all!

In my house rules I go something like this:

Determine Alignment
Determine kind by alignment (meaning amount of bonus and if it has life-drain or whether it is cursed)
Determine if sword has target (this part includes swords with "locate" abilities, wishes, flaming, or the ability to charm)
Determine if the sword has purpose
Determine nature of word of power
Determine Int and Ego
Determine language(s)
Determine background and fame (this is my thing)
Determine powers
Determine extraordinary power, if applicable
Determine make (my thing)
Determine special ego demands, if applicable
Check ego-influence

I see that I have been reading the rules incorrectly assuming that the initial control check was to be judged the same as the later ego influence check. Good call. But it makes sense that many of us would make that mistake.

Fight on!

[Stormcrow]

Mar 9, 2017 11:06:46 GMT -6 harlandski said:

I was bowled away by the description of intelligent swords, not because it's a new concept, but because if I understand correctly M&T suggests that all swords are intelligent (though some not very, and/or lack communication ability). But I find it really refreshing - I've always found something pretty lame about a +1 sword when that's all it does.

I know this post is a year old now, but...

A magic sword with an Intelligence of 6 or less is basically the same as the common idea of a sword +1, except it also zaps people of the wrong alignment and breaks spells on them, etc. In later versions of the game, rolling a sword +1 is just a shortcut to rolling a sword of Intelligence 6 or less.

[Finarvyn]

Mar 9, 2017 18:39:47 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Mar 9, 2017 11:06:46 GMT -6 harlandski said:

I've just read through the "Explanation of Magic Items" beginning on p. 27, and I was bowled away by the description of intelligent swords, not because it's a new concept, but because if I understand correctly M&T suggests that all swords are intelligent (though some not very, and/or lack communication ability). But I find it really refreshing - I've always found something pretty lame about a +1 sword when that's all it does.

I've looked at other threads here, notably Are all magic swords intelligent in your game?, and I see that the minority of people actually use these rules all the time (and for good reasons), but for where I'm sitting it sounds like a whole lot of chaotic fun!

I had the same reaction when I first read that. At first I thought it was "silly", but after some soul searching (aka "reading up" on these and other fora) I realized that magic swords in OD&D are pretty much a class ability for Fighting-men since no other class can use them.

And probably is a clue as to how Moorcock's works influenced the creation of OD&D. Elric's Strmbringer is the best example of an intelligent sword that I can think of, and Elric's listed in Appendix N.

[tetramorph]

Finarvyn , and don't forget Poul Anderson's Tyrfing from the Broken Sword!

That is the PERFECT cursed sword! I've modeled all my cursed swords after it.

[countingwizard]

Mar 10, 2018 18:37:32 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

countingwizard , the rules are, as in most cases, crazy to try to follow here. I like your reading of it and it is helping me to see new things, but there are some things I can see what you are seeing:

How do you read it as Ego and NOT intelligence. What I see in my copy is Intelligence/Ego. Now that is equally mysterious. Is this a ratio? An either/or? Is it: the ratio of intelligence over ego is 6 or more points above . . . Or is it: either the intelligence or the ego is 6 or more points above . . .

And then, above what? You say character level. But that is completely unclear to me. My copy just says "above that of the character who picts it up." What does that mean? Above the level, as you suggest? Above the characters intelligence/ego? Is that a ratio, or either/or? Either way, Ego is not a character statistic. So what is it referring to?

How are you getting your reading of this being something to check every time the same person wields it? It makes sense, but it is not clear to me from the text.

I see what you mean about a loop between your 3 and 4, but I can't see that actually coming into real play.

The main thing that bugs me is how convulted the description is. Even you have to bring forward the "special purpose" information and interjected above where it is actually described in the rules. But that is, of course, in order to avoid the frustration of rolling everything only to turn the page, roll the dice, and find out that it actually has a special purpose after all!

...

I see that I have been reading the rules incorrectly assuming that the initial control check was to be judged the same as the later ego influence check. Good call. But it makes sense that many of us would make that mistake.

Fight on!

I missed that on page 27 somehow. I revise my outline of the process.

p.27 M&T



If a non-player character is directed to take up a sword the damage will be only one-half that stated above, for the party is not acting as a free agent. Additionally, the sword might cause the one who took it up to be freed from a spell, change alignment or otherwise gain powers which would remove them from the service of their former master.



In addition, if the Intelligence/Egoism of the sword (see below) is 6 or more points above that of the character who picks it up the sword will control the person, even causing him to become aligned as the sword is, and he will immediately act accordingly...

Whenever any situation arises where any of the above [key situations] exists the Egoism of the sword comes into play. It is always exerted in its relationship with its user, although true rapport may be gained if the alignment and aims of the character/user coincide with the origin/purpose of the sword. The determination of each of these factors is as follows:

Influence of Egoism in Key Situations: ...[describes int+ego+extraordinary abilities compared to that of wielder and their state of health]

Egoism in Continuing Relationship with the User: This determination is quite simple, being only a matter of comparing the Egoism score of the sword (1-12) with the level of the Fighting-Man using it. Consult the table used for Key Situations above [the difference/result table that tells % of outcome]. If either party has a positive difference of 6 or more that party will always prevail and no other checks (including Key Situations) need be made. A positive difference of 2-5 will indicate that the higher party generally prevails, and checks will only have to be made in Key Situations. A difference of 0-1 indicates a continuing struggle between sword and its user, and during any stress situation both should be checked as to which will prevail.

1. Roll for basic sword type on the random magic sword table
   
2. Determine alignment
   
3. Determine if the sword has a special purpose
   
4. If still necessary you determine the sword's intelligence and ego score
   
5. If necessary determine primary powers, extraordinary abilities, and language
6. Compare int+ego of sword to str+int of wielder (modify by physical condition?):
   • If sword is 6 or more above that of the wielder, the sword controls the person, breaking any control spells, causing him to become aligned as the sword is, and causing immediate action such as a neutral would deliberately lie about its powers, while chaotic would attack. (or at least each alignment to react accordingly to the party)
   • If sword is not 6 or more above that of the wielder, it is unclear what occurs. Should the probability chart be used? Should a struggle only occur in the next key situation?

From that point forward, it appears the ego score (not the int+ego) is compared directly to the level of the character wielding it on a continuing basis.

• If one side is 6 or more, they always remain in control regardless of physical condition of the character, unless it is a sword with a purpose in which case going against the purpose requires an influence check [int+ego vs str+int].
• If one side is 2-5, only have an influence check during key situations.
• If one side is 0-1, influence check during each stressful situation.

I'm guessing that unless reacting to a key situation in which it is given away, the sword winning the influence check means that the player changes alignment and acts according to alignment under control of the sword.

The key situations are:

1. Better weapon present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder to pass it up.
2. Great danger present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder into combat despite overwhelming odds.
3. Higher level creature/character with a smaller absolute value level difference is present. Check failure: sword leads wielder to surrender the sword to the creature/character. (is this only of matching alignment, or will the sword literally kill everyone it meats with counter-alignment damage?)
4. Lower level creature/character is present. Check failure: Sword leads wielder to surrender the sword to the creature/character. (same question as above)
5. Treasure is being split amongst party members. Check failure: Sword receives a full share of the treasure as a character would.

Also found another interesting bit I hadn't noticed.

p.29-30 M&T

...character's Intelligence and Strength (6-36) modified by a variable based upon the physical state of the user. If the character is fresh and relatively free from damage (less than 10% damage) from 1-6 points are added to his total. If mentally and/or physically fatigued, or if damage between 10% to 50% has been sustained, from 1-4 points are deducted. If damage over 50% has been sustained, or the character has been under a severe mental strain from some form of magic, 2-8 points are deducted.

So that means the physical state modifies the wielder's strength+intelligence score in the following way

Condition	Effect
Hitpoints are greater than 90%, or character is fresh	+1d6
Hitpoints are between 50-90%, or character is mentally/physically fatigued (excessive travel/movement?)	-1d4
Hitpoints are less than 50%, or character under severe mental strain from some form of magic	-2d4

[countingwizard]

So it seems that when the sword is first picked up, the more complicated influence check is used. Continuing use of the sword can either result in just a basic ego to character level comparison to determine if further checks are necessary. And further checks use the complicated influence check.

[murquhart72]

I feel like Gronan needs to toss in one of his "reading comprehension" insults here. Comes into to play when words typed out with one intent can be read as is, to get an entirely different meaning via a different point of view. It's interesting how many different interpretations you can find in just a few sentences.

[Deleted]

In my OD&D, there is a variety of spirits that like to bind themselves to swords. If the sword is in the hands of a great warrior, that warriors skill is learned by the spirit, which it can then pass on to later users.

Non-sword Magical Weapons are extremely rare.