Off Hand Adventures

[harlandski]

Hello,

I'm wondering about the distinction made in The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures between "offhand adventures" and "exploratory journeys". My understanding is that the former is a more or less random "hexcrawl" using the Outdoor Survival map, whereas the latter is a more organised attempt to reveal the (referee-designed) landscape around the characters' base of operations / dungeon, and can result in finding a place to build a stronghold.

I've read the very entertaining and thought-provoking Old D&D Setting, which has helped me to see how "offhand adventures" could be a whole lot of fun, and how the different parts could fit together.

I suppose my question is - how did these two types of adventure fit together: logically, geographically and in terms of game time? Were offhand adventures just a convenience when a player didn't turn up, or when the regular players wanted a break? Did you have to finish a dungeon crawl or "exploratory journey" before you could start an "offhand adventure", and vice-versa? Was any attempt made to explain how the players got from the locale around their base/dungeon to the terrain of the Outdoor Survival map and back again? Or was in-world logic not as important as in-real-life game fun? Or is there something else I'm missing?

I'd be interested in hearing both about how people did this in the 70s, and of anyone's experience or thoughts about it more recently.

Thanks as always!

[Finarvyn]

Mar 3, 2017 3:49:05 GMT -6 harlandski said:

I suppose my question is - how did these two types of adventure fit together: logically, geographically and in terms of game time?

I'm a big fan of "don't sweat the small stuff" and as such hardly ever worried about making my OD&D game fit a continual timeline.

Ever read the Appendix N material listed by Gary in AD&D's Dungeon Master's Guide? Much of the fiction listed is composed of full-length novels, but much is also composed of short stories which can be enjoyed in pretty much any order. Conan, Elric, Fafhrd & Mouser, and many others are great examples of those short stories. In them, heroes enter the scene and have an adventure and then wander off at the end. They tend to start dead broke and end with huge treasure, and it's assumed that somehow they lost it all on wenching and wine by the next time.

For me, an OD&D campaign is a lot like that. I may create a mega-dungeon or giant plot arc (novel) but most of the time it's a bunch of offhand adventures (short stories). If the plot arc is interrupted by a day when some of the party can't get together and we play some side adventure, I never worry about how that does or doesn't fit into the campaign timeline because my goal is to have fun rather than to create a consistent world. Maybe that's just me, but it's pretty much the way I've done it since I first found the game and ran an adventure in the 1970's.

[Sean McCoy]

Mar 3, 2017 5:53:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

For me, an OD&D campaign is a lot like that. I may create a mega-dungeon or giant plot arc (novel) but most of the time it's a bunch of offhand adventures (short stories). 

This is something I've been curious about as well. It's my understanding that the basic context for early play was a Dungeon (or megadungeon) and then a village above that. With the addition of the wilderness, do you now have multiple megadungeons? Or just smaller "one-off" dungeons with only a level or two? Were players assumed to always eventually come back to the big megadungeon? Or would they hexcrawl away from it, without really clearing it?

[Deleted]

"Hey, ya wanna go outdoors this time?" "Sure."

[Finarvyn]

Mar 3, 2017 14:26:38 GMT -6 Sean McCoy said:

Mar 3, 2017 5:53:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

For me, an OD&D campaign is a lot like that. I may create a mega-dungeon or giant plot arc (novel) but most of the time it's a bunch of offhand adventures (short stories). 

This is something I've been curious about as well. It's my understanding that the basic context for early play was a Dungeon (or megadungeon) and then a village above that. With the addition of the wilderness, do you now have multiple megadungeons? Or just smaller "one-off" dungeons with only a level or two? Were players assumed to always eventually come back to the big megadungeon? Or would they hexcrawl away from it, without really clearing it?

My campaigns can have many different dungeons of various sizes. I started my original campaign with one dungeon, then built a village for the PCs to rest in when not adventuring. Then I developed some of the area between the two. Eventually this expanded into an area map and I added in castles, other towns, monster lairs, and the like.

[harlandski]

Mar 3, 2017 5:53:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Ever read the Appendix N material listed by Gary in AD&D's Dungeon Master's Guide? Much of the fiction listed is composed of full-length novels, but much is also composed of short stories which can be enjoyed in pretty much any order. Conan, Elric, Fafhrd & Mouser, and many others are great examples of those short stories. In them, heroes enter the scene and have an adventure and then wander off at the end.

This comparison is really helpful, especially having read some Conan, Elric and Fafhrd & Mouser stories, and it's great to hear how this has been reflected in your OD&D game style!

[harlandski]

Mar 4, 2017 0:35:50 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

"Hey, ya wanna go outdoors this time?" "Sure."

So, the game's the thing, right?

[Deleted]

Pretty much. The simplest answer is usually the right one. Years back on Rob Kuntz' forum... since lost to a system crash... I asked Gary about his principles for designing CHAINMAIL. His answer began with, "First and foremost, it is a GAME."

See also the editorial in Volume 1 Number 2 of "The Strategic Review" on the same subject.

[harlandski]

So my next question about offhand adventures, assuming I'm going to follow the guidelines given in The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures is: What is a sensible party strength to make such adventures fun and challenging, but not completely deadly? I'm thinking of character levels as well as hirelings etc. If I can persuade my group to try an OD&D campaign, I want to know when would be an appropriate point to suggest they might want to go on an offhand adventure. If I can't persuade them to go 'all in' on an OD&D campaign, I would like to run an offhand adventure as a kind of one shot to showcase the game, though it would probably not be such a great advert for the game if everyone died too quickly!

[derv]

Are you asking how would you run an off hand adventure in the wilderness using the OS board? Or are you asking how someone would put together a quick introductory one shot, with either an indoor or outdoor setting?

Both Blackmoor and Lake Geneva campaigns made extensive use of the OS board in their regular games.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't go out into the wilderness until the PCs were sixth level or so. 3-5 PCs with henchmen, and possibly some mercenaries as well.

[Sean McCoy]

Mar 4, 2017 14:04:26 GMT -6 derv said:

Are you asking how would you run an off hand adventure in the wilderness using the OS board? Or are you asking how someone would put together a quick introductory one shot, with either an indoor or outdoor setting?

Both Blackmoor and Lake Geneva campaigns made extensive use of the OS board in their regular games.

I actually just got a copy of OS for this exact purpose but any help on how to use it effectively would be awesome.

[Starbeard]

Mar 4, 2017 15:50:32 GMT -6 Sean McCoy said:

Mar 4, 2017 14:04:26 GMT -6 derv said:

Are you asking how would you run an off hand adventure in the wilderness using the OS board? Or are you asking how someone would put together a quick introductory one shot, with either an indoor or outdoor setting?

Both Blackmoor and Lake Geneva campaigns made extensive use of the OS board in their regular games.

I actually just got a copy of OS for this exact purpose but any help on how to use it effectively would be awesome.

You could use it a couple of different ways. I've used it as the literal campaign map just like any other hexmap, like those from the Greyhawk or Mystara settings.

Gronan would be the one to ask about this, but assuming I've interpreted the anecdotes correctly then Gary at least used it simply as 'the wilderness' whenever there needed to be wilderness. If you were at some location and said, 'Alright, we go outdoors and head east', he'd pull out the OS board and start you along the west edge. Moving off an edge just looped you back around to the other side.

That kind of format seems great for a one-shot, or 'offhand adventure', if that's what you're looking to do. Have the players start on one side of the board, with the goal of getting somewhere, finding something, or slaying/capturing someone. And definitely, make liberal use of the section on castle occupants when preparing & running. That will provide lots of entertainment right there.

You could even use two copies of the OS board, to make the best use of the rules for getting lost. The players get the board, and you as referee have a printed copy where you keep track of their actual location. That way they only know that they've gotten lost when the terrain of the hex their in doesn't match what they've got on their board.

Also, here are some cards I made awhile back to use aspects of the actual OS game rules in wilderness exploration (my overland travel rules are in the post directly above this one): odd74.proboards.com/post/181500/thread

[derv]

As presented in the LBB's it does take on a somewhat boardgamy feel. It's not overly complicated. Essentially figure out your parties movement allowance and start off at one of the building hexes (towns). Use the terrain costs as given in OS and use your full movement allowance for each turn. A turn equals a day and each hex equals five miles. You can place a miniature or token on the board to represent the party.

Clear 1 point, Woods/rough 2, desert 2, mountains 3 (trails through mts. 2), rivers 3, swamps 4 (U&WA 3), trails 1, fords 1.

So, a party of five adventurers on light horses have a move allowance of 8 hexes. They could move through 8 clear hexes or 4 wood hexes or any combination that costs 8 or less points. If the party is 100 or larger in size, they incur a 1 hex penalty (resulting in a 7 hex allowance instead).

On entering the first hex check to see if the party is lost (p.18 U&WA) based on that terrain type. If lost, roll a d6 to determine what direction they will travel. Then move them in that direction. They are allowed one point of direction change off that course after the first move. Repeat this process each turn.

After they move, roll for wandering monsters based on the terrain type of the hex they ended up on (p.18 U&WA). Repeat this each turn. If a monster is indicated, roll to find out what type. Then reference p.3-4 M&T for number appearing, % chance in lair, treasure type. Check for surprise and sighting distance. Make a reaction roll if necessary (p.12 M&M) and resolve the encounter. You can also allow the party to spend a day searching the hex if the lair was not found, if you want.

A party can move six consecutive days, then must rest in place for one day. Wandering monster checks still apply on day seven.

It involves a bit of on the fly role playing and description to keep it interesting and engaging. Though, their is always the chance that the party might end up too close to a castle and end up on a quest or under a geas.

What's nice about the OS board is that it comes in three sections. So you can keep moving the first section over as a party moves along. Or they could decide to go back to the safety of their town by the end of the session. You can add attrition and fatigue rules too, if you want to encourage this.

[harlandski]

Mar 4, 2017 14:04:26 GMT -6 derv said:

Are you asking how would you run an off hand adventure in the wilderness using the OS board? Or are you asking how someone would put together a quick introductory one shot, with either an indoor or outdoor setting?

I was asking about the appropriate party strength to have a fun game on the OS board, which gronanofsimmerya answered so clearly. But your question has brought out some really useful extra information about this, so thank you!

[harlandski]

Mar 4, 2017 15:50:32 GMT -6 Sean McCoy said:

Mar 4, 2017 14:04:26 GMT -6 derv said:

Are you asking how would you run an off hand adventure in the wilderness using the OS board? Or are you asking how someone would put together a quick introductory one shot, with either an indoor or outdoor setting?

Both Blackmoor and Lake Geneva campaigns made extensive use of the OS board in their regular games.

I actually just got a copy of OS for this exact purpose but any help on how to use it effectively would be awesome.

Have you seen this document, The Original D&D Setting? Imho it's a really useful document for understanding what games on the OS board might look like in practice. Also these OD&D Referee Tools, which I found out about elsewhere on these forums, look really useful, not least for the random castle generation (though they seem to be stuck on one name for all castles at the moment).

[harlandski]

Mar 4, 2017 18:24:57 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Gronan would be the one to ask about this, but assuming I've interpreted the anecdotes correctly then Gary at least used it simply as 'the wilderness' whenever there needed to be wilderness. If you were at some location and said, 'Alright, we go outdoors and head east', he'd pull out the OS board and start you along the west edge. Moving off an edge just looped you back around to the other side.

All of what you say is really helpful, but this point particularly so. It hadn't occurred to me that, because the castles are randomly generated, the same map could be used for different parts of the wilderness. I think I was stuck on the OS map being a place (which would also seem to be what the author of The Orignal OD&D Setting assumed), but the way you suggest Gygax used it makes a whole lot of sense, and also links in with what Gronan has already said.

[harlandski]

Mar 4, 2017 20:38:09 GMT -6 derv said:

As presented in the LBB's it does take on a somewhat boardgamy feel. It's not overly complicated. Essentially figure out your parties movement allowance and start off at one of the building hexes (towns). Use the terrain costs as given in OS and use your full movement allowance for each turn. A turn equals a day and each hex equals five miles. You can place a miniature or token on the board to represent the party.

Clear 1 point, Woods/rough 2, desert 2, mountains 3 (trails through mts. 2), rivers 3, swamps 4 (U&WA 3), trails 1, fords 1.

So, a party of five adventurers on light horses have a move allowance of 8 hexes. They could move through 8 clear hexes or 4 wood hexes or any combination that costs 8 or less points. If the party is 100 or larger in size, they incur a 1 hex penalty (resulting in a 7 hex allowance instead).

On entering the first hex check to see if the party is lost (p.18 U&WA) based on that terrain type. If lost, roll a d6 to determine what direction they will travel. Then move them in that direction. They are allowed one point of direction change off that course after the first move. Repeat this process each turn.

After they move, roll for wandering monsters based on the terrain type of the hex they ended up on (p.18 U&WA). Repeat this each turn. If a monster is indicated, roll to find out what type. Then reference p.3-4 M&T for number appearing, % chance in lair, treasure type. Check for surprise and sighting distance. Make a reaction roll if necessary (p.12 M&M) and resolve the encounter. You can also allow the party to spend a day searching the hex if the lair was not found, if you want.

A party can move six consecutive days, then must rest in place for one day. Wandering monster checks still apply on day seven.

It involves a bit of on the fly role playing and description to keep it interesting and engaging. Though, their is always the chance that the party might end up too close to a castle and end up on a quest or under a geas.

What's nice about the OS board is that it comes in three sections. So you can keep moving the first section over as a party moves along. Or they could decide to go back to the safety of their town by the end of the session. You can add attrition and fatigue rules too, if you want to encourage this.

Thanks for the step-by-step clarification. The fact it has a boardgamey feel is not a bad thing, as we sometimes play boardgames in my group as filler games when players are missing, and it does sound like it might be fun for a one-shot, though I suppose I would have to have a quest or two pre-prepared in the event of the party being geased or whatnot. Maybe a mini dungeon which I could place nearby?

[harlandski]

Mar 4, 2017 15:27:59 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I wouldn't go out into the wilderness until the PCs were sixth level or so. 3-5 PCs with henchmen, and possibly some mercenaries as well.

This is exactly the info I was looking for, thank you!

[Finarvyn]

Mar 4, 2017 21:58:24 GMT -6 harlandski said:

Mar 4, 2017 15:27:59 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I wouldn't go out into the wilderness until the PCs were sixth level or so. 3-5 PCs with henchmen, and possibly some mercenaries as well.

This is exactly the info I was looking for, thank you!

I always feel nervous contradicting Gronan because he usually is spot on when it comes to how to do things, but in this case I feel I ought to toss in a few thoughts.

(1) While newer RPGs have a system of rules for balancing encounters, OD&D never did this. If you fight something tough you either beat it, run from it, or get killed by it. As a player you need to develop a feel about when to fight and when to run, because encounters may not be balanced to the point where you are "supposed" to be able to beat it. In this sense, Gronan is exactly right because there are a lot of nasties one might encounter and it's easy to be killed by them.

(2) If you are the DM, you get to decide what the players go up against and how many of them. The rulebooks offer suggestions of type in the "wilderness encounter" section and quantity in the "number encountered" column, but you get the final say. As such, there is really no reason why you need to wait until 6th level. My campaigns usually top out around level 8 or so, and if I didn't let my players wander the wilderness until level 6 they wouldn't get to experience much of the world. I tend to populate the "civilized" wilderness areas with lower level monsters (orcs and ogres) while the "far away" wilderness regions are typically filled with the bigger nasties (wraiths, vampires, dragons) so that as they gain experience and move away from their home village they find harder and harder creatures to kill. It's kind of like a dungeon, where lower levels tend to house killer creatures, only more like a bulls-eye with the home city or town in the middle.

Anyway, that's how I do it.

[Finarvyn]

Mar 4, 2017 21:51:26 GMT -6 harlandski said:

Mar 4, 2017 18:24:57 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Gronan would be the one to ask about this, but assuming I've interpreted the anecdotes correctly then Gary at least used it simply as 'the wilderness' whenever there needed to be wilderness. If you were at some location and said, 'Alright, we go outdoors and head east', he'd pull out the OS board and start you along the west edge. Moving off an edge just looped you back around to the other side.

All of what you say is really helpful, but this point particularly so. It hadn't occurred to me that, because the castles are randomly generated, the same map could be used for different parts of the wilderness. I think I was stuck on the OS map being a place (which would also seem to be what the author of The Orignal OD&D Setting assumed), but the way you suggest Gygax used it makes a whole lot of sense, and also links in with what Gronan has already said.

Starbeard is correct on how Gary (and Dave) used the Outdoor Survival map most of the time. (For Dave it was the "Southland" area to the south of the main Blackmoor map.)

I've had many generic and/or geomorphic maps over the years that may be used over and over. A generic dungeon map may be rotated 90 degrees and look totally new to the mappers, then filled with different monsters. The OS map filled exactly this role in many of my campaigns in the 1970's so that it might not be quite as simple as starting from the west edge because I could rotate the map and then start from an edge I called "west" in order to have a bit more variety in terrain.

I never got to play in a campaign where Dave or Gary used the OS map, so I don't know if they used the rotate trick or not. I do know that it was their "generic wilderness" map for many game sessions.

[magremore]

The fact it has a boardgamey feel is not a bad thing, as we sometimes play boardgames in my group as filler games when players are missing, and it does sound like it might be fun for a one-shot, though I suppose I would have to have a quest or two pre-prepared in the event of the party being geased or whatnot. 

harlandski, You might be interested in Delta’s “Outdoor Spoliation” game reports. He doesn’t use tags on his blog, so searching is about the best way to try and find the reports, but they're good reads.

[derv]

I would echo Finarvyn 's sentiment above. I think Michael has answered your question well with the intention of playing btb. Yet, if you do that with new players simply to allow them the wilderness experience, I think you will be missing half the experience of low level play and the challenge of getting to 6th or 8th level.

I'm a bit like Finarvyn. I enjoy the low level game and it's challenges. I do not run many games past 6th lervel or so. So, in my case, I use the outdoor wandering monster tables as a template and create my own. There is a footnote at the bottom of the M&T Monster Tables on p.4 that says "*Referee's option: increase or decrease according to party concerned" in regard to # appearing.

It takes a little bit of experience to get a feel for what will be challenging and where a party is better off running away. Even a small band of kobolds can sometimes cause a TPK though. You have to be comfortable with that possibility. That's what makes the game a challenge and not just an exercise in story telling.

[tetramorph]

This thread has been really helpful for me.

I love Wayne Rossi's Original Campaign Setting reflections and they have helped me a lot. And, although I know it is debatable, I have come, through experience, to find that there is a deference between "off hand adventures" and the "referee's map."

Inspired by Rossi, I started a public campaign of simply exploring the OS board. Much good has come from it. We now have four retired high level characters and one final big show down with a wilderness level badddie, a vampire.

But it was hard to run. Everything being random took ages to role up and everything seemed disconnected, disjointed. Believe me when I say that I am no story gamer. I am in no way looking for a "story arc." Just the kind of basic coherence that makes the game interesting.

This thread helps a lot. I am going to make a "referee's map" and build from there with " off hand adventures " on the OS board only. That way I know my world and I can build in my own gonzo style coherence from the start.

One question: I know someone on these boards talks about not using hexes, but just using scale and miles. Who was that? Has that worked well for others?

Fight on!

[Deleted]

If you're the referee, yes, you can decide to modify the encounter size. Gary, for his game, didn't. So Fin's right, it's a your mileage may thingummy situation.

Using the OS map, Gary usually pointed to one of the castles or towns and said "this is Greyhawk" and we went from there. If went, say, North, to the edge of the map and kept going, we'd come on the south edge of the "next" OS board.

I used this later on in my campaign; I used staggered squares instead of hexes for the map, and each square was an OS board, but around major cities and other civilized areas I had a "civilized territory" map.

[tetramorph]

Mar 5, 2017 16:04:57 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I used this later on in my campaign; I used staggered squares instead of hexes for the map, and each square was an OS board, but around major cities and other civilized areas I had a "civilized territory" map.

Is this still the case in your campaign today?

[Deleted]

Yes.

[derv]

Mar 5, 2017 16:04:57 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I used this later on in my campaign; I used staggered squares instead of hexes for the map, and each square was an OS board, but around major cities and other civilized areas I had a "civilized territory" map.

Tell us a little about your civilized territory map. How was it different? How big of an area did it represent? What could a person expect to encounter there?

[Finarvyn]

Mar 5, 2017 12:36:48 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

One question: I know someone on these boards talks about not using hexes, but just using scale and miles. Who was that? Has that worked well for others?

Not sure who you are talking about here. I've used hexes and not-hexes, both with a lot of success. I happen to like the look of hexes (tracing back to my wargame days) but many of my campaign maps are drawn without. I often measure daily travel distances in terms of dice lengths.

Another trick (which I think I got from the Forgotten Realms boxed set) is to make a hex transparency page like you would use on an overhead projector. Then you can place this plastic sheet on top of a non-hex map and that gives you hexes to count.

Either way, I tend not to stress about exact measurements. Everything becomes "number of days travel" instead of number of miles away. (Sort of like the traffic reports I hear on the radio -- 355 to the loop is 40 minutes -- that kind of thing.)

[harlandski]

Thank you Finarvyn and derv for your input. I generally agree with you that it's better to work through the low levels, and I can see how you can adjust things accordingly. My first period of roleplaying was from about 1990-1992, playing AD&D 2e almost every night after school with the most frequent player getting to the heady heights of 9th level! If I can persuade my group to try out OD&D wholescale then we will certainly start at 1st level and get the experience of achievement that advancement brings.

However, if I can't persuade them, I'm quite tempted by magremore 's suggestion (backed up by @gronanofsimmerya 's advice) to do a one shot with them "by the book", and have them start at a higher level. When I persuaded my group to play Holmes Basic, it ended up in a TPK, precisely because they didn't expect to encounter something way more powerful than themselves, and so didn't have the sense about when to run. So I think it would be good to give them slightly more powerful experience, though if they come across a castle guarded by dragons or balrogs, running will probably be a good idea anyway! The "Outdoor Spoilation" games look like a blast for a one shot, and might at least give my gaming group a more positive feeling about older forms of D&D.