"Old Castle Greyhawk"

[foxroe]

As far as I know, the first published description of the original Castle Greyhawk appeared in Europa magazine (issue 6-8, April '75):

Before the rules for D&D were published, Old Castle Greyhawk was 13 levels deep. The first level was a simple maze of rooms and corridors, for none of the participants had ever played such a game before. The second level had two unusual items, a Nixie pool and a fountain of snakes. The third featured a torture chamber and many small cells and prison rooms. The fourth was a level of crypts and undead. The fifth was centered around a strange font of black fire and Gargoyles. The sixth was a repeating maze with dozens of wild hogs (3 dice) in inconvenient spots, naturally backed up by appropriate numbers of Wereboars. The seventh was centered around a circular labyrinth and a street of masses of Ogres. The eighth through tenth levels were caves and caverns featuring Trolls, giant insects, and a transporter nexus with an evil wizard (with a number of tough associates) guarding it. The eleventh level was the home of the most powerful Wizard in the castle. He had Balrogs as servants. The remainder of the level was populated by Martian White Apes, except the sub-passage system underneath the corridors which was full of poisonous critters with no treasure. Level twelve was filled with Dragons. The bottom level, number thirteen, contained an inescapable slide which took the players “clear through to China”, from whence they had to return via “Outdoor Adventure”. It was quite possible to journey downward to the bottom level by an insidious series of slanting passages which began on the second level, but the likelihood of following such a route unknowingly didn’t become too great until the seventh or eighth level. Of the dozen or so who played on a regular basis, four made the lowest level and took the trip: Rob Kuntz, now a co-referee in the campaign went along; and three of his friends managed to trace part of his route and blunder along the rest, so they followed him quickly to the Land of China. Side levels included a barracks with Orcs, Hobgoblins, and Gnolls continually warring with each other, a museum, a huge arena, an underground lake, a Giant’s home, and a garden of fungi.

Questions for the Greyhawk erudite among us:
- Did the "upper works" consist of three towers as it is traditionally portrayed now, or was it some other structure?
- Was the Wizard on level 11 Zagig, or someone else? An apprentice?

[scottenkainen]

"Bodenburg Castle was used as the original model for the ruined upper works of Greyhawk Castle. Gygax had one in his basement at 330 Center Street" - caption for historical display by Paul Stormberg.

See zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2015/03/visualizing-castle-greyhawk.html

It *is* possible that the powerful wizard was Zagig, since no characters are referred to by name in the long description.

[stormberg]

Howdy,

Mar 1, 2017 20:11:49 GMT -6 foxroe said:

- Did the "upper works" consist of three towers as it is traditionally portrayed now, or was it some other structure?

It varied of course from one to eight towers but ultimately (c. 1979) it was four "corner" towers and one central tower. The early adventurers blew past the upper ruins eager to get to the mysteries beneath and Gary only went back later to detail them further.

The original ruins were an elongated version Bodenburg Castle as Scott points out. This of course only has one central tower, a gatehouse, bartizan, and building surmounted walls (which might have 1 or 2 towers incorporated amidst buildings).

Mar 1, 2017 20:11:49 GMT -6 foxroe said:

- Was the Wizard on level 11 Zagig, or someone else? An apprentice?

Someone else.

Zagyg only appears in one place.


Futures Bright,

Paul

[Zenopus]

Mar 1, 2017 20:11:49 GMT -6 foxroe said:

As far as I know, the first published description of the original Castle Greyhawk appeared in Europa magazine (issue 6-8, April '75):

There was an earlier, briefer description in Vol 3 of OD&D:

"Greyhawk Castle", for example, has over a dozen levels in succession downwards, more than that number branching from these, and not less than two new levels under construction at any given time. These levels contain such things as a museum from another age, an underground lake, a series of caverns filled with giant fungi, a bowling alley for 20' high Giants, an arena of evil, crypts, and so on.

[foxroe]

Scott - Great! You answered my next question: Were the upper works modeled after a real castle, as Castle Blackmoor was modeled after Castle Branzoll in Italy(Austria?) Thanks for the link!

Paul - Thanks for the info! When you say "Zagyg only appears in one place", I assume you are referring to the 13th level?

Z - Thanks! I had forgotten about that reference.

[foxroe]

Did Zagyg/Zagig ever directly interact with the player characters during the course of exploring the Castle, or was it just if they "reached the end" as Rob and friends had?

Was the Mad Wizard actually just eccentric (possibly implying a "good" tendency to alignment), or was he rather evil in disposition?

[foxroe]

Interesting. Started digging into the link to Zenopus' blog above and found out some new things (well, new to me at least).

The "Siege of Bodenburg" wargame was a major influence on Gary. He refers to it as "Castle Bodenstedt" (after the author - from an interview at Gamebanshee), but perhaps there is a little more to that.

The Elastolin/Hausser castle model used in the Siege was catalog number 9732. Nowhere can I find an original description of the product. As far as I can tell, it was simply referred to as "Burg" (castle). The real Bodenburg Castle looks nothing like the model. Bodenburg is a more modern "romantic" manor-style castle, whereas the Elastolin model is that of an older, early Medieval castle. Does anyone happen to know if this model was based on a real castle? The SoB website mentions that all of Elastolin's castles were modeled after German castles.

I also came across a couple of remarks that the moathouse in T1 was modeled after this kit, but there was actually another castle made by Elastolin that looked closer to the moathouse, catalog number 9747.

[foxroe]

Nice write-up over at the Collector's Trove:

thecollectorstrove.com/gc-iv-bodenburg/

[scottenkainen]

Mar 2, 2017 23:00:02 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Did Zagyg/Zagig ever directly interact with the player characters during the course of exploring the Castle, or was it just if they "reached the end" as Rob and friends had?

Was the Mad Wizard actually just eccentric (possibly implying a "good" tendency to alignment), or was he rather evil in disposition?

There are no other published anecdotes about Zagig being encountered by PCs, other than waving to them while they slid to China.

There could be a good bit of subjectivity in that second question. If you build a huge castle dungeon and stock it with monsters, and then fill it with treasure to lure people in to get killed there, at what point is that past eccentric and just plain (lower case) evil?

[grodog]

Mar 2, 2017 22:55:18 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Scott - Great! You answered my next question: Were the upper works modeled after a real castle, as Castle Blackmoor was modeled after Castle Branzoll in Italy(Austria?) Thanks for the link!

Paul - Thanks for the info! When you say "Zagyg only appears in one place", I assume you are referring to the 13th level?

Z - Thanks! I had forgotten about that reference.

Just after the Europa article was published, Gary wrote this description of the Castle in "The Magician's Ring":

Those who have explored the countryside between the bustling city of Greyhawk and the castle ruins of the same name which lie on the hill not a league to the east of the city will testify to the fact that there are a number of strange tunnels and wells about. Wise folks avoid them, for they know that these are but entrances to the fiendish maze of dungeons, pits, labyrinths, crypts, catacombs, and caverns which honeycomb the hill and the rock far beneath it. There are those, however, who eagerly seek these ways, for it is likewise well-known that incalculable treasure also rests within these twisting mazes...

More quotes and bits of lore are on my pages @ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html and in Joe Bloch's Greyhawk Lore document @ docs.google.com/open?id=0B_Cma19yAxHJQlBiMXUxa0Q3bDg and there's some pretty extensive discussion of the Castle levels on DF and K&K with links to/from some other blogs (including Zach's Zenopus Archives and Timrod's IIRC).

Mar 3, 2017 1:25:03 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Nice write-up over at the Collector's Trove:

thecollectorstrove.com/gc-iv-bodenburg/

That was a fun game to play, and I'd forgotten that Paul photographed it! Jason Azze and I defended the castle, and IIRC we lost; I'm in the tye dye.

Henry Bodenstedt's son used to have a web page where you could download a PDF of the rules for the Siege of Bodenburg. I'll have to see if I can find a link again---all I can find right now is this: www.thortrains.net/armymen/bodebok1.html

Allan.

[foxroe]

Mar 3, 2017 8:26:21 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

There could be a good bit of subjectivity in that second question. If you build a huge castle dungeon and stock it with monsters, and then fill it with treasure to lure people in to get killed there, at what point is that past eccentric and just plain (lower case) evil?

Very true! It seems that Zagig is portrayed (in product at least) as just plain zany, but the impression I've always formed is that he was thoroughly and chaotically evil. When you look at him through that lens, Old Castle Greyhawk becomes a very dark and unforgiving place...

[foxroe]

Mar 3, 2017 9:28:56 GMT -6 grodog said:

Just after the Europa article was published, Gary wrote this description of the Castle in "The Magician's Ring":

Those who have explored the countryside between the bustling city of Greyhawk and the castle ruins of the same name which lie on the hill not a league to the east of the city will testify to the fact that there are a number of strange tunnels and wells about. Wise folks avoid them, for they know that these are but entrances to the fiendish maze of dungeons, pits, labyrinths, crypts, catacombs, and caverns which honeycomb the hill and the rock far beneath it. There are those, however, who eagerly seek these ways, for it is likewise well-known that incalculable treasure also rests within these twisting mazes...

More quotes and bits of lore are on my pages @ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle.html and in Joe Bloch's Greyhawk Lore document @ docs.google.com/open?id=0B_Cma19yAxHJQlBiMXUxa0Q3bDg and there's some pretty extensive discussion of the Castle levels on DF and K&K with links to/from some other blogs (including Zach's Zenopus Archives and Timrod's IIRC).

As always Allan, you are the man!

I've trawled your site many a time (it's in my favorites list); always something cool to find there.

Mar 3, 2017 1:25:03 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Nice write-up over at the Collector's Trove:

thecollectorstrove.com/gc-iv-bodenburg/

That was a fun game to play, and I'd forgotten that Paul photographed it! Jason Azze and I defended the castle, and IIRC we lost; I'm in the tye dye.

Hah! Didn't realize that was you!

Henry Bodenstedt's son used to have a web page where you could download a PDF of the rules for the Siege of Bodenburg. I'll have to see if I can find a link again---all I can find right now is this: www.thortrains.net/armymen/bodebok1.html

Yeah, I've checked out that site. The only SoB rules I can find so far are original prints (presumably from Henry) on eBay and the like.

[foxroe]

Something that always bugged me: In the description, the Castle is about a league east of the city, but in all published material, it's well to the west. It doesn't make much sense to me.

[scottenkainen]

Mar 3, 2017 10:15:17 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Something that always bugged me: In these description, the Castle is about a league east of the city, but in all published material, it's well to the west. It doesn't make much sense to me.

It's a magic castle; have it able to move around.

[scottyg]

In the published material, lots of little clues and taunts wee left around, but no real interaction for the dungeon explorers, but According to Luke, and this does match Zagyg's write up, Zagyg would occasionally interact with his followers and judge them. At one point Zagyg took an artifact off of Melf, who converted to Zagyg, because he didn't think he was acting Chaotic enough, so Melf went back to following Celestian.

[foxroe]

Mar 3, 2017 12:46:19 GMT -6 scottyg said:

In the published material, lots of little clues and taunts wee left around, but no real interaction for the dungeon explorers, but According to Luke, and this does match Zagyg's write up, Zagyg would occasionally interact with his followers and judge them. At one point Zagyg took an artifact off of Melf, who converted to Zagyg, because he didn't think he was acting Chaotic enough, so Melf went back to following Celestian.

Scott - Which Zagyg write-up would you be referring to?

From your comment, the implication was that Zagyg was indeed a demi-god in Gary's early campaign (as in later publications), and not just a powerful wizard. Is that true?

[foxroe]

I apologize for all of the nit-picky questions - "straining at gnats" and all that. I'm just trying to build a picture of early Greyhawk (pre-Folio) in my mind. I'd like to start a Greyhawk campaign for my group, but I want it to be based on a solid foundation of original concepts and lore. This way, I could let my Greyhawk organically evolve from there in true sand-box fashion, building up into something wholly unlike it did in publication.

Well, we can dream at least.

[scottyg]

Mar 3, 2017 23:45:26 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Mar 3, 2017 12:46:19 GMT -6 scottyg said:

In the published material, lots of little clues and taunts wee left around, but no real interaction for the dungeon explorers, but According to Luke, and this does match Zagyg's write up, Zagyg would occasionally interact with his followers and judge them. At one point Zagyg took an artifact off of Melf, who converted to Zagyg, because he didn't think he was acting Chaotic enough, so Melf went back to following Celestian.

Scott - Which Zagyg write-up would you be referring to?

From your comment, the implication was that Zagyg was indeed a demi-god in Gary's early campaign (as in later publications), and not just a powerful wizard. Is that true?

The write up in the box set, and I assume the Dragon article too.
Yes, Zagyg was a god in the early campaign.

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2017 9:57:55 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Mar 3, 2017 8:26:21 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

There could be a good bit of subjectivity in that second question. If you build a huge castle dungeon and stock it with monsters, and then fill it with treasure to lure people in to get killed there, at what point is that past eccentric and just plain (lower case) evil?

Very true! It seems that Zagig is portrayed (in product at least) as just plain zany, but the impression I've always formed is that he was thoroughly and chaotically evil. When you look at him through that lens, Old Castle Greyhawk becomes a very dark and unforgiving place...

It WAS a dark and unforgiving place. There were plenty of characters killed. Sometimes simply getting out with your hide was s reward.

We were all wargamers, we expected to take casualties.

[foxroe]

I said:

Yeah, I've checked out that site. The only SoB rules I can find so far are original prints (presumably from Henry) on eBay and the like.

However, it occurs to me that the original rules are scanned and available in GIF format on the thortrains.net site, so downloading them and converting to PDF or similar is trivial.

Also of note, if you look carefully at the photo of the castle on page 7, it appears to be lifted from an ad or catalog page. The number "9733" appears* and in small letters it says "The Bodenburg". So, perhaps there existed another Bodenburg castle in Germany other than this one? It was not uncommon for rulers and landed nobles to tear down and rebuild over existing fortifications, so maybe...

*(Edit: I noticed it's also listed under equipment on page 1 as "Elastolin 9733")

[foxroe]

Did some more digging for the "9733" castle and I came across a post in response to our very own chicagowiz inquiring about an old Elastolin castle (different catalog number) he had acquired:

deerbe.com/unt/57752-elastolin_ritterburg_art___nr___9733_tiefziehfolie_burg_von_1973.html

Original post here. (EDIT: and the related ODD74 post is here)

Still no idea what real-life castle the "Bodenburg" was, but as the poster in the thread above suggested, perhaps they were just made up castles in the German Medieval style.

[foxroe]

Found a low quality scan of the 1973 Elastolin catalog here.

Can't make anything out in the text. Is anyone perchance a member of the Toy Soldier Gallery who has access to the high resolution scan?

[foxroe]

The only difference between catalog numbers 9732 and 9733 looks like the size of the central tower - 9732 appears to have an extension added to the top of the tower to increase its height.

[stormberg]

Howdy,

Mar 6, 2017 5:05:36 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Still no idea what real-life castle the "Bodenburg" was, but as the poster in the thread above suggested, perhaps they were just made up castles in the German Medieval style.

There is no "real life" castle named "Bodenburg" although the castle itself might be based on one. Bodenburg was named after Henry Bodenstedt and when it was originally published it was misspelled Bodenberg. At the time Henry was the distributor for Strategy & Tactics in the US and the publisher, Chris Wagner, was in Japan on active duty for the Air Force.

Henry was so upset that he refused to distribute the magazine unless it was corrected and Wagner was over a barrel. Eventually they worked it out with a retraction and apology.

If the model is based on a castle, it might be named in one of the better catalogs. However, it might be as likely that it is based on some story of Prince Valiant or Karl May fiction - the basis for the Elastolin figures. I'll have a look.


Futures Bright,

Paul
The Collector's Trove
www.thecollectorstrove.com

[foxroe]

Mar 12, 2017 18:14:41 GMT -6 stormberg said:

Howdy,

Mar 6, 2017 5:05:36 GMT -6 foxroe said:

Still no idea what real-life castle the "Bodenburg" was, but as the poster in the thread above suggested, perhaps they were just made up castles in the German Medieval style.

There is no "real life" castle named "Bodenburg" although the castle itself might be based on one. Bodenburg was named after Henry Bodenstedt and when it was originally published it was misspelled Bodenberg. At the time Henry was the distributor for Strategy & Tactics in the US and the publisher, Chris Wagner, was in Japan on active duty for the Air Force.

Henry was so upset that he refused to distribute the magazine unless it was corrected and Wagner was over a barrel. Eventually they worked it out with a retraction and apology.

If the model is based on a castle, it might be named in one of the better catalogs. However, it might be as likely that it is based on some story of Prince Valiant or Karl May fiction - the basis for the Elastolin figures. I'll have a look.


Futures Bright,

Paul
The Collector's Trove
www.thecollectorstrove.com

Thanks, Paul! That's interesting - I had no idea there was "controversy" surrounding SoB! That explains why Gary referred to it as "Bodenstedt" instead of "Bodenburg"; I thought he was just giving a nod to Henry.

[Zenopus]

In this post, I take a look at Gary's dungeon level for the Hall of Many Panes (2005) and how it uses many of his earliest dungeon design elements from Castle Greyhawk and other designs of the 70s:

zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2017/12/gygaxs-dungeon-level-from-hall-of-many.html

[murquhart72]

There are some good pictures here:
www.thortrains.net/armymen/wargame/elascast1.html