Marriage in a Medieval Wargame Campaign

[tetramorph]

I've been playing in one of makofan's Pendragon campaigns. You know, marriage actually has a mechanic in that game!

Marriage is a really important part of the medieval world, both real and fantasy! But the way I see D&D played it seems like a pretty singles-only kind of deal.

Marriage was key for political alliances, social status, maintenance of one's lineage and, ultimately, tribe or people-group.

What do you guys think? Is there some kind of a SIMPLE mechanic or resolution that might meld in well with the barony rules? Make it a part of "prospecting?" Relate it to charisma? If so, what in-game benefits would it give to our burgeoning baron?

(Really, this should be dropped within some other, broader, un-addressed categories: the way an economy of cyclical gift-exchange and a social-code of honor relate to game-play. I mean, the guys I play with act like they are completely free of any societal ties. That doesn't seem authentically medieval, even in fantasy. But that conversation, I suppose, should be a different thread.)

[Porphyre]

If marriage is a political alliance, Charisma is probably out: the betrothed could well meet for the first time the very day before marriage.
The Charisma of your embassador would probably be more relevant!

[Deleted]

What kind of in game benefits?

"Marriage was key for political alliances, social status, maintenance of one's lineage"...

Answered your own question, son.

[tetramorph]

Sept 21, 2016 11:46:47 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

What kind of in game benefits?

"Marriage was key for political alliances, social status, maintenance of one's lineage"...

Answered your own question, son.

Sure. So you just think it can all be resolved through role-play and there is simply no need for mechanics.

That sure aligns with my philosophy (and why I am dedicated to 0e) "make no mechanics for that which can be resolved through role-play."

I suppose I was trying to think about a few mechanical things. Like the way in which prospecting and surveying can lead to greater population and tax yields, etc. Something like that?

[Deleted]

Wouldn't bother. Once a PC gets some wealth and power, he or she will become a marriage prospect. As inevitable as flies being drawn to offal.

[tetramorph]

@gronanofsimmerya, for sure. I read you.

Okay, so I guess what I am driving at is kind of like how Tony Bath has this whole playing card system for determining NPC relationships including spouses -- are they alive, dead, cheating, faithful, children, how many, etc.

It is totally rad.

I think what I am thinking of is not a mechanic that has anything to do with the players, but a table or flow chart to aid me, as the ref, in setting up PCs with interesting social bonds and situations.

So something like "when they reach X level" or "when they have a barony" then "roll here, use a deck of cards there, to determine if a local king proposes marriage to their daughter," whatever.

Just one of those things that helps me as a referee keep it 1.) a cool simulation of a medieval fantasy world, 2.) reminds me and 3.) gives the PCs cool and crazy situations they need to resolve.

Does that do anything for you?

[Scott Anderson]

I'm glad there are people who are made happy by this mechanic. But. I cannot imagine attaching a game mechanic to marriage! The RP and logistical aspects should be well enough to sim it IMO

Again, though, it's good to see people who like it!

[Deleted]

Okay, I see what you're saying. I TOTALLY urge you to create a Tony Bath style mechanic for this.

[tetramorph]

Sept 21, 2016 17:39:11 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

I'm glad there are people who are made happy by this mechanic. But. I cannot imagine attaching a game mechanic to marriage! The RP and logistical aspects should be well enough to sim it IMO

Again, though, it's good to see people who like it!

Scott, Tony Bath's deck of card mechanic is for designing NPCs.

I don't know of anyone who has applied a parallel to PCs. That's what I'm trying to brainstorm here.

[Scott Anderson]

Gosh

I know Pathfinder has a mechanic for marriage, I should not presume

[jmccann]

I think a marriage subsystem using cards and maybe a couple of six-siders should be easily "bolted" on to Bath's card generation system. I'd be interested in seeing that.

[xerxez]

One might formulate an equation taking into account player charisma, object of suitor affection charisma, g.p. value of pc vs. g.p. value of beloved, time and money spent trying to woo and various astrological factors. dice each week, have a table which regulates the beloved's reaction, anywhere from hesitancy to unrestrained ardour to permanent refusal.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2016 23:04:31 GMT -6 xerxez said:

One might formulate an equation taking into account player charisma, object of suitor affection charisma, g.p. value of pc vs. g.p. value of beloved, time and money spent trying to woo and various astrological factors. dice each week, have a table which regulates the beloved's reaction, anywhere from hesitancy to unrestrained ardour to permanent refusal.

That assumes a very romantic view of marriage in the middle ages which was found only in the fables of courtly love. I think it would be FAR more interesting and FAR more challenging to set up marriage as jockeying for political and economic advantage, like most noble marriages were.

"You're going to marry Princess Lucky and you're going to like it!"

[idrahil]

While marriage as a political and economic tool for players at high levels is pretty cool (and accurate), I think that "true love" can be used in any system as a monkey wrench. For instance, you're setting up an arranged marriage using the cards or % rolls when suddenly, you draw the true love card / roll.

A favored retainer falls in love with your betrothed and they elope. Does war break out? Do you hunt down your former friend? Let them be?

I have to admit that I cringed when I saw this thread title...but this is actually a pretty neat idea.

[tkdco2]

Sept 26, 2016 23:07:07 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Sept 26, 2016 23:04:31 GMT -6 xerxez said:

One might formulate an equation taking into account player charisma, object of suitor affection charisma, g.p. value of pc vs. g.p. value of beloved, time and money spent trying to woo and various astrological factors. dice each week, have a table which regulates the beloved's reaction, anywhere from hesitancy to unrestrained ardour to permanent refusal.

That assumes a very romantic view of marriage in the middle ages which was found only in the fables of courtly love. I think it would be FAR more interesting and FAR more challenging to set up marriage as jockeying for political and economic advantage, like most noble marriages were.

"You're going to marry Princess Lucky and you're going to like it!"

Does she have huge tracts of land?

From a roleplaying or wargame perspective, it makes sense. A high-level fighter who suddenly builds a castle and assumes a noble title may well face hostility from the existing nobility. He will need some way to make his title legitimate in the eyes of the other nobles.

Also, many nobles were impoverished and/or had many enemies. Making a new ally would be preferable to making a new enemy. And a powerful and rich ally would help solve those problems. Keep in mind the noble's enemies would probably now become the PC's enemies as well.

[Porphyre]

Just off the top of my head:
-determine a basic chance of succes based on the PC level added to (or multiplied by) the number of hexes he controls (for instance, a 10th level baron controlling 3 hexes could have a basic chances of succes of 30%)
-determine a basic investment in presents-values dependant of the status of teh potential ally, as per the spell research rules: for instance, for the daughter of a 4-hexes -ruling countthe basic present is 8,000 GP.

Each amount spend in presents to the potential bethroted adds a % equal to basic chances.

So, a 10th level lord, with a 3-hexes dominion sends an ambassy to his 4 hexes-ruling neighbour asking for his daughter. The embassador travels with 16,000 GP worth of presents and representational costs.
His basic chances are 30%, and the 16,000 GP adds 2 times the basic chances , so the chances are 90%.

The numbers might need adjustement, I didn't really look too much into the probabilities, but you catch my idea.
Maybe we need to put the relative difference in power in consideration.

[tetramorph]

tkdco2, I dig your thinking.

What if FM must marry in order to gain the title of the Lord of a Barony? He is just not going to be considered a Lord by peers/superiors if he is not linked into the social network.

Make marriage or hostages (in the medieval sense) requisite of any bond of alliance.

Then, Porphyre, I dig your plan. How about:

Lvl, area controlled and, if you use it, social level of proposer and the Lord whose daughter is proposed to are compared. Roll as % chance.

I like the gp idea. I think though in my campaign, for simplicity's sake, I would just have dowry and bride price cancel each other (as they often do in gift-economy societies).

Then, idrahil, I also dig your idea. How about this:

Upon successful arrangement, draw from a deck of cards:

Hearts = character and wife are comparable and come to love one another
Clubs = Betrothed falls in love with another and elopes
Diamonds = Betrothed maintains a secret lover
Spades = character does not like the new wife very much and finds another who is willing to be a lover (will character be faithful? etc.)

[Deleted]

Here's a fun fact. Bachelor comes from Latin "bas chevalier" - "low knight" or "base knight." A knight bachelor is a knight with no land, and is the lowest order of knighthood.

[foxroe]

I'd keep it simple and seat-of-the-pants. If the player is seeking marriage, just use the NPC reaction table (with suitable modifiers for gifts, social status, etc.). If the player is of name level, and perhaps has something to offer a would-be suitor (land, magic, status, etc.), treat 1 or 2 in 6 wilderness/castle/city encounters with Men as an appropriate offer or proposal. Heck, you wouldn't even need to write that down as an "official" house rule!

[tetramorph]

Nov 6, 2016 22:02:20 GMT -6 foxroe said:

I'd keep it simple and seat-of-the-pants. If the player is seeking marriage, just use the NPC reaction table (with suitable modifiers for gifts, social status, etc.). If the player is of name level, and perhaps has something to offer a would-be suitor (land, magic, status, etc.), treat 1 or 2 in 6 wilderness/castle/city encounters with Men as an appropriate offer or proposal. Heck, you wouldn't even need to write that down as an "official" house rule! ;)

Write on, man. This is good.

I suppose I just needed the gentle "house rules" reminder to self: encounters may involve proposals! Especially diplomatic ones.

I over complicate.

Then someone comes along and reminds me the glories of "rules lite."

Thanks.

[foxroe]

Nov 7, 2016 16:12:19 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Thanks.

Hey, glad you found it useful! This is a good thread; it's given me some great ideas - and that's what I love about this place!

[Deleted]

I have to include these very politically incorrect rules from Bushido ...

The Gamesmaster should roll on the Initial Attitude Table to determine the overall nature of the Wife.

-A Disastrous result indicates a Shameful Wife, who will waste her husband’s money and probably disgrace him with love affairs. Add
30 to the Intensity die roll, and subtract 50 from die rolls for Conception, described in section 2073.4.

-A less-than-Neutral result indicates a Bad Wife, a woman who is just not cut out for this marriage and will make both herself and her
husband unhappy about it. Add 10 to her Intensity roll and subtract 20 from her Conception die rolls.

-A Neutral result indicates an Average wife: good manager, enjoyable companion, dedicated mother. She makes all rolls at base
value.

-A better-than-Neutral result indicates a Good Wife, loving and loyal, thrifty and fertile. Subtract 10 from her Intensity die roll, add 15
to her Conception rolls, and increase her husband’s Group Status by 5.

-An Excellent result indicates an Excellent Wife. -30 on Intensity roll, +20 to Conception and +10 to husband’s Group Status. In
addition, an Excellent Wife is very wise, and her husband darn well knows it. In any given adventure, he may go to her, place the facts
before her, and take her advice (ie. he receives a hint from the Gamesmaster as to the nature of the adventure). He may also use
her advice once per month to add 10 to the husband’s Status for a given influence attempt.

[simrion]

Do you really need a mechanic for this? If DM fiat is an assumed primary aspect of the rules it is also assumed the Players accept this when they agree to play. Seems to me this is just one more opportunity for the DM to make a character's life more "interesting."

[Deleted]

Dec 5, 2016 4:54:26 GMT -6 simrion said:

Do you really need a mechanic for this? If DM fiat is an assumed primary aspect of the rules it is also assumed the Players accept this when they agree to play. Seems to me this is just one more opportunity for the DM to make a character's life more "interesting."

A simple, abstract marriage system would be helpful in the case where you have several PCs doing this. You could just role-play out the entire process but that would only be interesting for the one PC involved. Alternately, you could run solo sessions but many DMs don't have the time to do that.

[simrion]

Dec 5, 2016 12:14:14 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Dec 5, 2016 4:54:26 GMT -6 simrion said:

Do you really need a mechanic for this? If DM fiat is an assumed primary aspect of the rules it is also assumed the Players accept this when they agree to play. Seems to me this is just one more opportunity for the DM to make a character's life more "interesting."

A simple, abstract marriage system would be helpful in the case where you have several PCs doing this. You could just role-play out the entire process but that would only be interesting for the one PC involved. Alternately, you could run solo sessions but many DMs don't have the time to do that.

Hmmmm.wonder if there's a "nugget" buried in the Judges Guild Ready Ref Sheets.