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Post by increment on Sept 5, 2016 16:36:28 GMT -6
What you repudiated was the relevance of any of Korns previous and post 1966 rules elaboration/revisions and there possible influence, whether direct or indirect, on the larger hobby, such as you're forwarding with Reiswitz and Totten on Korns. I don't want to belabor the point, as I can tell you feel piled upon here - and ultimately the last thing I want to do is put you down for turning the spotlight on Korns, who deserves more attention than he gets. But just quickly, I think the documentary evidence of the period shows that while MWIM was quite well known and was name-checked by key people in the development of RPGs, the earlier and later rules were both unknown in the relevant communities. If you want, I can go into that in much greater detail; the difference is dramatic enough that, as I said above, I feel safe saying that the 1966 rules are the relevant ones. |
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Post by derv on Sept 5, 2016 18:58:33 GMT -6
I hope that I have not given you and others the impression that I think things happen in a bubble, that Korns developed his rules out of thin air without any outside influences. I do understand that he was a wargamer.
I've re-read all of my comments in this thread and most of them, counter to my original intent, have been spent responding to historical claims about the game instead of questions about how to actually play the game. In fact, near zero questions or input have been offered in this regard. It may be that the historical context is more interesting to people then the game itself. I can't say the subject doesn't interest me too. Surely my efforts on the previous page are not an entire waste, though?
So Jon, of course you should put forth any thing that you feel is important to express and useful to others understanding regarding Korns place in history. I'm personally more interested in hearing any documented reviews, play reports, and conversations with Korns that took place in those zines. I wouldn't mind hearing how Scruby's rules resemble Korns, as well.
Just as I am under no false impressions that Korns developed all his ideas out of thin air, I am also not of the opinion that his later edition was necessarily of its own volition. It seems that there must have been a need that Korns was responding to, possibly outside pressures to convert his formula's to a more easily used table format. It also seems unlikely that this just suddenly took place 6 years later in 1972.
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Post by derv on Sept 25, 2016 11:27:58 GMT -6
It'll be left to those reading this thread to grasp the connections that are being proposed between Korns and others. One should recognize that what we sometimes accept as common knowledge today, was not necessarily so 50 years ago. Those not familiar with the wargaming hobby and it's history may find this difficult to appreciate. There are distinctions to be made between professional and hobby war gamers. There are also distinctions to be made between theorists/analysts and designers/publishers. Sure the lines sometimes blurred, but this does not make for a direct path from one to the other. Those sort of conclusions are speculative generalities. In light of this, we should be aware of the frequent claims that the wargaming hobby was a small tight knit bunch during the early days. As if to suggest that what one person knew and adopted was known and adopted by the whole. If you are to accept this as true, one should acknowledge that this condition did not change in the 70's. Remember, all of the original players were wargamers, first. I see a real and relevant connection between Scruby and Korns, but not one that correlates to Korns game mechanics. It is still not apparent to me how Korns and Scruby's game are similar, beyond the fact that Scruby named one of his favorite lead figures and wrote a story about him in TTT. There is this connection that Korns read TTT. Maybe others can judge better then myself. The story of Pierre la Duc is available for anyone to read at TableTopTalk.com. It is a different thing to individualize a favored figure from what Korns did. If La Duc died in Scruby's game, the game carried on. He was simply another figure on the table. In Korns game, if your figure is KIA, the game is over. You can no longer see nor hear nor give orders. You literally experience the game as that figure. I can only point you to the 1966 rules description of play between player and judge for clarity on this fine point of difference. Notice the use of personal pronouns, something lacking in the La Duc stories. There are other telling things in Korns play descriptions that are not explicit in the 1966 rules, like individual hit locations as an example. His one rule was "simulate reality". A more important connection between Korns and Scruby is that they both resided in CA. Scruby lived in Visalia, CA until 1973. Korns lived in Mountain View, CA until he withdrew from the hobby after 1972. What happened to Michael Korns? Does he still live? If I was a Historian insisting on knowing and establishing the facts, I'd want to know. Interestingly we do know that some of his original players are still around. I've already mentioned Ned Zuparko, who was included in Curry's book. There are others. CA resident Richard Burnett can be found in various forums posting about Korns game as late as 2015. Of course, we know of Scruby's connection with Gygax through his 1975 introduction of a line of miniatures for Chainmail and D&D. It really was a tight knit bunch. Some dates that I find useful to know: War Game Digest 1957-1963. TTT 1962-1967. S&T first published in 1967. McHugh Fundamentals 3rd ed. 1966. Reiswitz translated 1983. Chainmail 1971 LBB's 1974 Now, if I were to try to make a connection between Korns And Reiswitz, it would be in an area of his game that is much overlooked and not spoken about. Korns did not design his game to simply be played as a one off. His real intent was for it to be used in a broader strategic level campaign. In this, he used topographical maps that he had blown up. Then he superimposed a grid system onto the map. Each grid was to be equal in size to his sand table, where the tactical elements of the game were to be resolved. As for who Korns influences were, Burnett claims his rules are influenced by SLA Marshalls studies. He was a Chief U.S. Combat Historian and author who looked deeply into infantry effectiveness during WW2 (Men Against Fire 1947 for example). |
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Post by Malchor on Nov 4, 2018 16:07:45 GMT -6
10. Use of polyhedrals Can you cite a passage in Korns (1966) where he mentions d20s? Famously, he has a chart for showing how to get percentile results from six-sided dice. Nor would it be unique or ground-breaking if he did mention them: he knew McHugh's work, and McHugh (1960) had detailed the use of polyhedrals to resolve percentile possibilities. I do vaguely recall there was some complication in sequencing the various editions of McHugh before 1966, and I don't have time to redo that work just this second, but it was an idea that was out there. Any chance of some help with McHugh? I am having trouble with two areas: 1. All of the chapters in McHugh’s book are said to have been present in the 1960 edition, with the 1966 edition being more up an update and re-edit. I am looking for a 1960 edition to confirm the Appendix was present in 1960, and to see if the edits were material. 2. Where either of the 1960 and 1966 editions available to the public? If not where they available to Army personal or only Navy? Both of the above are important in understanding if McHugh had an impact on Korns or Wesely—short of asking them. |
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Post by increment on Nov 4, 2018 18:07:42 GMT -6
Both of the above are important in understanding if McHugh had an impact on Korns or Wesely—short of asking them. My recollection (still don't have time to redo the work just now) is that I had to go to some expensive American military archives print-on-demand service to get earlier versions of McHugh - it wasn't Googleable, but then again, much more is Googleable now than was when I did my primary PatW research a decade ago. I had to do similarly annoying things to get, say, the key RAND stuff of the 1950s. How accessible a document like McHugh would have been within the military in the 1960s, I can't say. |
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Post by Malchor on Nov 4, 2018 19:30:23 GMT -6
My recollection (still don't have time to redo the work just now) is that I had to go to some expensive American military archives print-on-demand service to get earlier versions of McHugh - it wasn't Googleable, but then again, much more is Googleable now than was when I did my primary PatW research a decade ago. I had to do similarly annoying things to get, say, the key RAND stuff of the 1950s. How accessible a document like McHugh would have been within the military in the 1960s, I can't say. No access via Google Books, Archive.org nor worldcat.org. |
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Post by Malchor on Dec 15, 2018 18:34:32 GMT -6
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 17, 2018 22:52:35 GMT -6
Thread moved from Links & Resources to Wargames & Miniatures forum & made StickySee also this thread for additional discussion of Korns' Modern Warfare in Miniature.
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Post by mattconfusion on Apr 25, 2019 4:06:07 GMT -6
So, you heard that Michael Korns created a wargame in 1966, called "Modern War in Miniature", that introduced individual player controlled characters and a Judge (GM) who set up the scenario for the players to explore. You may also have heard suggestions that Korns game can be attributed as part of gaming history that led to the concept of roleplaying and the development of our beloved D&D. Yet, how many have actually played Korns game? It sounds intriguing doesn't it? How far does it take those concepts? Well, the game's still in print through John Curry's The History of Wargaming Project. But, even if you're a wargamer, it's still not highly accessible as something the average gamer is likely to pick up. In that vein, I offer you Colonels of Korns. This is my condensed take on Korns original game. Get a couple guys together and give it a go. Any questions, post em. Cheers! Sorry to resurrect this thread but the dropbox links to derv work are no longer available. Can you repost them? Thanks! |
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