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Post by everyfan on Jun 10, 2016 18:45:04 GMT -6
Im not sure if someone's posted about this before, but i was just looking at the UW&WA section on Baronies and noticed that it says "territory up to 20 miles distant MAY be kept clear of monsters once cleared;" i've always taken this as the player has to clear that much to have a barony, but maybe its just saying that 20mi is a maximum, beyond which monsters will respawn, so to speak.
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on Jun 10, 2016 19:22:21 GMT -6
As I understand it, once each hex is cleared of a monster/monsters, up to a 20 mile radius from ground zero/the castle, all such hexes will remain free of spawning as long as reasonable patrolling/guarding is maintained. Beyond such range becomes, non-manageable/cannot be kept monster free.
That's just my perspective of it.
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 10, 2016 19:59:53 GMT -6
Yes, everyfan, I think the "may" there is important. I agree with you and I take it as a post facto benefit of the work, not as a necessity before claiming and building a stronghold and founding a barony.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2016 20:07:41 GMT -6
Im not sure if someone's posted about this before, but i was just looking at the UW&WA section on Baronies and noticed that it says "territory up to 20 miles distant MAY be kept clear of monsters once cleared;" i've always taken this as the player has to clear that much to have a barony, but maybe its just saying that 20mi is a maximum, beyond which monsters will respawn, so to speak. I seem to remember that's how Gary did it. The idea is that there has to be farmland to support the castle and the peasants don't produce well if they're continually being eaten by ogres.
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Post by everyfan on Jun 11, 2016 6:54:07 GMT -6
i just always thought you HAD to clear 20 miles, no less XD
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 11, 2016 7:45:40 GMT -6
i just always thought you HAD to clear 20 miles, no less XD I read you. Me too. And, of course, you can run it that way in your campaign. The way I've been running it: you've got to clear two concentric circles of hexes before you can gather a population. I may even rule that down to one circle of hexes around the barony hex. We shall see'
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Post by derv on Jun 11, 2016 7:49:39 GMT -6
My outlook on clearing land is that it serves a number of unstated purposes. In clearing the land, in preparation for building a stronghold, you are actually prospecting for resources. Until the land is cleared, you do not really know what is there. You're looking for a water supply, raw materials for construction, arable land for farming, sources of future wealth acquisitions- investments (mining, ship building, metal work, textiles, hunting, road construction, etc.), and you're creating a "safe" environment for these things to take place by removing all hostile residents, while at the same time ascertaining that your site is defensible.
How much land needs to be cleared before construction starts? I think the rules are giving you reasonable guidelines for a moderate sized stronghold. If all you are building is a wooden palisade with a small wooden fort for 80 men-at-arms, you really wouldn't need to clear as much land.
The rule book refers to the cleared land as a "territory". As a GM, I would not permit habitation of villagers until the land was cleared or possibly it would be on a very small scale. The tax income is one of the motivators for clearing land.
It should be mentioned that the text is assuming 5 mile hexes. It is not precisely clear whether clearing 20 miles of land is meant to be a radius from the castle or an area around the castle. I read it as a radius, but I do not use 5 mile hexes. I use 6 mile hexes, which necessitates the clearing of three hexes on all sides of your stronghold, instead of four.
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Post by derv on Jun 11, 2016 9:42:49 GMT -6
Another thing worth considering is the assumption that the territory would be continually patrolled.
If you are using the movement rates given in U&WA with 5 mile hexes, then a 20 mile radius is the max distance that medium horsemen can travel and still return to the castle in a day. It works out to a four day course around the territories border to return to the castle whether you fit out for medium or light horsemen. Heavy horsemen would not generally be used as scouts.
If a territory only covers the 5 mile hexes that surround a stronghold, medium horseman could patrol the entire border in a day. Even footmen could reach the border and return in a day or patrol the entire border in two days, returning on the third.
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 11, 2016 11:33:29 GMT -6
derv I like your reasoning here. I make my PCs hire prospectors and surveyors. So, we probably just balance out in different directions.
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on Jun 11, 2016 11:44:47 GMT -6
i just always thought you HAD to clear 20 miles, no less XD Not at all. In fact, if one would rather, p.20 allows that "At any time a player/character wishes he may select a portion of land (or a city lot)upon which to build his castle, tower, or whatever." (or a city lot)?! Really? Then aside from permits and fees and hiring laborers, one might assume that within an already established city, the p/c would have no need to worry about "clearing" the vicinity of "monsters."
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Post by derv on Jun 11, 2016 17:57:35 GMT -6
derv I like your reasoning here. I make my PCs hire prospectors and surveyors. So, we probably just balance out in different directions. I think this would be a reasonably consistent approach with what the rules present for hiring specialists. Nothing wrong with that. How much do you charge for their services?
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Post by talysman on Jun 12, 2016 10:13:06 GMT -6
i just always thought you HAD to clear 20 miles, no less XD Not at all. In fact, if one would rather, p.20 allows that "At any time a player/character wishes he may select a portion of land (or a city lot)upon which to build his castle, tower, or whatever." (or a city lot)?! Really? Then aside from permits and fees and hiring laborers, one might assume that within an already established city, the p/c would have no need to worry about "clearing" the vicinity of "monsters." Exactly. You can build at any time, but you have to clear an area around the castle to attract taxpayers. As for the distance, I prefer calling hexes "2 league hexes" instead of "5 mile hexes" or "6 mile hexes". A league is the distance you can travel overland in one hour, and is usually equated to either 2 1/2 miles or 3 miles, since it depends on terrain and the average ruggedness of the population, really. As it happens, U&WA seems to use 2 1/2 miles per league, which makes hexes 5 miles. But if you prefer, you could use the 3-mile league, making hexes 6 miles across, and keep the radius of cleared land at 4 hexes, the maximum travel distance for 1 day, as derv points out. I'd allow expansion beyond the 4 hex border if the PC built outposts and hired guards to assign to each outpost. Or the PCs could get someone to swear fealty to them and grant them land to clear on their own, expanding the overall territory.
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 12, 2016 15:43:04 GMT -6
talysman, I'm not sure that it is clear to me in the wording of the rules themselves that the clearing of the land is required for its benefits. It seems to me it is only required if you want to claim that hex and keep it free from monsters. derv from memory (don't have my campaign docs in front of me) I believe it is 500 per mo for a surveyor and 750 per mo for a prospector. They will only enter into cleared lands. It takes one week for them to prospect and survey one hex.
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Post by derv on Jun 12, 2016 17:51:40 GMT -6
talysman , I'm not sure that it is clear to me in the wording of the rules themselves that the clearing of the land is required for its benefits. It seems to me it is only required if you want to claim that hex and keep it free from monsters. Once again, there seem to be some assumptions within the text (based upon medieval traditions). You must build on unclaimed land in order to attract tax paying residents. This will normally be found in the wilderness. Otherwise, if you build within an existing city, there is likely already a Lord, King, or Baron, whose vassals (likely you would be considered one) owe allegiance and pay the taxes to. But, it does save you from the need to clear land. The text in U&WA does say, "Another advantage accruing to those who build their strongholds in the wilderness is that they will gain control over the surrounding countryside. Clearing the countryside of monsters is the first requirement." derv from memory (don't have my campaign docs in front of me) I believe it is 500 per mo for a surveyor and 750 per mo for a prospector. They will only enter into cleared lands. It takes one week for them to prospect and survey one hex. This could be a considerable additional time investment. Do you require prospecting and surveying before construction starts? Rough calculations: Clearing 6 hexes (5 miles) takes min. 2 days (horsed party explores at speed of draft horse) 18 hexes (10 miles) 4 days 60 hexes (20 miles) 14 days (2 days rest) Prospecting or prospecting & surveying 6 hexes immediately surrounding castle hex (1.5 mths.)= 1125/ 1875 18 hexes 10 miles distance (4 mths.)= 3000/ 5000 60 hexes 20 mile distance (14 mths.)= 10,500/ 17,500
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Post by talysman on Jun 12, 2016 18:21:34 GMT -6
talysman, I'm not sure that it is clear to me in the wording of the rules themselves that the clearing of the land is required for its benefits. It seems to me it is only required if you want to claim that hex and keep it free from monsters. It seems pretty clear to me. Here's a more substantial quote from page 24 of Underworld & Wilderness Adventures: First paragraph distinguishes the benefit of building a stronghold on land under the player's control vs. land not under the player's control. If you have a proper stronghold on land under your control, you don't pay support and upkeep. Second paragraph, labeled "Baronies", tells you what is needed to to control the countryside: clearing the land. Clearing the land is not a benefit itself; the benefit is controlling the land. This is the lead-in to the quote everyfan was talking about in the OP. Third paragraph talks about settlements and tax revenue. These are the consequence of controlling a territory. There are only two benefits mentioned in the entire section: controlling territory around the stronghold, and avoiding support and upkeep costs, both of which are a consequence of collecting taxes. Yes, if you do clear the hex and surrounding areas in a 4-hex radius, it will remain free of monsters. But why would you want to do that, except to build a settlement and collect taxes? And how would you support yourself, if you aren't collecting taxes?
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 12, 2016 18:31:57 GMT -6
derv, yes, it costs lots of time and money. But high-lvl PCs need a hole cut in their purses and I get tired of saying that thieves raided their hide out! ;) I do not require prospecting before building -- only clearing the hex (or taking it over from a previous occupant). This is because I count the prospecting and surveying as preparations for "additional investments" and therefore potential sources of revenue. And better income than taxes a bunch of serfs. Here is a thread on another forum where I describe what I do: ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/7707And here is a post where I describe how investment contributes to the growth of one's territory (from barony to county, etc.): ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/7708
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 12, 2016 18:42:59 GMT -6
talysman , I'm not sure that it is clear to me in the wording of the rules themselves that the clearing of the land is required for its benefits. It seems to me it is only required if you want to claim that hex and keep it free from monsters. It seems pretty clear to me. Here's a more substantial quote from page 24 of Underworld & Wilderness Adventures: First paragraph distinguishes the benefit of building a stronghold on land under the player's control vs. land not under the player's control. If you have a proper stronghold on land under your control, you don't pay support and upkeep. Second paragraph, labeled "Baronies", tells you what is needed to to control the countryside: clearing the land. Clearing the land is not a benefit itself; the benefit is controlling the land. This is the lead-in to the quote everyfan was talking about in the OP. Third paragraph talks about settlements and tax revenue. These are the consequence of controlling a territory. There are only two benefits mentioned in the entire section: controlling territory around the stronghold, and avoiding support and upkeep costs, both of which are a consequence of collecting taxes. Yes, if you do clear the hex and surrounding areas in a 4-hex radius, it will remain free of monsters. But why would you want to do that, except to build a settlement and collect taxes? And how would you support yourself, if you aren't collecting taxes? talysman , I'm sure your probably right. You know the rules so well and you've played so much more than me. I agree with you that it is implicit in the flow of the paragraphs. I am only saying that it is not explicit. It no where says that land up to 20 miles in radius MUST be cleared for the territory to attract inhabitants for taxation. So, I totally agree with your summary of the first paragraph quoted from U&WA. I start to disagree with your summary of the second paragraph. I believe it is possible to read it to be saying only that freedom from monsters is a benefit of having a stronghold. A single stronghold can keep up to a 20 mile radius free from monsters. The condition of that possibility is that the occupant has properly exterminated any current monsters. The third paragraph does not say that it follows from the second paragraph. It can be read as an additional benefit of a stronghold: settlers and their taxation. All I'm saying is that it is nowhere explicit that land must be cleared to enjoy this benefit. I read the second paragraph as a self-contained unit, talking about monster management. That said, just by implication, at least the hex on which the stronghold is found must be cleared. Sometimes, that is evicting its previous chaotic occupant! Further, just so you don't think I've gone entirely off the deep end (or found a way to hand out delicious candies for free) I have been requiring at least a 2 hex radius around the hex on which the stronghold is found before making the settlements roll. I may wind up reducing that to only a one hex radius after this discussion! But what I've found is that most players want the monster free thing and they want their territory "maxed out." (Typical player min-maxing ;)) I think if I played it strictly according to the way that I am reading the rules, I would not allow 2d4 to be rolled for settlements if the lazy bum only cleared the hex on which he founded his stronghold! There just simply wouldn't be enough room for 8 possible villages in approximately 25 square miles! Only 1d4 for that bum! So I would require at least one layer of hexes for the player to get the full 2d6 roll. And if they didn't pretty quickly clear a 2 hex radius, there would suddenly be a lot of lairs along their tiny little borders. ;) I'm just making a point about the way I read the text.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jun 13, 2016 13:15:15 GMT -6
For me these are guidelines, yet they illuminate the underlying thinking.
Continual control over a territory requires the ability to protect it, to clear out unwanted elements. From a the centerpoint of a standard human settlement that means 20 miles. This is how far humans can walk in a day. I believe the figure presupposes a significant force moving out of a stronghold for one day's march. This is 1 day's march from reinforcements or a scout's running trip back from the edge to inform the leader. It's also within reach of potential safety for a routed army retreating, possibly even in forced marched which can be as far as regular movement before severe penalties.
Actual 20 mile borders would be the farthest protected land and yet still safe. It's not where most combat would take place I'd presume. Closer lands would be safer and more valuable as most settlers would stay near the stronghold anyways.
There are modifications to this 20 mile figure then, if you go with my thinking. 1st, faster or slower moving populations are going to hold different sized territories for this single-cell example of how far territory extends. 2nd, types of territory and corresponding types and speeds of movement will affect the distance as well. 3rd, players could always elect to attempt to control more or less territory. The given amount is an equilibrium state.
For example, halflings settled on a lake shore will only patrol out to 10 miles on land (1/2 speed) and waterbourne patrols will depend on types of ships owned and operated, if at all. Perhaps 1 mile for oared fishing boats. This isn't a perfect circle like the standard rules give, but it's not a bad extrapolation in my book.
It's also important to remember cities and settlements of large size have many strongholds throughout to protect their holdings and the defensible zone of territory grows. How these are placed and garrisoned goes into city and civilized lands design. A game in itself.
The process of clearing and claiming lands as well as garnering settlers is important to (as seen in the posts above). Who is the final authority and to whom the land may already be claimed by is another matter. Vasselage and taxes would need to be paid up, if so.
Smaller fortifications like a hermitage, even simply a lean-to, won't be able to house any army to contend with protecting a 20-mile radius territory. So building and establishing a house outside of civilized lands would be different. How big an army has to be to hold the lands is up to the population and makeup of the surrounding wilderness too. A hermit is better of hiding and a "little house on the prairie" is probably better understood as a farm on the edge of civilzation, the borderlands. Not a 100% independent clan, which requires a good bit of self-sufficiency even if they only build primitive tools and technology.
Houses in a city or town work differently. These are sort of cells within a larger group allegiance must be given to, which usually includes support to the group's defending force. So, taxes, tithes, laws, and all the extras that go into civilization adventuring (yeah! papers and paychecks).
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Post by derv on Jun 13, 2016 20:08:41 GMT -6
I have a few more musings on this idea of clearing land.
Considering the mechanic of wilderness exploration, we are told to check for wandering monsters every day (turn). If you turn to the next page (pg.18) where the Wilderness Wandering Monsters Table is found, you will notice that the chance of encountering a wandering monster is variably based on terrain. Uniquely, the first terrain type category is "Clear".
Now, I have to admit that I have always considered this category somewhat of a catchall, mostly to include open plains or grassland. But, since we've been having this discussion, I'm reconsidering my views to a degree.
Let's presume that the idea is that you will maintain regular patrols of your borders while construction is taking place. Every once in a while a wandering monster check is made. On a roll of "6", there is an encounter. If you have cleared the land 20 miles out from your castle's construction site, it would seem reasonable for the encounter to occur at the outer perimeter. Consequently, if you have only cleared the hex where the actual stronghold is being built and this is where the party is currently located, then this is where the encounter will take place. Obviously, this will have a disruptive affect on normal activities.
Remember, these are not lairs. These are wandering monsters.
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