Hell is empty, and all SPOILERS are here: Game of Thrones

[Deleted]

Hodor?

[Zenopus]

Spoilers allowed? For the first time I'm actually watching the new season as it comes out, so I can actually read reviews and articles about it after each episode is on. And participate in discussions like this.

[Mushgnome]

What you talking bout Wyllas?

[talysman]

I simultaneously thought "that's a pretty gut-wrenching moment" and "Oh COME ON! They aren't REALLY speaking English!"

[Deleted]

I'd say, *spoilers allowed*. The books are twenty years old, the series is making news everywhere. There wouldn't be need to talk about it if it was not for the stuff that is currently going on.

Myself, I have an intense love-hate relationship with the series and the world. On one side, it grossly oversells what I take to be very cheap camp, but on the other side... It's so fluffy.


This season, funny, though. Lots of fan service, lots of love for the actors. The overall plot, meanwhile, has more holes than Jon Snow's chest at the end of "A Dance with Dragons", but, at this point, seriously it's just "General Hospital" with dragons, to me. Which is meant as a compliment, by the way.

[Deleted]

Like, plot hole NUMERO UNO: So, Brienne has seen Arya, but doesn't care to mention it to Sansa and Jon. The same for Jon knowing that Bran is alive, and doing ABSOLUTAMENTE NADA to find the kid during his tenure at Castle Black.

Like, I am not the kind of guy who asks whether the lungs of the dragon queen are also fire- and smoke-proof, or why Brynden Tully gained twenty pounds in prison; but, come on, when the show starts to forget about its own story, then I allow myself to mildly smirk.

What I liked about this season so far, though, I can sum up in that, from the very beginning, Brienne was my favorite character. And now she has found a fitting suitor.

[talysman]

"General Hospital with dragons" probably means the same thing I mean by "intrigue porn". So I can see that...

Gotta correct you on the Brienne-Arya matter, though. I distinctly remember her telling Sansa, and that she specifically mentioned she didn't know where she went after that.

[Porphyre]

May 29, 2016 20:36:30 GMT -6 talysman said:

"Oh COME ON! They aren't REALLY speaking English!"

Same here for me. I had to tell myself that "Hodor" is probably a english transposition from another andal-sounding onomatopy. 

[archersix]

I just hope this current season of the tv show spurs GRRM to finish the next d**n book!

I'm interested to see how the written work differs from the show, how much plot did Martin give the show's producers, and etc.

[Deleted]

May 30, 2016 13:19:53 GMT -6 talysman said:

Gotta correct you on the Brienne-Arya matter, though. I distinctly remember her telling Sansa, and that she specifically mentioned she didn't know where she went after that.

Yeah, I stand corrected. I don't remember the episode, but I now recall that there was a scene when Brienne narrated her encounter with the Hound.

[Deleted]

May 30, 2016 15:44:10 GMT -6 archersix said:

I just hope this current season of the tv show spurs GRRM to finish the next d**n book!

I'm interested to see how the written work differs from the show, how much plot did Martin give the show's producers, and etc.

Actually, I am not unhappy that the show will likely finish before the books! The internet is way more ardent in its dismissal of the later books than I am - but a lot of the later storylines (Lady Stoneheart/Dorne/Young Griff) felt very forced, and sometimes even pretty bloated. If the TV series can trim things down a bit, then I am okay with it, provided that this doesn't mean more moments of "mad poosey", if you know what I mean.

[talysman]

I haven't even read the books.

Not just because of the daunting size or the fears of investing in an unfinished series. I read nine or ten of the Wild Cards books, which GRRM edited, and I believe he wrote the Great and Powerful Turtle stories in that series (and maybe some of the early Doctor Tachyon material?) His stuff was OK, but not really compelling writing.

Also, the Wild Cards books were very into wallowing in human misery, which gets old fast. I suspect, from watching the Game of Thrones, the books are more of the same.

If you dread having to read something, you probably shouldn't read it.

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

May 31, 2016 13:46:28 GMT -6 talysman said:

I haven't even read the books.

Not just because of the daunting size or the fears of investing in an unfinished series. I read nine or ten of the Wild Cards books, which GRRM edited, and I believe he wrote the Great and Powerful Turtle stories in that series (and maybe some of the early Doctor Tachyon material?) His stuff was OK, but not really compelling writing.

Also, the Wild Cards books were very into wallowing in human misery, which gets old fast. I suspect, from watching the Game of Thrones, the books are more of the same.

If you dread having to read something, you probably shouldn't read it.

Actually, yeah, your verdict is merciless, but pretty accurate. The novels bring postmodern and noir tropes into contemporary fantasy, but outside of these mostly sensationalist measures (lots of sex, lots of graphic violence), ASoiaF is not really that strong. The first book is pretty nice for its reversal of fantasy conventions (Ned is introduced as the main character, yet dies). - But after that, the plot falls flat, and GRRM pretty openly shows that he doesn't know where to take things. If there's a lasting value to the books, it's because their well-written dialogues; but not because of the story.

[Falconer]

I’d say it stands as an excellent exercise in world-building, even regardless of whether or not the novels are ever finished.

[talysman]

Jun 1, 2016 3:15:42 GMT -6 Falconer said:

I’d say it stands as an excellent exercise in world-building, even regardless of whether or not the novels are ever finished.

That's one of the counterarguments in my internal debate about whether to read it or not. I'm aware that there's a ton more history of the world revealed in the books, and I have half an urge to read them for that.

There's also "Hey, I wonder what other ideas GRRM decided to borrow?" Like, how is it not obvious to everyone that Valyria = Melniboné?

[Deleted]

Jun 1, 2016 3:15:42 GMT -6 Falconer said:

I’d say it stands as an excellent exercise in world-building, even regardless of whether or not the novels are ever finished.

Does it, really? Because, yeah, as presented in the novels, the setting is consistent, but only on a small scale, and from the bottom-up. - Basically, the universal answer to everything is that Westeros is very, very backwoods. Top-down, the setting doesn't work at all. Looks great, but doesn't work at all. Like, didn't GRRM just introduce timetravel to the TV series, just because there was a plot point that would apparently have been otherwise unfixable?

[Deleted]

Jun 1, 2016 9:57:03 GMT -6 talysman said:

Valyria = Melniboné?

Actually, yeah, and that's kind of cool. It's a bit of a shame that Moorcock doesn't write any more, by the way!

The general worldbuilding seems very inspired by the Osten Ard novels by Tad Williams, though. Basically, King's Landing is Erchester, and the Dothraki are the people from Thrithings. And, for all that is known from GRRM's actual novels, it seems like Williams' sidhe, and the Children of the Forest are very similar in the way they act.

[Falconer]

Worldbuilding IS borrowing. Tolkien, Lewis, Gygax, Rowling, you name it, borrowing amply and borrowing well is the name of the game.

[Deleted]

Hehe, I concur. After all, my world is called "Meleon", and the main continents are called "Norran" and "Erle". Though that's obviously not really *good* borrowing, but rather cheap, to tell the truth.

That said, no mistake, I personally hate-love what Martin is doing; he will certainly go down in history as the creator of a strong modern myth; somewhat like the Graustark series of novels of its time, perhaps. (And, for instance, I personally think that his family is called "Stark" is a direct allusion to that series --- even that's really just my theory made from shower thoughts.)

[talysman]

Oh, I don't deny that world-creation involves a great deal of borrowing. There's a fuzzy line between "borrowed, but really transformed it into something uniquely theirs" and "borrowed, didn't really do squat to hide it". Where you should fall on the line varies, depending on what you're doing. For gaming, I'm a big advocate for borrowing lots of recognizable stuff and barely filing the serial numbers off, because you need something quick to produce and quick for players to grasp.

I think GRRM's Valyria probably lies more towards the transformed end of that spectrum, but what I wonder is: is it just a brief nod to Moorcock or more of a playful jab, the whole "turning fantasy tropes on their heads" thing?

[talysman]

I haven't read the Graustark novels. Are they based on the War of the Roses, too? Did GRRM get the idea from them, or was that his own decision?

[Deleted]

A small, yet extremely heavy spoiler just leaked over at Reddit. Click at your own risk:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/4nk3km/season_6_episode_10_spoilers_on_the_opening/

[Deleted]

Jun 1, 2016 19:27:00 GMT -6 talysman said:

I haven't read the Graustark novels. Are they based on the War of the Roses, too? Did GRRM get the idea from them, or was that his own decision?

Sorry, overlooked that one last time!

- Not quite, but a basic similarity is there. Might be coincidental... But I don't believe so. GRRM is simply too good to not know about that one:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graustark

[Deleted]

You can listen in on them right away, btw:

[Deleted]

Your verdict on the season, so far, gentlemen?

[talysman]

Pretty good, but there's more of a feeling of deliberate delaying tactics to fill time in a couple places. And because of this, time is getting all wonky. We all know, at least on some level, that two scenes 15 minutes apart may actually represent days, weeks, or even months of time passing. But when you have multiple concurrent stories being stretched across several episodes, and one (Arya's story) happens over a span of a couple days, while another (Theon and Yara taking a hundred ships to Essos) happens concurrently, it makes it look like the Iron Islands has warp drive technology. Throw in the Meereen vs. Slavers Bay conflct, and you've got to wonder how is it that Yara's fleet didn't attack the slavers' fleet from behind? Did they spend an extra hour in Volantis?

[Falconer]

Yep, a lot of teleporting going on. Petyr’s army goes from the Vale to the Wall (how did they get past the Twins?) to who-knows-where and surprises everyone at Winterfell (I guess Jon and Ramsay had no scouts). Brienne from the Wall to Riverrun. Most of these occur within the space of a couple of scenes.

I think it’s an underwhelming season; basically they went back to Book 4 A Feast For Crows, and sprinkled in some spoilers that GRRM told them (but without any dramatic effect). Everything falls out in a predictable the-good-guys-win, rebootish fashion that doesn’t jive with the rest of the series. Characters are way more black and white than ever.

I would have thought, okay, GRRM doesn’t know how to wrap this thing up and never will, so, let’s give the showrunners a chance. But it turns out their flailing around and stalling and have no clue, either. So, I think they need to put the series on permanent hiatus. Maybe they could do like Sherlock, and produce a limited season of 3 episodes every year or two. Those episodes would be BIG events. They could bring GRRM in to help write them. Imagine how much better this season would have been as just 3 episodes.

[Deleted]

FWIW, it seems, as if today, based on an error by Amazon France, the estimated, and FINAL release date for "The Winds of Winter" has leaked:

The book will supposedly be on sale in March 2017. Now, Amazon dates are usually pretty flexible, but it seems things are finally reaching the home stretch, at least with respect to book six. Not that I would terribly care, any more, to tell the truth - the TV series is good TV, but I don't need to spend another 1000 pages retelling what I just watched. As to book seven, well... 2022?

[Deleted]

FWIW, the internet is ablaze today because the plot of season 7 just leaked.
Not sure what to think about these levels of hysteria, any more, really.

Like with Star Wars 7, some of the fan theories - outside of any work with spoilers - are entertainment enough for me. Flying with drones over the movie sets, in the hopes of listening in? Weird.