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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 4, 2008 13:35:08 GMT -6
Driver wanted to discuss some of the classic fiction which inspired Dungeons & Dragons. I thought I'd kick off a discussion of Elric. Elric is an anti-hero, has a magic sword, and uses summoning magic instead of memorize-and-shoot. Elric is often considered to be one of the big Law v. Chaos models. Elric has undergone several different phases: 1. Original stories published in magazines. 2. Stories organized into book form with a more consistent overall storyline and "eternal champion" theme. 3. Several newer stories were written years after the main sequence. I started a thread over on DF about the "new" Elric book coming out. It appears that there is a collection of Elric stories in the form they first appeared in magazines. Here's the thread at DF in case anyone is interested.
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Post by driver on Apr 4, 2008 14:05:55 GMT -6
It's been a long time since I read Elric, but he was one of my favorites. I have the first three Elric books on my spring reading list, along with some Corum and Hawkmoon (never read either).
IIRC, Donblas the Justice Bringer was one of the only gods in DDG with 400 hp and straight 25s, so paladins in our old campaigns generally worshipped him. :B
And, of course, no one EVER gives back Blackrazor like they're supposed to.
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 4, 2008 14:16:08 GMT -6
I recently re-read The Stealer of Souls and Stormbringer in their original Lancer Books editions from the 60s, before they were revised and reorganized with later-written material interspersed. I greatly enjoyed every story in the first volume every bit as much as when I first read them as a kid, if not moreso. Stormbringer didn't hold up as well -- the tonal shift between the end of "The Flamebringers" (cautiously optimistic, but with the weight of impending doom) and the beginning of Stormbringer (OMG the world is ending Right Now! Blood! Guts everywhere!) was too sudden and drastic, and what comes after goes increasingly over the top in a way which screams "awesome!" when you're 13 years old and have never read anything like it before ("ZOMG he's killing all the main characters!") but from an adult perspective comes off more as adolescent melodrama and posing (no wonder White Wolf games named themselves after his work ). While I think The Stealer of Souls is a book I could continue to come back to, I can't really say the same for Stormbringer. And I have no desire at all to re-read any of the later stuff ( The Sailor on the Seas of Fate, The Vanishing Tower, The Revenge of the Rose, etc.) which even at the time felt ponderous, over-written, and burdened by the intrusion of the Eternal Champion business. My current sweeping judgment on the Elric saga is that it's at its best when it's closest to being a copy of Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword (which was, by Moorcock's own admission, his biggest influence) and the further afield it goes from that the less good it is.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 4, 2008 17:10:06 GMT -6
I strongly agree, Foster. I prefer the original set of Elric short stories:
The Dreaming City (1961) While the Gods Laugh (1962) The Stealer of Souls (1962) Kings in Darkness (1962) The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams (1962) The Last Enchantment (1962)
Moorcock originally intended for these stories to be the only Elric stories, but in 1965 he changed his mind with "Stormbringer" (which, as Foster indicates, is the most over-the-top [and, frankly, ridiculous] book I've ever read).
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 4, 2008 17:17:14 GMT -6
I don't believe I've read "The Last Enchantment," unless it was under another name (such as "The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams," which I read under the title "The Flamebringers"). Where can it be found?
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Post by philotomy on Apr 4, 2008 17:32:03 GMT -6
I haven't read the Elric stories in years, but I don't think I'm going to. Moorcock was one of my favorite authors when I was younger (junior high), but I recently re-read the Corum stories and found them disappointing and not as good as I remembered (not the story -- just the writing). I decided not to re-read any more Moorcock; I want to keep my fond memories of his stories intact.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 4, 2008 17:51:04 GMT -6
I don't believe I've read "The Last Enchantment," unless it was under another name (such as "The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams," which I read under the title "The Flamebringers"). Where can it be found? As far as I know, the only place it is published is in the paperback Elric at the End of Time. It is a very short story (perhaps 15 pages). It's probably my least favorite of the original six Elric stories.
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 4, 2008 18:11:59 GMT -6
As far as I know, the only place it is published is in the paperback Elric at the End of Time. It is a very short story (perhaps 15 pages). It's probably my least favorite of the original six Elric stories. Ah, that would explain it. Never had that book. As a kid I dismissed it as cheesy because Moorcock was bringing Elric back post- Stormbringer, not realizing at the time that 2/3 of the 6-volume "canonical" Elric series was written that same way; by the time I figured out the truth I was enough past my Elric phase that I just never bothered to go back and pick it up. Perhaps I will now, since I believe it's fairly common in used bookstores...
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Post by driver on Apr 4, 2008 19:16:53 GMT -6
Wow, none of this commentary is boding well for my return to Elric after twenty or however many years.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 4, 2008 21:35:44 GMT -6
Wow, none of this commentary is boding well for my return to Elric after twenty or however many years. But it is boding well for a start on a Fiction section. So far there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm.
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Post by coffee on Apr 4, 2008 23:50:11 GMT -6
Oddly enough, I just got some Elric (and Corum) books from my local Half Price Books a few months ago, and I agree. They were great when I was in High School, but they're not as good today. There are still some good ideas and monsters and such, but the writing doesn't seem to live up.
On the other hand, I've also gotten some Robert E. Howard. Now those stories hold up, even after all these years!
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Post by grodog on Apr 5, 2008 8:44:04 GMT -6
I haven't read the Elric stories in years, but I don't think I'm going to. Moorcock was one of my favorite authors when I was younger (junior high), but I recently re-read the Corum stories and found them disappointing and not as good as I remembered (not the story -- just the writing). I decided not to re-read any more Moorcock; I want to keep my fond memories of his stories intact. This is actually one of the reasons that I enjoy reading the revisions, as well as the originals: Moorcock is a much better writer even by the time he's writing The Warhound and the World's Pain in the early '80s (likely my favorite MM fantasy novel), much less what he's writing now. Sure, he's evolved the storylines substantially, and added lots of material between the original Elric books (and those may not appeal to you if you prefer the original, rawest forms of Elric), but his writing has certainly matured (in a good way) with each passing decade. IMO of course
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Post by James Maliszewski on Apr 5, 2008 10:31:20 GMT -6
The Elric stories, even the original ones, are not what I'd call great literature. They can be fun to read if you're in a certain frame of mind. They have many fascinating ideas, but the execution is often lacking IMO. Of course, it's possible that some of these flaws are by design, in that the Elric stories were written at least partially as Moorcock's answer to both the Howardian and Tolkienian brands of fantasy. Elric is intended to be the anti-Conan and the Young Kingdoms are the anti-Middle Earth. In this respect, the stories are also (mostly) the anti-D&D as well, since they reject much of the literary underpinnings of the game.
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 5, 2008 11:16:58 GMT -6
This is actually one of the reasons that I enjoy reading the revisions, as well as the originals: Moorcock is a much better writer even by the time he's writing The Warhound and the World's Pain in the early '80s (likely my favorite MM fantasy novel), much less what he's writing now. Sure, he's evolved the storylines substantially, and added lots of material between the original Elric books (and those may not appeal to you if you prefer the original, rawest forms of Elric), but his writing has certainly matured (in a good way) with each passing decade. IMO of course Indeed, Moorcock is much better as a writer and has a much different style in his later works than in the 60s, to the point where I almost think of him as two separate writers -- one who wrote the pulpy Elric, Hawkmoon, and Kane of Mars stories, and another who wrote Gloriana, Mother London, and the Von Bek series. The problem is when they mix, when they're juxtaposed, and when the latter guy tries to rework and revise the former guy's work. The early stuff is sloppily written and a lot of potential ideas aren't fully explored, but they're fun and they move along. The later stuff is more carefully crafted and artfully written but also tends to be slow and more difficult to grasp. I appreciate the later guy, I'm glad he's around and writing, but after a long day at work when I'm looking for some enjoyable reading I'm much more likely to turn to the former guy.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 5, 2008 12:41:40 GMT -6
I'm trying to get my son to read some of the Elric stories. He's a huge fan of AD&D Drow and Warhammer "Dark Elves" (like any teenager nowadays seems to be) but when I described the character he kept saying that it's been done.
Yeah, but Elric came first! Drzzt and other anti-heroes are patterned after him, not the other way around!
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Post by driver on Apr 5, 2008 16:15:45 GMT -6
I'm trying to get my son to read some of the Elric stories. He's a huge fan of AD&D Drow and Warhammer "Dark Elves" (like any teenager nowadays seems to be) but when I described the character he kept saying that it's been done. Yeah, but Elric came first! Drzzt and other anti-heroes are patterned after him, not the other way around! You know what they say about never going back ...
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Post by doc on Apr 5, 2008 20:07:00 GMT -6
While I read the Elric books, I can't say that I thought that they were great. Good, certainly, but not great. It was just too hard to be sympathetic to any of the characters.
As a gamer, what I DID like about the Elric series were the stories where several of the prominant characters would adventure together. Elric, Moonglum, Count Smiorgan, Rakhir, Dyvam Slorm. It was a great example of a high level party of D&D characters.
I liked other Moorcock stories much better. My personal favorite is a relatively obscure novel called (IIRC) The Golden Barge.
Doc
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 6, 2008 12:49:19 GMT -6
I don't believe I've read "The Last Enchantment," unless it was under another name. Where can it be found? I was reading through some of the Michael Moorcock message boards and found a few things of note: 1. "The Last Enchantment" was written sometime after the other 5 stories and sometime before Moorcock decided to write the bunch of stories in Stormbringer. 2. "The Last Enchantment" doesn't really fit the main chronology of stories. Moorcock seems to consider that it's somehow an alternate storyline. 3. "The Last Enchantment" is apparently only 15 pages in length. 4. The general consensus on the MM boards is that "The Last Enchantment" isn't a very good story. With those points in mind, I'm not going to be looking for it. I had a copy of ELRIC AT THE END OF TIME at one point and wasn't too impressed the first time around. I've seen copies pretty cheap on e-bay, however, if you're a series completist.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 6, 2008 15:50:32 GMT -6
I was reading through some of the Michael Moorcock message boards and found a few things of note: 1. "The Last Enchantment" was written sometime after the other 5 stories and sometime before Moorcock decided to write the bunch of stories in Stormbringer. 2. "The Last Enchantment" doesn't really fit the main chronology of stories. Moorcock seems to consider that it's somehow an alternate storyline. 3. "The Last Enchantment" is apparently only 15 pages in length. 4. The general consensus on the MM boards is that "The Last Enchantment" isn't a very good story. Numbers 1 and 3 are indeed the case. I agree with #4. I think #2 is exaggerated. There is only a minor uncertainty regarding it. With regard to the stories' internal chronology, it can be held to occur either right before or right after "The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams". Thus the stories could be read in either of the following two orders: The Dreaming City While the Gods Laugh The Stealer of Souls Kings in Darkness The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams The Last Enchantment or The Dreaming City While the Gods Laugh The Stealer of Souls Kings in Darkness The Last Enchantment The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 6, 2008 17:12:34 GMT -6
2. "The Last Enchantment" doesn't really fit the main chronology of stories. Moorcock seems to consider that it's somehow an alternate storyline. I think #2 is exaggerated. There is only a minor uncertainty regarding it. With regard to the stories' internal chronology, it can be held to occur either right before or right after "The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams". Maybe my use of "alternate storyline" is too extreme. I based my comment on this where someone who appears to be Michael Moorcock states: (edit mine) also, I guess that I interpreted this as meaning that MM couldn’t find a good place to put it in the series so it was some sort of story-orphan.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 6, 2008 22:02:32 GMT -6
Here is what I have come up with after some research. Below are the first publications of the original Elric stories:
"The Dreaming City" (Science Fantasy #47, June 1961)
"While the Gods Laugh" (Science Fantasy #49, October 1961)
"The Stealer of Souls" (Science Fantasy #51, February 1962)
"Kings in Darkness" (Science Fantasy #54, August 1962)
"The Flame Bringers" [later renamed "The Caravan of Forgotten Dreams"] (Science Fantasy #55, October 1962)
Here is a quote from Michael Moorcock found on pages 9-10 of Elric at the End of Time: 'The Last Enchantment was meant to be the final Elric story. It was written in 1962, only a short while after the first had appeared in magazine form and before I wrote what was to become Stormbringer. I gave the story to Ted Carnell for his magazine Science Fantasy but he didn't want a "last" Elric story. He persuaded me to write some more novellas...' (Therefore "The Last Enchantment didn't get published until 1978.)
The first installment of Stormbringer appeared in Science Fantasy #59, June 1963.
For me, the canonical Elric consists of the stories written in 1961 and 1962. The Elric stories of 1963 and later I consider apocryphal.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 11, 2008 7:09:08 GMT -6
I just re-read the 5 original Elric stories. Very nice!
I think I have a different perspective in reading just those 5, as compared to reading the five-novel series from the 1970's. In reading the novels there seems to be a sense of the "big picture" of the battle between Law and Chaos, with Elric being swept along for the ride. When reading the short stories by themselves, there seems to be more of a "hero on an adventure" type of thing going on and Elric seems more in control of his destiny.
Just a thought....
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Post by vladtolenkov on Apr 11, 2008 15:37:13 GMT -6
Okay. . .I'll come out and say it.
Michael Moorcock is probably my favorite writer.
And Elric was my introduction to his work. I loved these books when I was twelve, but (this being the 1980s) I originally read them in the novel series rather than the order they were published in. The violence in the books was undoubtedly one of their attractions. I had read the Lord of the Rings and the Thomas Covenant books by this time, but none of them beat the pure pulpy sword and sorcery goodness of Elric. I was aware of Robert E. Howard, but I hadn't read any of his work at this point. Elric's self-destructive streak I think made him less likeable, but possibly MORE human than Howard's indomitable Cimmerian (which is ironic considering that Elric isn't human).
Moorcock has said that the character's attitude is really a reflection of his own confused and cynical attitude as a young man during the period he started writing them in 1961.
Where the books fell a bit flat for me is when the later books: Fortress of the Pearl and Revenge of the Rose came out. My favorite single Elric work, when I was younger, was the novel The Vanishing Tower. It has a red haired sorceress, a robotic jewelled bird, an army of evil deformed beggars, monsters-a-plenty, and Elric's meeting with two other versions of himself (Erekose and Corum). Great stuff!
Ironically, I think I originally picked up the Elric books because I had seen the ads for Chaosium's Stormbringer game in Dragon Magazine, but I didn't end up buying the game until around 1991 or so (and I still have yet to really play it!) which was long after I read the books.
P.S. Check out my avatar image. It's a nifty Frank Brunner illo. of Elric kicking Chaos ass!
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 11, 2008 16:53:16 GMT -6
I think I have a different perspective in reading just those 5, as compared to reading the five-novel series from the 1970's. In reading the novels there seems to be a sense of the "big picture" of the battle between Law and Chaos, with Elric being swept along for the ride. When reading the short stories by themselves, there seems to be more of a "hero on an adventure" type of thing going on and Elric seems more in control of his destiny. Well put.
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Post by Thigru Thorkissen on Apr 11, 2008 19:49:50 GMT -6
Michael Moorcock is probably my favorite writer. Actually, I feel pretty much the same way. While I don't know if I would call him my favorite (fantasy) author, I can't think of any of author who I like more. He was clearly the most influential author on my early AD&D campaigns (my campaign world of Corraax from my campaigns of 1980-1988 was heavily influenced by these books). I think my favorite book is Sailor on the Seas of Fate, and I also agree about the later books ( Fortress of the Pearl, et. al.) not having the same feeling for me. While the "magic" of these books isn't there the way it was when I first read them at age 13, I still can't put them down once I pick them up. Thigru
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Post by vladtolenkov on Apr 12, 2008 0:56:44 GMT -6
As much as like the Elric books they aren't actually my favorite Moorcock novels. They were the ones that got me hooked though. The War Hound and The World's Pain is probable my favorite single novel of his.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 18, 2012 19:18:35 GMT -6
I recently finished re-reading the original collection of Elric stories:
The Dreaming City (1961) While the Gods Laugh (1962) The Stealer of Souls (1962) Kings in Darkness (1962) The Flame Bringers (1962) The Last Enchantment (1962)
As always, these are perhaps the most ardent page-turners I've ever read. These stories always fascinate me and keep me up late at night turning the pages. Carcosa owes a great debt to these stories.
I've come to think it probable that "The Last Enchantment" takes place after "The Flame Bringers". I notice that in "The Flame Bringers", Elric mentions that Stormbringer had gathered cobwebs in the 3 months since his marriage to Zarozinia. But in "The Last Enchantment", Elric is carrying Stormbringer while on a journey.
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Post by foxroe on Jan 18, 2012 20:31:54 GMT -6
Thanks for resurrecting this thread Geoffrey, actually. Despite the general "Moorcock is not Pulitzer material" tone, I'll say that I recently reread the Elric stories I remember reading as a kid and I I still enjoyed them for what they were. And they were obviously a big influence on D&D in general.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 31, 2012 14:08:10 GMT -6
My order.A lot of people forget “To Rescue Tanelorn…” which is a very early (pre- Stormbringer) story set in the Young Kingdoms which doesn’t feature Elric himself.
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Post by jasonzavoda on Jul 27, 2012 4:54:19 GMT -6
My experience was that I generally liked the Elric stories when I was a teenager but re-reading them I found that I don't enjoy them or any of Moorcock's writing in particular.
For me they are worth taking apart for ideas. Something I am currently doing with Jack Vance's Dying Earth series.
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