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Post by Mike on Dec 29, 2015 23:55:03 GMT -6
It's available but the preview doesn't give much away.
Any owners of the book care to comment on the pros and cons?
Many thanks
Mike
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Post by Mike on Dec 30, 2015 0:14:51 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 2:26:58 GMT -6
I supported the Kickstarter but lost interest. It's the only OSR book that takes into account that the rulebook starts with the DM doing some worldbuilding via hex creation rather than character creation. So it's set out quite differently to the other clones. I prefer the author's Dragons @ Dawn, it's more Blackmoor, less Chainmail, in comparison to CoZ.
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Post by cadriel on Dec 30, 2015 16:38:28 GMT -6
I think the author of Champions of ZED, Dan Boggs (a member on this forum) is a good guy and meant well with the game. But I think, unfortunately, it missed the mark.
The book is incredibly poorly organized and laid out, to the point where I wouldn't want to use it as a reference while running a game. The first four chapters are a weird mix of procedures for generating a world, creating a character, and running hexcrawl adventures. But for instance, players start in chapter 2 and then go into chapter 3 for character creation, but have to dip into chapter 4 for their equipment, chapter 5 for combat details, and chapter 7 for saving throws. Referees are likewise in a bit of a tizzy.
Some of the procedures are interesting. Some are a mess even in concept - there are three combat systems. One uses Target 20, one adapts the Chainmail mass combat tables, and one adapts the Chainmail man-to-man tables. Things are complicated further by a location-based critical hit system that only appears as an appendix. Monsters are relegated to another appendix; there are some interesting ideas, but the organization is a hot mess. A few things, such as OD&D's treasure by dungeon level, are missing entirely.
CoZ does have some bits that shine through the organization and layout. For instance, its processes for making and running a hexcrawl could be turned into a productive section of a clone like Swords & Wizardry Whitebox. In fact, I think the most productive thing someone could do with CoZ would be to rip out the sandbox procedures in chapters 1 and 4, and the morale and fatigue rules in chapter 5, simplify some of the writing, and merge them into chapter 5 of S&W Whitebox. Then replace S&W's swap-out treasure system with the CoZ "prize" rules. The changes to character classes, races, spells, and monsters are better off folded to the appropriate sections of S&W. All that would remain is to replace S&W's single saving throw with the six of CoZ. The result would be a pretty strong system.
But short of doing all that, I couldn't see a reason to use CoZ in a game. There's just not enough to justify picking it up in itself and not as a means to an end.
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Post by aldarron on Dec 30, 2015 18:55:26 GMT -6
I think the author of Champions of ZED, Dan Boggs (a member on this forum) is a good guy and meant well with the game. But I think, unfortunately, it missed the mark. The book is incredibly poorly organized and laid out, to the point where I wouldn't want to use it as a reference while running a game. The first four chapters are a weird mix of procedures for generating a world, creating a character, and running hexcrawl adventures. But for instance, players start in chapter 2 and then go into chapter 3 for character creation, but have to dip into chapter 4 for their equipment, chapter 5 for combat details, and chapter 7 for saving throws. Referees are likewise in a bit of a tizzy. Some of the procedures are interesting. Some are a mess even in concept - there are three combat systems. One uses Target 20, one adapts the Chainmail mass combat tables, and one adapts the Chainmail man-to-man tables. Things are complicated further by a location-based critical hit system that only appears as an appendix. Monsters are relegated to another appendix; there are some interesting ideas, but the organization is a hot mess. A few things, such as OD&D's treasure by dungeon level, are missing entirely. CoZ does have some bits that shine through the organization and layout. For instance, its processes for making and running a hexcrawl could be turned into a productive section of a clone like Swords & Wizardry Whitebox. In fact, I think the most productive thing someone could do with CoZ would be to rip out the sandbox procedures in chapters 1 and 4, and the morale and fatigue rules in chapter 5, simplify some of the writing, and merge them into chapter 5 of S&W Whitebox. Then replace S&W's swap-out treasure system with the CoZ "prize" rules. The changes to character classes, races, spells, and monsters are better off folded to the appropriate sections of S&W. All that would remain is to replace S&W's single saving throw with the six of CoZ. The result would be a pretty strong system. But short of doing all that, I couldn't see a reason to use CoZ in a game. There's just not enough to justify picking it up in itself and not as a means to an end. Ouch. I'm sorry you don't like the organization Wayne, but I'm not sure that's quite a fair assessment. Generally, the format followed the OGL source model. The topic order by chapter is really quite straghtforward. In any case there is an index that makes quick look up of any of the usual specific info needs pretty easy. However the book is truly not intended for beginners and so isn't very beginner friendly. It's aimed at experienced adults. I'd point out that there are also free downloads on this board that have all the character stats & Benefits, a complete ready reference sheets of tables, and a source reference document. There is no level beneath the surface treasure table because violating copyright laws invalidates the OGL., and I saw no way to make an accurate one without risking that. Instead I spelled it out in the text on page 139. I agree with you that the prize section is one of the true gems, and your mash-up idea is intriguing, but I'd say Delving Deeper is a much better fit. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 30, 2015 18:58:02 GMT -6
In fact, I think the most productive thing someone could do with CoZ would be to rip out the sandbox procedures in chapters 1 and 4, and the morale and fatigue rules in chapter 5, simplify some of the writing, and merge them into chapter 5 of S&W Whitebox. Then replace S&W's swap-out treasure system with the CoZ "prize" rules. The changes to character classes, races, spells, and monsters are better off folded to the appropriate sections of S&W. All that would remain is to replace S&W's single saving throw with the six of CoZ. The result would be a pretty strong system. So are the hexcrawl, moral, fatigue, etc. rules culled from OD&D or are they wholly original? If the latter I'm tempted to pick up a copy just out of interest. |
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Post by aldarron on Dec 30, 2015 19:03:17 GMT -6
In fact, I think the most productive thing someone could do with CoZ would be to rip out the sandbox procedures in chapters 1 and 4, and the morale and fatigue rules in chapter 5, simplify some of the writing, and merge them into chapter 5 of S&W Whitebox. Then replace S&W's swap-out treasure system with the CoZ "prize" rules. The changes to character classes, races, spells, and monsters are better off folded to the appropriate sections of S&W. All that would remain is to replace S&W's single saving throw with the six of CoZ. The result would be a pretty strong system. So are the hexcrawl, moral, fatigue, etc. rules culled from OD&D or are they wholly original? If the latter I'm tempted to pick up a copy just out of interest. Have a look at this for more details. linkVery little is "original" per se. What is origianal is pulling together all the scattered threads that contain the information. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 30, 2015 19:10:15 GMT -6
Duh, found it. That should teach me to look before asking (should, but won't).  |
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Post by Mike on Dec 30, 2015 20:32:07 GMT -6
Aldarron, can you expand on "treasure as prize"?
I've been giving XP for "trophy" treasures rather than gold pieces - I thought it was my invention until I stumbled across it in Lamentations... Is Prize treasure similar?
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Post by cadriel on Dec 31, 2015 8:20:21 GMT -6
Ouch. I'm sorry you don't like the organization Wayne, but I'm not sure that's quite a fair assessment. Generally, the format followed the OGL source model. The topic order by chapter is really quite straghtforward. In any case there is an index that makes quick look up of any of the usual specific info needs pretty easy. However the book is truly not intended for beginners and so isn't very beginner friendly. It's aimed at experienced adults. I'm sorry if that comes off as uncharitable, but I honestly had problems finding things as I was looking through the book to discuss some of its ideas, even when I had already encountered them in the book. As far as organization goes, if you handed the book to a player and said they had to make a PC for a game an hour from now, I'm not at all confident that they'd be able to get to everything. Once they realize chapter 1 is for the referee, chapters 2 and 3 are straightforward, but after chapter 3 ends on page 41, they next have to go to page 60 to find the equipment list, and then page 77 to find the weapons and armor that their character can use. Then they have to go all the way to page 130 for their saving throws. Whereas, with OD&D I just have to give them Men & Magic and they don't need to skip through 20 pages of rules to find the next thing they should do. Or, in another example, the appendix on monsters (not sure why this was an appendix and not a chapter) reproduces a weakness of the OD&D booklets by including monster stats in one large table separate from their descriptions. The problem is compounded because the table goes across two pages without the header repeating, so if you're looking at True Trolls, for instance, you have to flip back to the previous page - even harder in PDF. Saying that it's not for beginners doesn't really help, unfortunately. Game books are works that have to be referenced quickly and in a social environment. I can deal with OD&D's organizational weaknesses because I've spent years reading and gaming with the booklets and have a solid memory of where most of the rules I want to use are going to be found. I'm not going to spend a comparable amount of time with Champions of ZED to learn its ins and outs. Delving Deeper is closer, but my problems with Swords & Wizardry and with Champions of ZED are almost direct opposites. I like how S&W presents a streamlined character creation and combat section, but I think it's very weak as far as non-combat procedures and treasure generation. Those areas are the strengths of CoZ, in my opinion, so it would be more of a case of merging the better parts of the two clones. (And also fixing the S&W numbers, such as experience points and so on, to match CoZ.) I may actually fiddle with that at some point; both rule sets are Open Game Content and the RTF of S&W Whitebox is available. |
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Post by aldarron on Dec 31, 2015 10:08:52 GMT -6
Ouch. I'm sorry you don't like the organization Wayne, but I'm not sure that's quite a fair assessment. Generally, the format followed the OGL source model. The topic order by chapter is really quite straghtforward. In any case there is an index that makes quick look up of any of the usual specific info needs pretty easy. However the book is truly not intended for beginners and so isn't very beginner friendly. It's aimed at experienced adults. I'm sorry if that comes off as uncharitable, but I honestly had problems finding things as I was looking through the book to discuss some of its ideas, even when I had already encountered them in the book. No worries, I appreciate the honesty. As far as organization goes, if you handed the book to a player and said they had to make a PC for a game an hour from now, I'm not at all confident that they'd be able to get to everything. Once they realize chapter 1 is for the referee, chapters 2 and 3 are straightforward, but after chapter 3 ends on page 41, they next have to go to page 60 to find the equipment list, and then page 77 to find the weapons and armor that their character can use. Then they have to go all the way to page 130 for their saving throws. Whereas, with OD&D I just have to give them Men & Magic and they don't need to skip through 20 pages of rules to find the next thing they should do. Sounds like we've a difference in design philosophy. I would never simply hand a rulebook to the players, expecting it to serve as a guide for players to design characters. It's the referee's job to guide players during character creation, IMHO, and to generally keep the rule book out of the players hands. Both Arneson and Gygax, (but perhaps especially Arneson) preferred to keep their players in the dark about the rules and CoZ adhere's to that philosophy. CoZ is a Referee's book. The only time players should be looking at it is to check a spell description or something of that nature. (and actually for spells I have the Book of Elder magic as a separate product) Personally, one of the things I think "modern" play suffers most from, is that so much game time is taken up with "rules talk" instead of immersive play. Or, in another example, the appendix on monsters (not sure why this was an appendix and not a chapter) reproduces a weakness of the OD&D booklets by including monster stats in one large table separate from their descriptions. The problem is compounded because the table goes across two pages without the header repeating, so if you're looking at True Trolls, for instance, you have to flip back to the previous page - even harder in PDF. Actually, I considered not including the monsters at all. They aren't important. What referee doesn't have a favorite monster manual? Who doesn't alter the monsters to suit? Who really needs yet another list of monsters? They made it in to the appendix only because there are some interesting details I dug up over the years - especially regarding dragons - and Just in case somebody wanted to run a game and only had the CoZ book, they would at least have a few monster choices. Even so it is an abbreviated list. You are right about the table issue - perhaps that can be addressed at some point. Delving Deeper is closer, but my problems with Swords & Wizardry and with Champions of ZED are almost direct opposites. I like how S&W presents a streamlined character creation and combat section, but I think it's very weak as far as non-combat procedures and treasure generation. Those areas are the strengths of CoZ, in my opinion, so it would be more of a case of merging the better parts of the two clones. (And also fixing the S&W numbers, such as experience points and so on, to match CoZ.) I may actually fiddle with that at some point; both rule sets are Open Game Content and the RTF of S&W Whitebox is available. That would be interesting to see. If you decide you really want to, let me know and I can hook you up with some edit friendly files. |
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Post by aldarron on Dec 31, 2015 10:23:55 GMT -6
Aldarron, can you expand on "treasure as prize"? I've been giving XP for "trophy" treasures rather than gold pieces - I thought it was my invention until I stumbled across it in Lamentations... Is Prize treasure similar? Well, there's a lot on this Mike. In brief, way back in '71 or so, surviving a Blackmoor adventure with the prize of a magic sword was how a character leveled up. Arneson expanded the idea by awarding points for prizes won, spells cast, and monsters killed. You see much the same idea of prizes in the Dungeon boardgame, developed by Blackmoor player Dave Megarry. While the 3lbb's are a little vague about it for D&D, the OD&D FAQ suggests various XP amounts for magic items. Here's the linkSo in my own game I've gone back to a simpler system of 1 hp melee damage inflicted = 1 hp of XP gained, and I don't give out XP for GP - except for clerics and MU who spend the GP in class appropriate ways. |
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Post by derv on Dec 31, 2015 16:39:20 GMT -6
Any chance you'll be offering a softcover option through DriveThru aldarron? I'm an odd ball that actually likes paperbacks for portability and affordability. |
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Post by aldarron on Jan 1, 2016 15:13:53 GMT -6
Any chance you'll be offering a softcover option through DriveThru aldarron? I'm an odd ball that actually likes paperbacks for portability and affordability. Hmmm, well, if I did it would have to be perfect bound because of the size, and I doubt it would be a whole lot cheaper. As is, the hardback is only $22, and at 7 * 10" it's pretty portable. That said I have no problem with setting up a paperback version if it looked like there was enough interest. |
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Post by derv on Jan 1, 2016 20:11:53 GMT -6
I know many prefer hardcovers, so I may be standing alone on this one. I like to be able to (gently) fold my books and stuff them into my lunch box or daypack. The only thing I prefer hardbacks in are reference books that sit on my shelf and get dusty until I need them.
Typically, I find softcovers 25-30% cheaper then hardcovers. It varies by the publisher and how they structure their pricing, though. I'd most likely buy the softcover with pdf, if that matters any.
Overall, I'm more interested in what you have developed through your research of Blackmoor and Dalluhn. So, I'm not likely to actually use it in play, at least whole cloth. That makes it harder for me to justify the purchase. But, I'll probably pick it up at some point even if you don't do a softcover.
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Post by Mike on Jan 4, 2016 1:11:12 GMT -6
I know many prefer hardcovers, so I may be standing alone on this one. I like to be able to (gently) fold my books and stuff them into my lunch box or daypack. The only thing I prefer hardbacks in are reference books that sit on my shelf and get dusty until I need them. Typically, I find softcovers 25-30% cheaper then hardcovers. It varies by the publisher and how they structure their pricing, though. I'd most likely buy the softcover with pdf, if that matters any. Overall, I'm more interested in what you have developed through your research of Blackmoor and Dalluhn. So, I'm not likely to actually use it in play, at least whole cloth. That makes it harder for me to justify the purchase. But, I'll probably pick it up at some point even if you don't do a softcover. Hard covers are great if the binding is stitched and glued. If it's just glued or "perfect bound" it actually has a shorter life expectancy than the same paperback as the rigid cover and spine puts additional stress on the binding. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 16:17:23 GMT -6
Champions of ZED: Zero Edition Dungeoneering is an excellent and well written game. Are any supplements in the works?
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Post by aldarron on Jun 20, 2017 8:29:39 GMT -6
Champions of ZED: Zero Edition Dungeoneering is an excellent and well written game. Are any supplements in the works? Thanks Much Sam&Sol. I have this 12 level dungeon that's been perking along for years now. It's all keyed and so forth but the maps need to be redrawn and the room descriptions written. Eventually that will come out. I don't plan to ever do a whole lot of supplements etc. because I figure there is already sooooo much stuff available that can be easily adapted. Of course there is already the Book of Elder Magic and Gerald Seypura's Mines of Wexham available on Drive-Thru. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 17:30:19 GMT -6
Champions of ZED: Zero Edition Dungeoneering is an excellent and well written game. Are any supplements in the works? Thanks Much Sam&Sol. I have this 12 level dungeon that's been perking along for years now. It's all keyed and so forth but the maps need to be redrawn and the room descriptions written. Eventually that will come out. I don't plan to ever do a whole lot of supplements etc. because I figure there is already sooooo much stuff available that can be easily adapted. Of course there is already the Book of Elder Magic and Gerald Seypura's Mines of Wexham available on Drive-Thru. Thanks! From the number of different sources you used for this game, I thought you might have a huge amount of alternate rules on a whole plethora of different things. |
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Post by multiarms on Jun 6, 2022 20:45:49 GMT -6
Sorry to necro after a few years... is CoZ still available anywhere in print?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2022 6:42:49 GMT -6
Sorry to necro after a few years... is CoZ still available anywhere in print? I believe it's included in the Tonisburg book, which seems a bit pricey for my tastes. |
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Post by aldarron on Dec 2, 2022 19:15:43 GMT -6
Sorry to necro after a few years... is CoZ still available anywhere in print? I believe it's included in the Tonisburg book, which seems a bit pricey for my tastes. Righto The "Champions" ZED rules have run their course, I think, and with Tonisborg out, I pulled it from the store. The ZED rules in Tonisborg have a much cleaner combat system than the CM derived rules in Champions, otherwise the rules are much the same with improvements here and there. The Tonisborg ZED rules lack all the wilderness stuff that featured in Champions of ZED, but that stuff will eventually come out in the someday-to-be-released Egg of Coot campaign book. I do still have a box or two of the original print run though so if you want one PM me. |
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Post by Bastet1002 on Dec 2, 2022 22:30:32 GMT -6
Where are the Toniborg ZED rules sold? Not on DriveThru. On Lulu or Ichio?
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Post by blindaudelay on Nov 20, 2023 20:28:00 GMT -6
Where are the Toniborg ZED rules sold? Not on DriveThru. On Lulu or Ichio? You can buy the Tonisborg book on Amazon or via Fellowship of the Thing. Here: www.tfott.com/category/books |
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Post by stevemitchell on Nov 20, 2023 20:34:30 GMT -6
Would love to see the Tonigborg ZED rules available in a standalone booklet, with a larger typeface.
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Post by blindaudelay on Nov 21, 2023 19:25:17 GMT -6
Would love to see the Tonigborg ZED rules available in a standalone booklet, with a larger typeface. I'd snag that for sure. The Tonisborg edition is missing some of the wilderness rules, though, from what I've read about it online. |
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Post by blindaudelay on Dec 21, 2023 8:58:13 GMT -6
I believe it's included in the Tonisburg book, which seems a bit pricey for my tastes. Righto The "Champions" ZED rules have run their course, I think, and with Tonisborg out, I pulled it from the store. The ZED rules in Tonisborg have a much cleaner combat system than the CM derived rules in Champions, otherwise the rules are much the same with improvements here and there. The Tonisborg ZED rules lack all the wilderness stuff that featured in Champions of ZED, but that stuff will eventually come out in the someday-to-be-released Egg of Coot campaign book. I do still have a box or two of the original print run though so if you want one PM me. I would love to hear more about this Egg of Coot campaign book. The Tonisborg rules are cool, but I’d love to see what a fuller rule set would look like! |
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