Why Do Magic-Users Go Adventuring?

[delverinthedark]

...Or, rather, what makes the Magic-User suited to being an adventurer?

This question is less applicable to higher-level Magic-Users with a bevy of spells and perhaps magical protection...but what's a guy or gal with no real combat training, no armor, a frail body, and one fairly rinky-dink arcane effect doing plunging into a dungeon where everything wants to kill him or her?

Is it because magical knowledge and power is ONLY to be found in such places and thus entering them is the only way for the Magic-User to cultivate their craft? If so, that has heavy implications for the world in which a game featuring Magic-Users takes place. Or is it perhaps that, like Gandalf, the nature of the power that Magic-Users are granted, however slight, compels them to use that power in the service of people? Or...HERESY!...are Magic-Users early in their career not really adventurers at all, but rather more akin to torchbearers and hirelings, albeit ones with more specialized knowledge and skills (Brother Maynard, you're our scholar...)?

[mindcontrolsquid]

I always imagined that magic-users adventure for much the same reason as any other class of adventurer: for gold, fame, fancy magic items, etc. Dungeons and other dangerous locales more often than not are places where magical power tends to flock, so there is something to the notion that magic-users must adventure in such places in order to improve their skills. And there is the very reasonable conclusion that magic-users must practice their craft, often plunging themselves into dangerous situations, in order to hone their skills and become the high-level wizards with the "bevy of spells" of which you speak.

And really, no magic-user worth their spellbook would venture into some forgotten crypt or catacomb without at least a couple of meat-shields to stand in front of them and hold back the oncoming rush of orcs, ogres, and Crom-knows-what-else while they chant their spells, am I right?

(I must admit that I do enjoy the idea of low-level magic-users serving as common hirelings. "Paying their dues," as it were, in a very realistic way, sort of like magical interns.)

[Porphyre]

Also, in OD&D, there is several magical items that do have powers not replicated by spells (less so in another later editions), and the "the whole plethora of enchanted items [that] lies at the magic-users beck and call", is probably as much important in the nature of the MU class than the spells and spellbooks (note the wording "magic-user" is more than "spell caster").

But where can you find such magical items when you aren' wise anough to craft them yourself and there is no "magical emporium" at the street's corner?
And the low level Medium dosn't have the option to Geas some buch of adventurers to do the job for him.

[scottenkainen]

You've graduated from an expensive magic school and paid off your student debt and spellbook costs (the DMG suggests these are "gifted" to the students by their mentors, but that seems awfully convenient) through apprenticeship work. Now you can finally (finally!) cast a spell, but find that the local militia already has all the spellcasters they can afford to pay and there are no local businesses hiring magic-users. What's a poor novice magic-user to do but build himself a reputation for being powerful?

I've never had any trouble imagining why magic-users would go adventuring. I find the inverse question more interesting -- why do Magic-Users ever retire? Why do they lock themselves away in towers and make magic items, particularly ones they can't themselves use, at their own cost, when they can keep looting dungeons and get more magic items (and make money instead of spending it)? I recently posited in my Verbobonc Campaign that high level magic-users feel a mysterious compulsion to do so that they cannot fight (or at least the NPC ones can't).

[oldkat]

My gut response flippant reply would have to be: because the Fantasy Supplement chapter of CM created glass cannons that erradicated the need for platoons/regiments of fighting men to have to stuff themselves into dungeon chambers and crawl down dungeon corridors. But, it's more than that. Medieval warring, up to the FS, was (correct me someone if I'm wrong, but) more or less historical reinactments of actual battles; these of course led to fictional wars amongst the players, based on piece placement (kind of like chess, if one could arrange where everyone fit), as kind of tournament challenges with one another, member vs. member, club vs. club. At least that's the picture painted in my pee brain. After FS, people began imagining war scenarios beyond the restrictive box of swiss troops and mongol lancers.

We can thank Dave and Gary for this.

[cadriel]

In a megadungeon campaign, a fifth level magic-user should be pretty much the best solo character you can think of.

The magic-user preps the day before the dungeon expedition, casting Invisibility on himself. Then on the day of the adventure he casts Infravision, letting him see in the dark, and prepares the following spells: Sleep, Charm Person, ESP, and Phantasmal Forces. He casts ESP when he goes down to the fifth level, since it only lasts 12 turns. Then he uses those 12 turns to go through the level, detecting which rooms have monsters (via ESP) and avoiding them. In the empty rooms he looks for treasure.

Our magic-user is actually looking for very specific treasure: he wants gold pieces, but primarily gems and jewelry. (This is based on page 7 of The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures.) On the fifth level he'll get 1d6 pieces of jewelry in 20% of treasure rooms. 1/9 rooms will have no monster (4 in 6 chance) and treasure (1 in 6 chance). So one out of every forty-five rooms should have jewelry and no monsters. That jewelry has an average value of 11,935 GP - nearly enough for a M-U to get from fifth to sixth level. It only takes a good gem find or some gold pieces to make up the difference. This may take three or four trips down, but will be worth it as it's a low-risk operation.

At sixth level, he can use both Infravision (lasting all day) and Clairvoyance (12 turns), which means he can go in 60 foot increments scanning the entire sixth dungeon level for treasure. At seventh level, Dimension Door should make him pretty much able to get out of any jam he may find himself in. Also, he should be finding some pretty nice magic items by now.

The magic-user should be able to solo straight from fifth to twelfth level in a megadungeon, as long as it's populated using the chart on page 7 of U&WA. Ironically my plan generally avoids using Fireball and Lightning Bolt, which are often considered the go-to spells as if the magic-user was artillery. But in a 1 GP = 1 XP campaign, Clairvoyance is a more powerful spell by far.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Nov 17, 2015 16:23:40 GMT -6 cadriel said:

In a megadungeon campaign, a fifth level magic-user should be pretty much the best solo character you can think of.

Agreed; after all, Gandalf was only a fifth-level magic-user. Of course, getting to fifth level is the real challenge, necessitating the use of men-at-arms to take hits. It also occurs to me that magic-users themselves are likely cognizant of the inherent risks of their profession. Sure, they are relatively frail, completely unarmored, and essentially giant bulls-eyes for monsters as soon as (or perhaps even before) they cast a single spell. However, I imagine that the promise of incredible magical powers and treasure prove tempting enough that low-level magic-users will take those risks and go through the rigors of only a single casting per day just for the chance to become truly powerful.

[Mike]

Load up on scrolls. At a hundred gold a pop, even the level one MU kicks butt.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Nov 17, 2015 21:09:39 GMT -6 Mike said:

Load up on scrolls. At a hundred gold a pop, even the level one MU kicks butt.

Assuming you can find a scroll vendor. That's one of the things I didn't like about some later editions: they seemed to operate under the assumption that towns and cities were strewn with magic item vendors that had scrolls and such readily for purchase (although I must admit it did help to solve the issue of players having too much gold on hand...). The way I see it, in OD&D, magic items are found, not purchased. And usually they can be found in dungeon locales...so that seems to work out as a means of motivating magic-users to go adventuring, if nothing else.

[howandwhy99]

Nov 17, 2015 12:14:21 GMT -6 delverinthedark said:

...Or, rather, what makes the Magic-User suited to being an adventurer?

Magic-Users have two paths, adventure or study. Study is really the NPC path, but NPCs can adventure too. PC study is caught up in class level training which can only be advanced so far as the character has experience (XP). (We play that you can train up into the next level, so advancement can happen "on the road" when enough XP is gained, but any training beyond that amount is going over the same ground - wasted time).

Learned magic via study, the NPC route is tedious with long hours of repeated trial and error testing and retesting to discover the eldritch secrets of the universe. It is slow and laborious way, but relatively safe compared to option 2. Study is like any actual research lab today. It costs a great deal to maintain, requires a continually stocked laboratory, assistance, and years upon years of time.

Adventuring on the other hand is relatively quick. It has the chance of testing spells and magic item effects in wildly unusual situations allowing for far more varied conditions to learn how magic actually works. Experience can be gained very quickly. So too can acquisition of very powerful magic items, places, and access to other M-Us unique magical spells. None of that happens in the NPC's lab. (But neither are they engaged in near suicidal behavior).

Is it because magical knowledge and power is ONLY to be found in such places and thus entering them is the only way for the Magic-User to cultivate their craft?

Dungeons aren't the only place to find magic. More powerful magic is found in the areas of the world rated as higher in level for magic. (That's sort of a truism as the ratings are only given after the fact). However, higher level magic also means higher level difficulty as a challenge. To gain XP for magic use, the Magic-User/Player must do things to demonstrate their understanding of the magic's underlying design. The more powerful the magic, the more difficult the design to master.

This is magic system difficulty, not combat, thieving, or clericism. Areas of the world/dungeon are rated by all 4, but most areas in the world are similarly powered across all the classes. I.e. a 1st level dungeon has 1st level combat challenges as well as magic, cleric, and thief challenges (before variation). All classes have some ability in all the other classes abilities, so they aren't helpless when pressed into acting outside their class. But if a party of adventurers were all Magic-Users (M-U only campaign?), they would want to avoid and evade encounters that aren't suited to their class.

[Deleted]

Crom's hairy nutsack.

Learn combined arms fighting.

[bycrom]

Here's why, by Crom!

castlegreyhawk.blogspot.ca/2013/05/page-34.html

castlegreyhawk.blogspot.ca/2013/05/page-35.html

P.S. - For the interesting comment regarding the 5th level solo m-u in a megadungeon: How does he navigate the nefarious and creatively malevolent DM placed traps alone? It's like a fly in his soup I tells ya.

[Mike]

Nov 17, 2015 21:24:21 GMT -6 mindcontrolsquid said:

Nov 17, 2015 21:09:39 GMT -6 Mike said:

Load up on scrolls. At a hundred gold a pop, even the level one MU kicks butt.

Assuming you can find a scroll vendor. That's one of the things I didn't like about some later editions: they seemed to operate under the assumption that towns and cities were strewn with magic item vendors that had scrolls and such readily for purchase (although I must admit it did help to solve the issue of players having too much gold on hand...). The way I see it, in OD&D, magic items are found, not purchased. And usually they can be found in dungeon locales...so that seems to work out as a means of motivating magic-users to go adventuring, if nothing else.

In OD&D you make your own. No Scroll vendor required. 100 gp and one week's work. Knock 'em up whilst your comrades are healing.

[mindcontrolsquid]

I thought that only magic-users of Wizard status or above were able to create magical items on their own, including scrolls? At least that's what I think it says in the 3LBBs, anyway. Lesser magic-users would have to scrounge about for magical paraphernalia of their own.

"Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical." (M&M pg. 6; emphasis mine)

[delverinthedark]

Nov 17, 2015 22:25:28 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Crom's hairy nutsack.

Learn combined arms fighting.

I can understand how a Magic-User, the classic "glass cannon," operates tactically in a unit of combined arms (surrounding the glass cannon with a burly infantry of Fighting Men). I suppose what's bothering me is how far the martial conception of the Magic-User should extend. D&D is a game of skirmishing, to be sure, but to think of the Magic-User as simply artillery by another means in such situations...well, it's true to the tradition of the game, but it doesn't seem to sit well in an archetypical sense with me. But if a Magic-User becomes only a repository of "utility" kinds of spells, is the Magic-User still suitable as a PC class or do they become better interpreted as sages or allies that PCs can turn to for aid? Are spells like Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt, Fireball ABSOLUTELY essential to the playability of Magic-Users? Would a Magic-User without the ability to directly dish out damage in combat be fun to play (discounting indirect offensive methods like "Sleep" and "Charm Person," not to mention creative usage of spells not deliberately designed for battle)? And if we DO accept Magic Missiles, Lightning Bolts, Fireballs, etc., doesn't that rather irrevocably change the archetype of the Magic-User for ALL Magic-Users in the world?

I can see now that my original post didn't really articulate the issue I'm struggling with. Maybe it comes down to a personal distaste for "blasting" spells (which seem out of place in settings inspired by pre-"fantasy literature" epic poetry and fairy tales, which are my favorite fonts of inspiration) and a sense of wielders of magic as more "remote" rather than "adventurous" figures also derived from such sources.  Perhaps this impetus for why I asked the question in the first place is more important than the question itself...

[mindcontrolsquid]

Nov 18, 2015 0:04:31 GMT -6 delverinthedark said:

Nov 17, 2015 22:25:28 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Crom's hairy nutsack.

Learn combined arms fighting.

I can understand how a Magic-User, the classic "glass cannon," operates tactically in a unit of combined arms (surrounding the glass cannon with a burly infantry of Fighting Men). I suppose what's bothering me is how far the martial conception of the Magic-User should extend. D&D is a game of skirmishing, to be sure, but to think of the Magic-User as simply artillery by another means in such situations...well, it's true to the tradition of the game, but it doesn't seem to sit well in an archetypical sense with me. But if a Magic-User becomes only a repository of "utility" kinds of spells, is the Magic-User still suitable as a PC class or do they become better interpreted as sages or allies that PCs can turn to for aid? Are spells like Magic Missile, Lightning Bolt, Fireball ABSOLUTELY essential to the playability of Magic-Users? Would a Magic-User without the ability to directly dish out damage in combat be fun to play (discounting indirect offensive methods like "Sleep" and "Charm Person," not to mention creative usage of spells not deliberately designed for battle)? And if we DO accept Magic Missiles, Lightning Bolts, Fireballs, etc., doesn't that rather irrevocably change the archetype of the Magic-User for ALL Magic-Users in the world?

I can see now that my original post didn't really articulate the issue I'm struggling with. Maybe it comes down to a personal distaste for "blasting" spells (which seem out of place in settings inspired by pre-"fantasy literature" epic poetry and fairy tales, which are my favorite fonts of inspiration) and a sense of wielders of magic as more "remote" rather than "adventurous" figures also derived from such sources.  Perhaps this impetus for why I asked the question in the first place is more important than the question itself...

Magic-Users might have been conceived of as magical "artillery" in a wargame setting like Chainmail, but I don't believe that assumption necessarily holds true for OD&D. In my opinion, if you're playing a magic-user as a purely "blasting"-type spellcaster, you're doing it wrong. Any idiot with a big enough stick of wood can deal damage. Damage isn't a big deal, even in an area of effect. It's the subtler magics, the manipulation of minds, the ability to walk invisibly through the darkness and illuminate it like the brightest daylight, the power to read men's minds, to loose oneself from the bounds of gravity and space; all these and much more is what gives magic-users their efficacy. Certainly a magic-user may endeavor to concentrate on the more overt use of their magics, and indeed damage-dealing spells have their place in the magic-user's repertoire of abilities. But it is only that: an aspect of their abilities which does not dominate the whole. They're a Swiss army knife: sometimes you need a sharp knife to cut something, but other times you'll need a corkscrew to open a wine bottle or a file to trim your nails. The true magic-user as I conceive of them grows powerful enough (and learns to be prepared enough) to have the right tool for the right job.

[delverinthedark]

What you say most certainly holds true, mindcontrolsquid. Indeed, part of the appeal of the "fire and forget" magic system for me is that it encourages the use of subtler magics as opposed to "blasting" magics, which one probably won't have too many of in a day to make any real use of. But does our conception of the role of the Magic-User in the broader game world change if we don't think of them as artillery...and especially if we think of magic as something rare and truly, well, magical?

I must say, though, mindcontrolsquid, you've made a very eloquent case for the place of the Magic-User amongst the ranks of those who go forth into the wilds.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Nov 18, 2015 1:08:33 GMT -6 delverinthedark said:

But does our conception of the role of the Magic-User in the broader game world change if we don't think of them as artillery...and especially if we think of magic as something rare and truly, well, magical?

If I understand you correctly, you're asking about how magic should "feel" in the context of a game, about its scarcity and how others react to it. This is something that is left as an exercise to the individual referee, and how magic pertains to the particular setting they are using for their game. I can only speak for myself, but I haven't thought of magic-users as "artillery" for many years (my players might disagree, given what I've seen about their usage of magic). Really it depends very much on how you or your players utilize magic-users and how the rest of the world reacts to them. The various quirky rules which govern magic usage certainly have a "magical" feel to them; indeed, it is my understanding that this is the reason why Vancian magic was used in the system in the first place, as it presents a "weirder" and more special mode of utilizing magical forces rather than some numerical resource or point-based system.

Perhaps in your particular game NPC magic-users could be few in number and generally high-level to instill a great sense of awe in the working of their magic. Indeed, this is very nearly the case in terms of the game's mechanics concerning enemy generation. Perhaps magic-users are not so much scarce as they are difficult to locate (as individuals with access to invisibility or hallucinatory terrain would be, I imagine). Perhaps magic is secretive and afforded only to a privileged few in your game, thus making it something of an occasion when even a low-level magic-user arrives on the scene. Think about what makes magic-users "magical" to you and put that to use in a game context; there are many more possibilities.

[Deleted]

Nov 17, 2015 23:49:18 GMT -6 Mike said:

Nov 17, 2015 21:24:21 GMT -6 mindcontrolsquid said:

Assuming you can find a scroll vendor. That's one of the things I didn't like about some later editions: they seemed to operate under the assumption that towns and cities were strewn with magic item vendors that had scrolls and such readily for purchase (although I must admit it did help to solve the issue of players having too much gold on hand...). The way I see it, in OD&D, magic items are found, not purchased. And usually they can be found in dungeon locales...so that seems to work out as a means of motivating magic-users to go adventuring, if nothing else.

In OD&D you make your own. No Scroll vendor required. 100 gp and one week's work. Knock 'em up whilst your comrades are healing.

Only Wizards (11th level and higher) can do that.

[Elphilm]

Jack Vance said:

[T]he lore was dispersed and forgotten, until now, at this dim time, with the sun dark, wilderness obscuring Ascolais, and the white city Kaiin half in ruins, only a few more than a hundred spells remained to the knowledge of man. Of these, Mazirian had access to seventy-three, and gradually, by stratagem and negotiation, was securing the others.

Ancient ruins are where the spells and magic items are. Even magical research is so costly that if you want to accomplish anything with it, you need to band with a bunch of other lunatics who are willing to risk life and limb for loot.

I really dislike the notion of "wizard schools" where benevolent Dumbledore figures voluntarily teach random scrubs their spells. I prefer a world where magic-users are mostly self-taught crazies living on the fringes of society, jealously guarding the scraps of ancient knowledge that they have managed to cobble together on their own.

[delverinthedark]

Nov 18, 2015 10:08:14 GMT -6 Elphilm said:

Jack Vance said:

[T]he lore was dispersed and forgotten, until now, at this dim time, with the sun dark, wilderness obscuring Ascolais, and the white city Kaiin half in ruins, only a few more than a hundred spells remained to the knowledge of man. Of these, Mazirian had access to seventy-three, and gradually, by stratagem and negotiation, was securing the others.

Ancient ruins are where the spells and magic items are. Even magical research is so costly that if you want to accomplish anything with it, you need to band with a bunch of other lunatics who are willing to risk life and limb for loot.

I really dislike the notion of "wizard schools" where benevolent Dumbledore figures voluntarily teach random scrubs their spells. I prefer a world where magic-users are mostly self-taught crazies living on the fringes of society, jealously guarding the scraps of ancient knowledge that they have managed to cobble together on their own.

It's definitely true that D&D hangs together perfectly if you accept not just the mechanical but also the contextual elements of magic in Vance's Dying Earth. But if D&D is a game "engaging diverse legendaria," as another thread here would have it, are the implications of Vance's setting the only ones available? Or, as some would have it, do we cease to be playing D&D if we don't use Vancian magic: not in the sense of abandoning the mechanical aspects but abandoning the contextual aspects imported from Vance?

On another note, mindcontrolsquid, you describe the kind of campaign world I favor. If I'm pursuing questions that at time seem stupid and silly, it's only in pursuit of the ideal way to realize such a campaign world by means of D&D, for I believe that D&D as written most definitely implies its own setting, and changing the setting requires changing, adding, or eliminating rules and roles. Such is the nature, to me, of the toolbox that Gary, Dave and all the other saints who witnessed the birth of this new extension of the gaming hobby bequeathed us.

[Stormcrow]

I don't think it's the case that in the D&D world the only way to become a Wizard is to go on adventures. This is just the way player-characters want to do it.

Or would you rather play out the days of a Medium studying a book in your master's tower?

The game assumes that your character wants to go on adventures. It also assumes he blows through more money every month the more experienced he becomes, whether the player wants to control costs or not. Your character is not entirely under your own control in these respects.

[howandwhy99]

Nov 18, 2015 0:04:31 GMT -6 delverinthedark said:

I can see now that my original post didn't really articulate the issue I'm struggling with. Maybe it comes down to a personal distaste for "blasting" spells (which seem out of place in settings inspired by pre-"fantasy literature" epic poetry and fairy tales, which are my favorite fonts of inspiration) and a sense of wielders of magic as more "remote" rather than "adventurous" figures also derived from such sources.  Perhaps this impetus for why I asked the question in the first place is more important than the question itself...

Could you describe the behavior of the magic-users you seek. All the things you want to have. Any way you can.

Maybe your M-U idea is really not how the class or class system are designed to function?
Maybe your conception is only one style of playing the class in a larger scope?
Maybe we can suggest designs which support more closely what you are looking for?

Remember, this is a game, so it is necessarily about players learning the game design and improving within it to achieve objectives. That may not be what you want either however. Your conceptions of what fantasy wizards do all day may not fit that. Maybe they aren't adventurers at all? If not, how then do they learn to work with the other players/classes on shared endeavors?

[howandwhy99]

PC Demographics to some degree are already built into the game. 3e did this somewhat. If you rate areas of the whole world like dungeon levels, then there will be 10th level areas and 1st level areas (of all class and monster types). But the former higher ratings will be far, far rarer than the latter. Because they had to advance to that state.

[Mike]

Nov 18, 2015 9:29:44 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Nov 17, 2015 23:49:18 GMT -6 Mike said:

In OD&D you make your own. No Scroll vendor required. 100 gp and one week's work. Knock 'em up whilst your comrades are healing.

Only Wizards (11th level and higher) can do that.

I'm not seeing that in Men and Magic?

[Porphyre]

Nov 19, 2015 2:16:32 GMT -6 Mike said:

Nov 18, 2015 9:29:44 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Only Wizards (11th level and higher) can do that.

I'm not seeing that in Men and Magic?

Page 6 : "Wizards and above  may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls,  and just about anything else magical."

Note that it implies that you actually can buy scrolls (but you need to find a Wizard willing to sell) 

[Deleted]

And their time doesn't come cheap. For sale figure twice the material cost, plus at least a couple hundred gold per week for their time, minimum.

[Deleted]

Per page 6, a scroll is 100 GP plus 1 week per spell level. So a scroll of a single first level spell takes a week and costs 100 GP.

IF a Wizard sells such a thing, he would charge a minimum of 400 GP. A second level spell is 200 GP and 2 weeks, so it would be at least 800 GP.

Wizards have better things to do with their time than make scrolls and trinkets to sell to various wandering dingleberries.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Nov 19, 2015 8:59:16 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

And their time doesn't come cheap. For sale figure twice the material cost, plus at least a couple hundred gold per week for their time, minimum.

And that's assuming that you can convince them to do it for you at all. I imagine that wizards with access to mind-control and elemental summoning have better things to do with their time than crank out scrolls for some low-level dabbler.

Edit: Gronan beat me to it, I see...

[Porphyre]

Things get even worse if you start using the % roll to know spell from Greyhawk and the "spells from scrolls can be put in the spellbook" rules.
In that case, a Wizard selling a scroll to a fellow Magic-user couls as well be selling one of his own precious spells !