Post by howandwhy99 on Oct 17, 2015 14:48:05 GMT -6
This is a split thread from here: Wilderlands hex size too small or just right?
(just in case anyone else wants to chime in)
(just in case anyone else wants to chime in)
howandwhy99
I've been using a 3 field system for my Greyhawk campaign, but by acre not square mile. 1 acre can feed 1 adult per year and all that. 61 acres in a square mile. I've had difficulty figuring out what ratios of urban populations can be supported by surrounding food supplies. I want to go with more than 10%, but I think that's awfully high by historical numbers. On the other hand, 50,000 people in a city I can believe, but 500,000 total in the while area outsizes any published campaign setting numbers I know.
--SNIP
I guess I'm looking for ideas on how much food can be grown by 1 farm family or manor house on a plowed field per year (including climate and seasons?). And how much that yields so other people have time enough to... do other things. 10% of a population not farming seemed very low for to allow for every other NPC class. And the populations are so large for a fantasy game where travel is slow and not much happens in civilized rural lands.
I've been using a 3 field system for my Greyhawk campaign, but by acre not square mile. 1 acre can feed 1 adult per year and all that. 61 acres in a square mile. I've had difficulty figuring out what ratios of urban populations can be supported by surrounding food supplies. I want to go with more than 10%, but I think that's awfully high by historical numbers. On the other hand, 50,000 people in a city I can believe, but 500,000 total in the while area outsizes any published campaign setting numbers I know.
--SNIP
I guess I'm looking for ideas on how much food can be grown by 1 farm family or manor house on a plowed field per year (including climate and seasons?). And how much that yields so other people have time enough to... do other things. 10% of a population not farming seemed very low for to allow for every other NPC class. And the populations are so large for a fantasy game where travel is slow and not much happens in civilized rural lands.
Starbeard
Partly it depends on what type of food is being grown, what farm methods are in use, and any number of other factors like climate, legal systems, trade routes, etc.
Since Russell's time it's been generally taken that medieval Europe averaged an 'urban index' of 5% (that is, 5% of a given region's population lived and worked in an urban setting). As towns became bigger the urban index didn't necessarily become bigger: the whole population just got bigger. As farming technologies advanced, the sustainable UI increased. However, Chaucerian England supposedly had a much lower UI (I think he figured something like 4-4.5%), with smaller cities and nobles who lived quite often in the countryside. Regions of northern and central Italy, by comparison, sometimes had a UI as high as 10%, because of cramped conditions, fertile fields, and a proliferation of high-traffic trade routes that connected the area to the rest of the world by land and sea. And then there might be laws that artificially force a population to become urbanized, like in Tokugawa Japan, where he estimated some regions to have as high as a 40% UI, which otherwise seems completely unsustainable.
Going with Japan, the farm unit was the chō, which is somewhere just shy of 3 acres. I can't remember exactly where I got the numbers, but in my notes for running L5R I looked up the rice yields per acre/chō in various places during the 18th-19th century (mostly Java and Japan), and then used the average nutritional information for rice to determine how many people could be fed at a subsistence level per chō of farmland. I rounded the ranges to something simple and playable, which was anywhere from 5-30 koku per year, averaging at 10-20 (koku = a theoretical measurement assumed to feed one man per year at a subsistence level). I guess that comes out to an average of 4-6 people fed per acre. Other grains often have lower yields, but then again they also might have different levels of technology for production, or the space to have larger fields per farmer.
There's also the added factor of hunting, fishing, gardening and foraging, which people would do for their own food and to sell. Honestly I have no idea how much that would contribute to the food requirements.
I'm sorry I can't provide anything more definite than that, or with any actual documentation. It was a long time ago I put these figures together for a kingmaker L5R game, and the notes I took have long since disappeared. I do remember reading a couple of different web pages on rice yields before mechanized farming, in Japan and Java in particular, and also reading through a number of J.C. Russell's books for figures.
Partly it depends on what type of food is being grown, what farm methods are in use, and any number of other factors like climate, legal systems, trade routes, etc.
Since Russell's time it's been generally taken that medieval Europe averaged an 'urban index' of 5% (that is, 5% of a given region's population lived and worked in an urban setting). As towns became bigger the urban index didn't necessarily become bigger: the whole population just got bigger. As farming technologies advanced, the sustainable UI increased. However, Chaucerian England supposedly had a much lower UI (I think he figured something like 4-4.5%), with smaller cities and nobles who lived quite often in the countryside. Regions of northern and central Italy, by comparison, sometimes had a UI as high as 10%, because of cramped conditions, fertile fields, and a proliferation of high-traffic trade routes that connected the area to the rest of the world by land and sea. And then there might be laws that artificially force a population to become urbanized, like in Tokugawa Japan, where he estimated some regions to have as high as a 40% UI, which otherwise seems completely unsustainable.
Going with Japan, the farm unit was the chō, which is somewhere just shy of 3 acres. I can't remember exactly where I got the numbers, but in my notes for running L5R I looked up the rice yields per acre/chō in various places during the 18th-19th century (mostly Java and Japan), and then used the average nutritional information for rice to determine how many people could be fed at a subsistence level per chō of farmland. I rounded the ranges to something simple and playable, which was anywhere from 5-30 koku per year, averaging at 10-20 (koku = a theoretical measurement assumed to feed one man per year at a subsistence level). I guess that comes out to an average of 4-6 people fed per acre. Other grains often have lower yields, but then again they also might have different levels of technology for production, or the space to have larger fields per farmer.
There's also the added factor of hunting, fishing, gardening and foraging, which people would do for their own food and to sell. Honestly I have no idea how much that would contribute to the food requirements.
I'm sorry I can't provide anything more definite than that, or with any actual documentation. It was a long time ago I put these figures together for a kingmaker L5R game, and the notes I took have long since disappeared. I do remember reading a couple of different web pages on rice yields before mechanized farming, in Japan and Java in particular, and also reading through a number of J.C. Russell's books for figures.