A Contemplation on Demihuman Level Limits

[mindcontrolsquid]

I realize that there has been a great deal of discussion about demihuman level limits and how to approach them from a gameplay perspective in the past, but this observation is more conceptual than mechanical. Many people are not fond of the level limits as presented in the LBBs; I know that there are a number of referees who do away with the level limits or extend them, or players will simply retire characters and roll up new ones upon reaching the level limit. However, where others see the level limits as inhibitors, I (if you will indulge me momentarily) see opportunities for expansion and world-building.

Let’s examine the framework of gaining levels and, more importantly, experience points as it is presented in the LBBs. Experience is gained via defeating monsters and acquiring treasure (more so the latter than the former), and in this respect one might consider experience points as an abstract measure of the “success” of a character in the sense that they are obtaining “power,” in a sense. For humans in the LBB, this acquisition of “power” translates into a very real sense of political power once they reach the status of Lord, Wizard, or Patriarch/Evil High Priest, allowing them to exercise a greater influence on the world around them in terms of commanding armies, building up baronies, etc. If we were to extrapolate an “in-universe” reason for the lack of human level limits, therefore, it could be argued that humans have an intrinsic never-ending thirst for power, wealth, success, etc., one which is not satiated even once a barony (or church, or wizard tower, or whatever) is established (individual humans differ, obviously, but this is speaking in generalities derived from what is presented in the LBBs).

This brings up the concept of demihumans and their own individual advancements. Are we to assume from the level limits that the demihuman races are somehow not as powerful as human beings, or do not possess the same potential for greatness? I argue that this is not a logical conclusion. From a world-building perspective, it can be surmised that races such as elves, dwarves, hobbits/halflings are obviously inherently not human, and thus cannot be expected to have the same priorities as human beings. If experience is to be viewed as a motivating force for the advancement of a character in general, and if the acquisition of treasure is the primary method by which this advancement occurs, then it stands to reason that demihuman races must then have different motivations for adventuring then human beings. After all, the game does have a “humanocentric” bent in terms of its political system, and it seems odd (to me) to grant authority over human-based political entities to races which would be largely unconcerned with human affairs of state. There is little to be gained from an elf ruling a human community; indeed, one could argue that no elf would be particularly interested, as they would have their own governance to look after.

So where does this leave demihumans who wish to continue adventuring after their level cap? Take, for example, the race most harshly affected by the level cap: the hobbit (or halfling, whichever sounds better). Say that a player rolls up a hobbit character and claws his way through four grueling levels of fighting-man advancement. So here is this hobbit, sitting on 8,000 experience points and wondering what to do with himself. I am here to argue that since they are no longer constrained by the need to acquire experience points through battle or treasure, this hobbit has the freedom to devote himself to any adventuring pursuit he desires, profitable (in a monetary sense) or otherwise. There are quite a number of possibilities:

-He could become a traveler or explorer, a cartographer of sorts mapping out new lands and clearing the way for further exploration or colonization.
-He could become a traveling merchant, fending off danger in order to transport goods across great distances and unfriendly terrain.
-He could establish a shop, guild house, tavern, or any other sort of business and then have to deal with all manner of urban encounters, including political figures, criminal organizations, wealthy nobles, etc.
-He could engage in a military career and rise through the ranks to become a high-ranking soldier or mercenary.

And others besides those mentioned. Players and referees alike can view the level limit as the end of the characters’ “training,” so to speak, before engaging in their interests outside of dungeon-crawling. Alternatively, these same goals can serve as motivations for further dungeon exploration; perhaps the hobbit requires capital to begin their dream business, necessitating a need to raise a great deal of money quickly, such as can be found in a lair or dungeon complex. Perhaps their interests in a town setting could be threatened by nearby monsters which must be dealt with.

My underlying point is that the level limits could, with a little forethought, represent a natural development for demihuman characters, and even the human characters adventuring with them. It gives the players ideas to further their eventual goals (assuming their survival, of course) and the referee material to expand their campaigns in directions they may not have previously devised. Of course, each referee has their own way of handling level limits and I realize my observations are somewhat non-traditional, so I’m curious to see if they have any merit with anyone. I do hope I haven’t rambled on too long…

(As a small aside, if one is to follow with my use of experience points as a measure of “success” in terms of wealth acquisition with regards to use of the Thief class, one could argue that such unbridled avarice and larceny can cause even demihumans to seek ever-greater treasure and loot without any clear end-goal in sight.)

[howandwhy99]

My understanding is level limited demihumans have chosen to play a shorter game. They are going to top out before humans reach their name level. But 4th level Fighter halflings are still the best in halfling lands. I think they could be name level there, gaining benefits and changing focus like a human does during the normal end game.

I agree with you players can keep playing a character if they choose after topping out XP for a class. There is no rule play has to stop after topping out. Other benefits can still be gained of course. Like treasure, knowledge, allies, adventure. And maybe such a demihuman will find a way to increase prime requisite ability scores? I mean, become more human-like and advance 1 or 2 more levels as the AD&D rules suggest? It's a more round about manner to level advancement, but can be fun.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Oct 13, 2015 14:57:03 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

My understanding is level limited demihumans have chosen to play a shorter game.

That is certainly a valid way of looking at it too. Really I think the onus falls upon an agreement between player and referee to determine what direction to take such characters. It would certainly be of consideration in a party of mixed human/demihuman composition at higher levels. Granted, OD&D in general is not particularly concerned with higher-level play, nor does it feel any particular need to enforce a sort of game balance for these situations (nor, for that matter, do I). It all comes down to what players and referees expect out of their game, and there's no right or wrong way to go about it.

[Stormcrow]

The point of level limits is made clear with hobbits.

Hobbits can become no more powerful than Heroes. This isn't because they get special abilities that need to be balanced; it's because as Gygax saw hobbits they could never become more powerful than this. He would have been imagining the four hobbits coming back to the Shire after the War of the Ring; they were Heroes—or at least, Merry and Pippin were. They'd reached the pinnacle of achievement possible by hobbits. Clearly, no hobbit could ever match the sheer warrior-ability of someone like, say, Boromir. Hence, hobbits have a level limit.

Gygax wasn't fond of demi-human characters, and didn't see them as growing to become as capable as the pinnacle of human legends. Elves are magical, but they aren't as magical as Merlin. Dwarves are good fighters, and they even become great Lords, but they don't expand their influence after establishing their small realms. No dwarf could ever match a Conan or an Arthur. So, dwarves and elves get level limits too, at about those levels that Gygax felt their power peaked.

He didn't provide any explanation as to why demi-humans seem to "stop learning." That's not what they're doing. To emulate the sort of sources he drew these characters from, he limited their power to what they have in those sources, according to his own tastes. Tolkien elves are more powerful than men? Yes, but D&D's elves aren't just Tolkien elves; they're also from Medieval literature, Norse legends, and authors like Poul Anderson. Gygax chose those aspects of elves he preferred to use, and wasn't slavish to any one source.

So why level limits? Because it produces the sort of world that Gygax wanted to see in his game. Can you change the limits if you want something different? Yes. Are half-assed solutions like experience penalties or attack ranks a good change to make? Not really. Just remove the limits or set them elsewhere.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2015 15:58:32 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

So why level limits? Because it produces the sort of world that Gygax wanted to see in his game.

The highest level that a non-human NPC has attained in a particular game world is completely independent of the highest level a non-human PC can attain (if, indeed, they ever make it that far). Just because AD&D expanded the level charts to 20 doesn't automatically mean that your game world must include 20th level characters. You could easily have hobbits with no level limits, yet, at the same time, have no hobbits in the game world above 4th level.

This is why the world-building justification for PC level limits doesn't work.

You need to have a reason why this one particular character, whose goals and personality are set by a player, cannot, no matter what he does or how hard he tries, get any better than 4th level (or whatever the maximum level is in your particular edition).

[mindcontrolsquid]

I understand the original purpose of level limits vis a vis Gygax's particular line of reasoning. I don't dispute that; I was simply trying to provide options for the continued play of characters at the limit. A character can, and in some cases must, have more justification for their continued existence than the drive to become more combat-effective.

[Stormcrow]

Oct 13, 2015 16:11:00 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

You need to have a reason why this one particular character, whose goals and personality are set by a player, cannot, no matter what he does or how hard he tries, get any better than 4th level (or whatever the maximum level is in your particular edition).

No, you don't, as demonstrated by Gygax when he published Dungeons & Dragons with level limits.

By choosing to play, say, a hobbit, you are agreeing up front that your character will adhere to a particular notion about hobbits, which includes the fact that they simply DON'T get any more powerful than a predetermined level. There is no "no matter what he does or how hard he tries." A hobbit is INHERENTLY incapable of surpassing this limit. Nothing Merry or Pippin could ever do, ever, would make them as powerful as Boromir.

Again, you can change this for your own game; I'm just explaining why it appears in D&D.

[Deleted]

To quote Gary, "Do you see any elves or dwarves around?" Viz Stormcrow, they were just plain limited in his vision.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that most gamers who have complained about this are thick as mud anyway. So there are no dwarves over sixth level? No Hobbits more powerful than Heroes? No Elf higher than Hero/Warlock?

...where do they go, anyway? We know what the "end game" is for humans. Why should nonhuman adventurers have the same endgame?

[mindcontrolsquid]

Oct 13, 2015 21:45:01 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

We know what the "end game" is for humans. Why should nonhuman adventurers have the same endgame?

And I don't have a problem with that. I just think it's nice to provide options for people who want to have some sort of endgame in mind for their demihuman characters, even if it isn't the same as that for humans.

[strangebrew]

My thinking is that hobbits, elves, and dwarves adventure as a kind of phase in their long lives. After a certain point, they have had their fill and they return to their burrows, forests, and mountains and move on to the next chapter of their lives. Humans, with their comparatively shorter lives, have a kind of manic ambitious drive that the demihumans lack. A character who has reached his max level has grown weary of adventuring and feels the urge to settle into a different life.

If a player reached a max level and wanted to continue adventuring, I'd left them of course. I would say they can continue to accumulate experience, and once they hit the benchmark for a new level, they can reroll their max-level hit dice for a higher number. That way they might improve, but it's still within the bounds of the original level scope.

I think the posts in this thread raised some great points/explanations. I also agree with the idea that, if you don't like level limits, toss 'em out. It's your game.

[Porphyre]

My, everyone knows Master Samwise Gamgee multiclassed and became a 20th level Gardener !

[Finarvyn]

This is a great thread, and I think there are several fantastic points herein.

Mindcontrolsquid’s primary question is a good one. What do demi-humans do after they reach the level cap? Does their adventure era end, or is there more?

First, I do like level limits because they give reasons why not to play an elf or a dwarf. The rules clearly give advantages to non-humans, and level limits help counter that. Stormcrow had the best single thought here, I think. So why level limits? Because it produces the sort of world that Gygax wanted to see in his game. I like the notion of having a game feel Gygax-like. That’s a good rationale in and of itself to use level limits.

I also think that level limits fit best in a low-level campaign. Hedgehobbit noted that AD&D extended levels to 20 and the OD&D rules give vague guidelines for extending the game above the charts, but my personal belief is that OD&D functions best when capped at levels in the 10-12 range. In such a campaign, level limits tend to become notable but not crippling to characters.

So back to the question of what do demi-humans do after they hit their level limit. Howandwhy nailed it with the notion that they hit “name level” and settle down to the endgame phase. They just do it earlier than humans.

Just my two coppers.

[scottyg]

I remember Ernie Gygax telling me a story about a game he played with Gary and Rob and Terry Kuntz. Dave was running a Blackmoor game. Ernie was playing an elf that was already maxed out level wise, but was playing the elf just for fun and for any additional loot he might acquire.
There's a sense of accomplishment that you get, as a player, when you level, so it would be natural to have other PCs to work with, but I don't think retiring/settling down a maxed out PC was considered the default.
Luke Gygax's PC Melf is another good example. Gary used level limits in his game, but as the natural state. There were magical ways to gain additional levels. Luke kept playing Melf after maxing out, and gained a few levels on top of the default level limits as a result.

[Punkrabbitt]

Tolkien seems to be the default example, so lets put it into game terms.

Thorin Oakenshield and Co. were a group of max level dwarfs, probably with a smattering of magic items between them. They were accompanied by a similarly-levelled and equipped human magic user, and took on a 1st level halfling. Gandalf's player had a baby about the time the party hit Mirkwood and had to miss a few sessions, not returning until the finalsession of the quest. But byy the the time they hit Esgaroth, Bilbo was level capped as well.

Did they retire? No! They went after the gold! They were prepared to take on a dragon still! After the quest was over, we know that Bilbo and Gloin at least did retire, but that Balin organized and lead an entire expedition to re-take Moria from the goblins.

So, I see a lot of potential for level capped demi-humans still being out there in the world, doing stuff and getting into trouble.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Oct 14, 2015 8:54:50 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

Tolkien seems to be the default example, so lets put it into game terms.

Thorin Oakenshield and Co. were a group of max level dwarfs, probably with a smattering of magic items between them. They were accompanied by a similarly-levelled and equipped human magic user, and took on a 1st level halfling. Gandalf's player had a baby about the time the party hit Mirkwood and had to miss a few sessions, not returning until the finalsession of the quest. But byy the the time they hit Esgaroth, Bilbo was level capped as well.

Did they retire? No! They went after the gold! They were prepared to take on a dragon still! After the quest was over, we know that Bilbo and Gloin at least did retire, but that Balin organized and lead an entire expedition to re-take Moria from the goblins.

So, I see a lot of potential for level capped demi-humans still being out there in the world, doing stuff and getting into trouble.

An excellent example of what I'm talking about!

[Stormcrow]

Oct 14, 2015 4:44:37 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

So back to the question of what do demi-humans do after they hit their level limit. Howandwhy nailed it with the notion that they hit “name level” and settle down to the endgame phase. They just do it earlier than humans.

The "endgame phase" is the part of the game where you're running baronies and kingdoms. These are activities that, for the most part, belong to humans alone.

Elves never become Lords or Wizards. They therefore can't be barons and can't manufacture magic items. Without these, they can't play big-time political games. And this is what Gary had in mind: elves live in secluded patches of woods, not expanding kingdoms, and not wizards' towers.

Hobbits never become Lords, so they can't become barons. Again, this is on purpose: Gary didn't want to see hobbits running kingdoms because he felt that hobbits SHOULDN'T be running kingdoms.

Dwarves never become Lords, so they can't become barons. Dwarves live in underground kingdoms, which doesn't leave much room for the rapid, ambitious expansion of barons. Yes, dwarves have kings, but there is no political ambition of human barons in their limited, underground realms, and they are insular with respect to contact with the surface world.

Elves, dwarves, and hobbits don't HAVE an "endgame phase." They can only become, at best, lieutenants to human Lords, Patriarchs, and Wizards. If you choose to play a demi-human, you're accepting this state of affairs from the get-go.

With Greyhawk, no race is limited in level as thieves, and this is because the thief has no "endgame phase." Later editions of the game would let the thief run the local Thieves' Guild or create a hideout, but in Greyhawk the thief never participates in the grand political game of the Lords, Wizards, and Patriarchs, so there's no need to cap their levels. One of the bigwigs might employ thieves in their own "endgame," but thieves don't boss around their own followers.

[Porphyre]

Oct 14, 2015 8:54:50 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

Tolkien seems to be the default example, so lets put it into game terms.

Thorin Oakenshield and Co. were a group of max level dwarfs, probably with a smattering of magic items between them. They were accompanied by a similarly-levelled and equipped human magic user, and took on a 1st level halfling. Gandalf's player had a baby about the time the party hit Mirkwood and had to miss a few sessions, not returning until the finalsession of the quest. But byy the the time they hit Esgaroth, Bilbo was level capped as well.

I would say that Thorin probably was a hero-level dwarf, but the other ones were just retainers (except maybe Balin)

[Porphyre]

Oct 14, 2015 8:54:50 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

Tolkien seems to be the default example, so lets put it into game terms.

Otherwise, Still using Tolkien as a reference , Middle-Earth is full of High level elves like Elrond or Galadriel*, but those are mainly NPC, so I would tend to think that , in a LotR campaign, elves who hit max level either become NPC, or are definitely retired from the campaign ie: they sail to the immortal lands). 

Seeing how they often use healing magic, I am inclined to think taht they fill the role of (NPCs only) Fighter/Magic-User/Cleric, according to the Suppl1-Greyhawk


* one might argue that gandalf actually is playing an elf ("they gain the benefits of both classes and may use
 both weaponry and spells")

[Torreny]

Oct 14, 2015 6:43:25 GMT -6 scottyg said:

I remember Ernie Gygax telling me a story about a game he played with Gary and Rob and Terry Kuntz. Dave was running a Blackmoor game. Ernie was playing an elf that was already maxed out level wise, but was playing the elf just for fun and for any additional loot he might acquire.
There's a sense of accomplishment that you get, as a player, when you level, so it would be natural to have other PCs to work with, but I don't think retiring/settling down a maxed out PC was considered the default.
Luke Gygax's PC Melf is another good example. Gary used level limits in his game, but as the natural state. There were magical ways to gain additional levels. Luke kept playing Melf after maxing out, and gained a few levels on top of the default level limits as a result.

Reminds me of the one quest some PCs did in Rythlondar. Though there were risks in getting there and afterward, the dwarf got a wish to exceed his level cap (though worded far better than that). His greed later produced his undoing however.

In my own personal experience with level caps, it made the players mostly just play humans instead. Though one player found the elf's limit reasonable, considering characters making it past level 10 is rather rare by and large.

[Deleted]

Oct 14, 2015 9:05:38 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Oct 14, 2015 4:44:37 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

So back to the question of what do demi-humans do after they hit their level limit. Howandwhy nailed it with the notion that they hit “name level” and settle down to the endgame phase. They just do it earlier than humans.

The "endgame phase" is the part of the game where you're running baronies and kingdoms. These are activities that, for the most part, belong to humans alone.

Elves never become Lords or Wizards. They therefore can't be barons and can't manufacture magic items. Without these, they can't play big-time political games. And this is what Gary had in mind: elves live in secluded patches of woods, not expanding kingdoms, and not wizards' towers.

Hobbits never become Lords, so they can't become barons. Again, this is on purpose: Gary didn't want to see hobbits running kingdoms because he felt that hobbits SHOULDN'T be running kingdoms.

Dwarves never become Lords, so they can't become barons. Dwarves live in underground kingdoms, which doesn't leave much room for the rapid, ambitious expansion of barons. Yes, dwarves have kings, but there is no political ambition of human barons in their limited, underground realms, and they are insular with respect to contact with the surface world.

Elves, dwarves, and hobbits don't HAVE an "endgame phase." They can only become, at best, lieutenants to human Lords, Patriarchs, and Wizards. If you choose to play a demi-human, you're accepting this state of affairs from the get-go.

With Greyhawk, no race is limited in level as thieves, and this is because the thief has no "endgame phase." Later editions of the game would let the thief run the local Thieves' Guild or create a hideout, but in Greyhawk the thief never participates in the grand political game of the Lords, Wizards, and Patriarchs, so there's no need to cap their levels. One of the bigwigs might employ thieves in their own "endgame," but thieves don't boss around their own followers.

Or maybe elves, dwarfs, and Hobbits find themselves drawn to mysterious "paths between" where they disappear from the ken of the mortals of this world, having finally achieved "adult form," to rejoin the pure cultures of their respective races. Or something else. Just because the human "end game" is playing a game of feudal societies does not mean the nonhumans don't have an end game. It's just different.

Of COURSE Gary didn't specify what it was. "Why have us do any more of your imagining for you?"

Maybe Elves travel across the plains to fight their warped kindred, the Melniboneans.

[howandwhy99]

Oct 14, 2015 0:10:05 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

My, everyone knows Master Samwise Gamgee multiclassed and became a 20th level Gardener !

Check out B/X expert Halflings. They gain 8 levels of Fighter topping out at "Sheriff"

[Porphyre]

Oct 14, 2015 22:02:35 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Oct 14, 2015 0:10:05 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

My, everyone knows Master Samwise Gamgee multiclassed and became a 20th level Gardener !

Check out B/X expert Halflings. They gain 8 levels of Fighter topping out at "Sheriff"

Clearly a type : it has to be Shirriff 

Putting joke aside, I think this converges with mindcontrolsquid original post, as with gronan's remark :

it can be surmised that races such as elves, dwarves, hobbits/halflings are obviously inherently not human, and thus cannot be expected to have the same priorities as human beings

Or maybe elves, dwarfs, and Hobbits find themselves drawn to mysterious "paths between" where they disappear from the ken of the mortals of this world, having finally achieved "adult form," to rejoin the pure cultures of their respective races.

Level limits are only a limit in terms of fighting (or magic) capability, represented by the rules stats that are  Hit Dice, To-Hit scores and Saves. Nonhumans are just not "that" interested in combat and power. That's just a phase some young pass through before coming to maturity. They still have unlimited potential in a myriad other fields that "do" count for their people, but which are just not represented in game terms (because a Gardener or Beer-brewer class, or  Gem-cutter, Miner or Librarian class would probably be lame, no matter how hard you try and how cleverly you design them).

[howandwhy99]

I may be off on this, but I take all classes to be Human culture classes, that demihumans are acting semi-human by learning them. And a common elf or dwarf advances by race. And Humans are the specialists based on role theory. That their advancement is "infinite" as they are the growth progression used for the class.

Of course, I allow all races that qualify the chance to play any class or subclass too. Rangers may traditionally be a human defending organization, but an elf could still become one.

[Deleted]

It's not that there aren't Hobbits over "Hero" level, or Dwarfs over "Myrmidon," or Elves higher than "Hero/Warlock."

It's just that humans never see them.

So invent an interesting reason why. It's supposed to be a game of imagination. Less whining, more inventing.

[geoffrey]

In chapter 8 of The Two Towers, Gimli (speaking of the Glittering Caves) says to Legolas: "No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there. Do you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the springtime for firewood? We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap--a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day--so we could work, and as the years went by, we should open up new ways, and display far chambers that are still dark, glimpsed only as a void beyond fissures in the rock."

As you can see, dwarves have more important things to do than go on adventures. It would be the same for the other demi-humans. Elves would literally plant a small forest and spend centuries tending it to get it to look "just right". Gnomes would have interests somewhere between those of dwarves and of elves. Hobbits have some serious eating to do.

Adventuring for the long-lived demi-humans is merely a short-lived phase, a lark, an irresponsible curiosity about how those nutty humans live. Then they have enough of it, grow up, and get on with their lives.

[Finarvyn]

Oct 14, 2015 9:05:38 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Oct 14, 2015 4:44:37 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

So back to the question of what do demi-humans do after they hit their level limit. Howandwhy nailed it with the notion that they hit “name level” and settle down to the endgame phase. They just do it earlier than humans.

The "endgame phase" is the part of the game where you're running baronies and kingdoms. These are activities that, for the most part, belong to humans alone.

Perhaps, but I seem to remember folks with names like Elrond and Galadriel who set up neat little baronies and kingdoms. I guess I don't see any reason why elves or dwarves can't do this, even if they typically may not.

[mindcontrolsquid]

I seem to remember folks with names like Elrond and Galadriel who set up neat little baronies and kingdoms. I guess I don't see any reason why elves or dwarves can't do this, even if they typically may not.

I would imagine that these individuals are the exception to the rule. Personally I wouldn't have any problem in establishing super-normal elves and dwarves in their own lands and kingdoms; it only seems logical to allow this given that humans hold political authority within their own lands, which presumably are the basis for most campaigns.

[scottyg]

If you're using Middle Earth as inspiration, then there are probably more dwarf and elf rulers than humans. But Gary was no fan, and he wanted a human-centric game. As Stormcrow mentioned up-thread, that's really the root of the rule. It's just a flavor thing and disregarding limits won't really cause any major mechanic meltdown.

[howandwhy99]

Oct 16, 2015 14:30:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Oct 14, 2015 9:05:38 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

The "endgame phase" is the part of the game where you're running baronies and kingdoms. These are activities that, for the most part, belong to humans alone.

Perhaps, but I seem to remember folks with names like Elrond and Galadriel who set up neat little baronies and kingdoms. I guess I don't see any reason why elves or dwarves can't do this, even if they typically may not.

Recently having reread the Greyhawk Catalogue, it struck me that Gary put in exactly these sorts of "realms" for demihuman races. Celene isn't a political power, so much as the hidden kingdom of the elves with grey elf nobles and sylvan elves in the forests.

The human-recognized political lands called the Uleks appear to be enclaves were demihumans stood fast against the new human population surging into the Sheldomar Valley centuries ago. That this and Celene's placement means they hold the Lortmils as important. That the Uleks are now as much half-human as they are half-demihuman and have political ties and treaties with Keoland and its children. And that some historic land (named Ulek?) may have bonded all these faerie folk together there.

The high elves I *believe* come from the Highfolk territories, especially the channel where the high elf king resides, and have considerable history with humans unlike other kinds of elves. These are the kind that commonly train in human classes and are the default PC elf race.

Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings are hidden around in the wilderness areas of the Flanaess. There are some who live amongst the humans, but these folks are not back "at home" either under mountain, hill, or dale.

Plenty of humanoids don't control territories either in Greyhawk, but there sure are enough of them. That they hold land and follow some power structure, more chaotic traditionally, would seem to hold true as they have chiefs and other cultural organization seen in the Monster Manual.

So I think there were areas by Gary's thinking where demihumans could go and be recognized and quite powerful. But also that, at least for Greyhawk, humans were the new race who ruled the land by and large.

[Porphyre]

Oct 16, 2015 14:30:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Oct 14, 2015 9:05:38 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

The "endgame phase" is the part of the game where you're running baronies and kingdoms. These are activities that, for the most part, belong to humans alone.

Perhaps, but I seem to remember folks with names like Elrond and Galadriel who set up neat little baronies and kingdoms. I guess I don't see any reason why elves or dwarves can't do this, even if they typically may not.

I stated before, I rather see Elrond as the "NPC-only" Fighter-Magic User-Cleric elf mentioned in Greyhawk.