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Post by Porphyre on Oct 9, 2015 0:41:09 GMT -6
Given the place of this paragraph (and the later precision that only one half of sailors can swim) , I suppose that the "drowning charts" initially apply for naval battles and mass-combat, but can also be used for individual characters in a dungeon situation (for instance , in the case of a trap door leading to an immerged pit).
However , the "roll every turn to see if your character is dead as a cat in a bag" seems a little harsh. Besides , the chances of drowning are 100% to a plate armored character , which leads to a "death no save" situation.
I was thinking os tomething along the lines of : 1/ roll every turn according to the chart, if roll is under percentage, 1d6 of damage by drowning are taken 2/ every turn, the player can roll a Saving Throw against "Paralysis" to see if he manages to take off his armor (if the player insists on not dropping his precious +2 sword, he gets no save).
You might ask for several turns and several ST to take of the armor (i.e. 1 turn for leather, two turns for mail, three turne for plate)
How would you handle it?
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mindcontrolsquid
Level 4 Theurgist
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man..."
Posts: 118
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Post by mindcontrolsquid on Oct 9, 2015 4:39:02 GMT -6
I would probably say that if they are not drowned by the initial percentage chance, the referee could roll a withstand adversity percentage roll for them each round to see how long they can hold their breath, perhaps with a -5% chance of success for each round after the first. As for drowning in plate armor, I rather like the "death no save" aspect of it, but perhaps that speaks more to my personal sadism than to the rules themselves...
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Post by Porphyre on Oct 9, 2015 6:46:11 GMT -6
As for drowning in plate armor, I rather like the "death no save" aspect of it, but perhaps that speaks more to my personal sadism than to the rules themselves... It sure does About the DNS aspect , I think there is two sides. D&D is much a resource-management thing, but also about choices. Everything , but especially the equipement works on a trade-of basis. If I choose to wear plate armor, I expect better protection, but I know I will be slower and will not be able to carry as much gold than if I choose a lighter armor. Such choices are informed choices made by the players. If I am in a naval-battle scenario, I expect the players to be smart enough to know that heavy armor on sea is not a good idea (everyone nowadays has heard of A Song of Ice and Fire and the battle of Blackwater, for the seven's sake !). I wouldn't have much afterthoughts drowning stupid armored knights by dozen in such a situation. However in a dungeon "punishing" a player with a 100% lethal trap because he elected to wear plate armor would seem "foul game", imho.
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mindcontrolsquid
Level 4 Theurgist
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man..."
Posts: 118
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Post by mindcontrolsquid on Oct 9, 2015 7:45:49 GMT -6
However in a dungeon "punishing" a player with a 100% lethal trap because he elected to wear plate armor would seem "foul game", imho. You have a point, although I would respond by saying that a referee shouldn't (in my opinion) introduce such a scenario in a dungeon without suitable warning, such as a flooded level or an underground river or something similar. This allows the players to better formulate their decision-making: do they journey across a body of water if it means doffing their armor? Or do they turn back without exploring further, possibly losing the opportunity for further treasure? The lethality of the situation is not considerably more than other obstacles one would face in a dungeon, it simply requires a different form of consideration from the players. Again, this is just how I might run things; that's not to say that creating extenuating drowning rules is flat-out wrong. It's all a matter of what sort of challenge a referee wants to present to their players (I can say from experience that my players are generally not fond of any sort of aquatic adventure, so to each their own...).
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Post by sepulchre on Oct 9, 2015 9:18:55 GMT -6
Porphyre wrote:
From some of the reading I have come across on medieval warfare at sea, this is the reason cumbersome armor if it could be afforded was generally shunned. Agreed, it makes a pit trap rather harrowing. The drowning percentages regarding armor seem appropriate.
Here are some rulings I have seen in print: (6in6 (100%)/drowning)/swimming in any metal armor(+ 1in6/35lbs. of encumbrance other than armor) (55 DMG) (1in20/hour/drowning/non-metal armor...only the doggy paddle possible... 3"(?) (55 DMG) 3in4/drowning/gale force winds [1-4 rds/(drowning/paralysis)]/icy waters (10 N1 Cult of the Reptile God)... (AD&D rounds) 2 rds/death from asphyxiation (62 WG13 Castle of the Mad Arch Mage)... (AD&D rounds)
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
Is this thing on?
Posts: 171
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Post by Torreny on Oct 9, 2015 9:22:01 GMT -6
However in a dungeon "punishing" a player with a 100% lethal trap because he elected to wear plate armor would seem "foul game", imho. Were the other players handy, I would not make it so, if he was alone on the other hand... Though harsh, the rules are in keeping with the fiction, and rather keeping with real life as well. Plenty of times characters in stories would be seen to shed and carry things overhead in rivers or whatever else, even if it is a hassle and time sink, and very frequently crossed naked, which is all fine and dandy to me. A lot of players seem to treat their armour like clothes too much of the time.
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Post by Porphyre on Oct 9, 2015 12:39:44 GMT -6
Say that to Frederic Barbarossa , I think he didn't get the memo...
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 9, 2015 12:47:23 GMT -6
Porphyre, I like your approach. I just want to put a vote in that the rules may be fair: it is pretty hard to stay afloat in plate I would imagine! Perhaps the save would be for grabbing a rope or some flotsam before going down in the first place. Or a save for shedding armor while sinking. Or both. Maybe a DEX check, if you do that kind of thing.
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Post by Porphyre on Oct 9, 2015 14:58:00 GMT -6
As stated before, I was rather thinking about a saving throw againts paralysis.
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 9, 2015 19:00:19 GMT -6
Porphyre, oh, sorry, I read you now. I am used to playing S&W style, with a single saving-throw. Sorry for the confusion! Carry on!
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Post by Porphyre on Oct 10, 2015 5:47:57 GMT -6
I used the single ST too, but I think it doesn't differentiate the classes enough (I like to use ST rather that ability checks precisely for that reason). I still use it for monsters and NPC, though.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 10, 2015 12:36:56 GMT -6
Given the place of this paragraph (and the later precision that only one half of sailors can swim) , I suppose that the "drowning charts" initially apply for naval battles and mass-combat, but can also be used for individual characters in a dungeon situation (for instance , in the case of a trap door leading to an immerged pit). However , the "roll every turn to see if your character is dead as a cat in a bag" seems a little harsh. Besides , the chances of drowning are 100% to a plate armored character , which leads to a "death no save" situation. .... That is how Arneson played it. Here is what he said about characters falling into Blackmoor Bay: "... they fall towards Bleekmoor Bay some 5 - 100 feet below them. ... they must then avoid drowning (I ask them while they are felling what they are doing); if they are in Plate Armor, I give them a 1/10 chance of getting It off in time; other must make a throw less than their dexterity rating when they are wearing some other Armor!." FFC80:28 Personally, I allow the 1/10 chance for plate, and saving throw anytime somebody falls in water, but clearly Dave was only allowing the chance while a character was falling from high in the air. Note also that in the Underwater section of Supplement II, there are some additional swimming rules that you might find useful: "When in water, swimming, only normal moves may be made. No armor heavier than leather may be worn, and both hands must be unencumbered. Also, only 25% of the normal weight allowance may be carried. .... Remember that while swimming that the adventurers are vulnerable to attack from all angles: up, down, etc." page 48 U&WA p33 does allow the swimmer to carry a dagger or boyant wooden weapon in one hand, but I'd say that still falls under "unencumbered".
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