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Post by kesher on Jul 1, 2015 9:24:24 GMT -6
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Post by ritt on Jul 1, 2015 9:57:59 GMT -6
This looks fascinating! Pretty awesome to see a completely different cultural viewpoint in a game... Ehdrigor"Dungeons and Dragons may have some Indian-inspired tribes in its expansions, but they are always treated as different or inferior." What is he even referring to? The 1e Deities and Demigods? "Inferior"? WTF? This guy should be trying to sell the game on it's own merits, rather than libeling D&D as racist. |
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 1, 2015 10:47:30 GMT -6
Cool game! I might have to "yoink" some of these ideas for my colonial New England campaign.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Jul 3, 2015 17:10:14 GMT -6
Atraughin Clans from Mystara, and Maztica from Forgotten Realms comes to mind about inferior portrayal of indians (yes, Aztecs were indiabs too!)
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Post by ritt on Jul 4, 2015 15:18:39 GMT -6
But how are the Atraughin or Maztica "Inferior"?
The review still strikes me as very unfair in the accusations that it thoughtlessly throws around about D&D.
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 4, 2015 15:59:22 GMT -6
If you don't understand what Daniel Starkey said, maybe leave a comment on his blog? He is far from the first writer to ever blog about D&D and race; I just googled "is D&D racist?" and got 195,000 results. OD&D is very much a part of the pop culture of 1970's USA, when race was a pressing national issue at the forefront of American minds, and I think it is a historical document very much of its time and place. So I think it is fun and interesting to look at D&D through the lens of 2015 conversations about race (just as we might with a comic book or sci-fi movie from the same time period).  |
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
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Post by idrahil on Jul 4, 2015 17:32:37 GMT -6
What a confusing "product description". The game seems interesting enough, but the author of that article makes me want to stay far away from it.
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 4, 2015 17:44:10 GMT -6
What a confusing "product description". The game seems interesting enough, but the author of that article makes me want to stay far away from it. Kesher's original post links to an article by a reviewer/critic who is NOT the same person as Allen Turner, the author of Ehdrigor. The official product description can be read at drivethrurpg.com. It sounds like a rich setting and perhaps I will incorporate some of the ideas into my Deep Arkham campaign. |
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Post by ritt on Jul 4, 2015 21:06:37 GMT -6
I Googled "Is D&D racist?" and the first page of results is mostly essays about how orcs are people too and how ability score modifiers are "Problematic".
I'm Liberal and have played all editions of D&D with a very wide variety of people over the decades, and while I haven't read every single D&D product published, Starkey's accusations of D&D portraying certain human peoples as inferior just doesn't mesh with any D&D experience I've ever had. I have nothing against Ehdrigor itself, it may be a fine game (It certainly fills a needed void and the city on the back of the giant turtle is awesome) but the smug way Starkey throws out a _really serious_ accusation against D&D without backing it up is not constructive.
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Post by cooper on Jul 5, 2015 11:38:07 GMT -6
If it is undoubtably true that being an Englishman (as opposed to a Frenchman or American) informed and impacted how Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings, I think it's fair to say that coming of age through the 60's and being a citizen of a nation founded as a slave state and expanded through conquest would effect, in some way, the writings of Gygax and Arneson. If only because "race" plays a very large roll in the rules of D&D.
As the Christian bible represents the writings of men who were writing from the perspective, or positionality, of a persecuted few in the Levant, the texts, will of course, carry some mark of this.
What I gather the author is saying is that he writes his RPG from the perspective, or positionality, not of a Lord conquering a savage land full of lesser races (how easily we accept the concept!), but as a native of that land.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 17:18:35 GMT -6
I think the article does a horrible job in selling what might be a nice, unconventional attempt at fantasy.
As to the debate about "-isms" in fantasy in general, you all will find a hard time denying that; the eurocentrism of the genre is part of its conventions. But as such a convention, its use is neutral. So, IMO, people are ill-advised to attribute this use of literary conventions to racism. This notion that one can get a genre "more right", instead of "different" by following the ever-changing standards of social convention, I deeply reject it. - Not to say that "mightey whitey" approaches to fantasy literature are necessarily alright, of course, but I perceive a certain hysteria concerning the issue, and I don't share most observations concerning it.
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Jul 5, 2015 19:28:15 GMT -6
An unexpected benefit of d6 damage for all weapons: it isn't culturally biased  |
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Post by discojer on Jul 5, 2015 21:35:52 GMT -6
Meh. If you don't want to be treated as culturally inferior, perhaps your culture should have gotten out of the stone age? Or found a practical use for a wheel?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 0:40:38 GMT -6
First warning for user discojer. Comments like that have no place here.
Any sort of second offense will net you an immediate tempban. And if you're tempted to elaborate your worldview for me, just don't:
An immediate permanent ban will be the consequence.Feel free to continue discussing the article in a non-racist manner, though, gentlemen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 9:22:04 GMT -6
I think the article does a horrible job in selling what might be a nice, unconventional attempt at fantasy. This was my take. It looks like every other story-based FATE clone I've seen. I can't even tell how the game deviates from FATE at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 2:00:27 GMT -6
I am not being racist when I report the observation that, lately, a few Native American critics seem to have tried to make waves in the RPG scene, and over issues I personally consider neglectable, or even fabricated. (You might have heard that there was a formal complaint against Monte Cook Enterprises, for an IMO rather harmless depiction of proto-Indian American society.)
The article by Mr Starkey seems to be fueled with the same sort of anger, and, while discussion about discrimination is continually necessary, especially with the current situation in the US, which I as an outsider can only describe as deeply bewildering - I think we can all agree that D&D is probably the wrong place to start such a discussion, for all the reasonable arguments stated above.
I am not sure if Mr Starkey is associated with the "Edrigohr" brand in any way or form, but he's surely doing the developers of the game a great disservice with his review, as he makes it part of his own political agenda. It's not that he sounds like a racist himself in some of his assertions; it's that he sounds like a very young man, or somebody who hasn't read or traveled much. My frank, if high-brow opinion is, he probably shouldn't write, at all, before he has earned his spurs.
And as to the game itself - it certainly looks charming; but considering that it is the product of a Kickstarter campaign that apparently delivered only HALF of the promised goods, and that it now seems to be marketed with this terrible notion of desired moral superiority, I can safely say that it is not something I am interested in.
It's a shame, really, because the setting sounds great; but if I am accused from the get-go to lack empathy through "the Native experience" Mr Starkey believes to have found for himself, why bother? Starkey's review really declared the game tobe exactly what he didn't want it to become: A fringe game, reserved only for Indians.
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 6:28:14 GMT -6
I am not being racist when I...
You should have stopped writing there. "I'm not racist, but gosh darn those angry Indians are at it again!" Please don't abuse your moderator privileges by using these forums as a soapbox against a culture in relation to which you are a self-admitted "outsider". Is that what these forums are about? I thought we were here to talk about OD&D. |
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Post by kesher on Jul 7, 2015 8:32:34 GMT -6
Yeah, Raph, that was out of line.
My original post was merely to point out what looked like an interesting game approaching the RPG experience from a completely different cultural angle. Maybe I should've linked straight to the game's website instead of the article above, since this thread has turned into a pointless raking of an absent author over imaginary coals.
I'd be more than happy to participate in a separate thread about cultural assumptions and representations in D&D specifically, or RPGs in general. Here's the thing, though--this board is often mentioned online as being the "friendliest place on the Internet", etc. And there's an element of truth to that. However, part of our ability to remain "friendly" seems to be because we often ignore problematic topics. When we do engage them, all too quickly we end up sounding like much of the rest of the Internet. I find that problematic and unfortunate, and I'm not sure what we can do about it.
I know we're here to "talk about OD&D", and I'm all for that! But, the game doesn't exist in a vacuum, and we're being disingenuous if we pretend it does.
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Post by ritt on Jul 7, 2015 10:20:43 GMT -6
The very real problem of racism isn't helped at all by people glibly throwing around accusations of it. And that, IMHO, is what Starkey does in his review and what was at the root of the (Totally unfounded, unfair, and downright weird) Monte Cook "Controversy" Raphael mentions above.
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 10:35:12 GMT -6
The very real problem of racism isn't helped at all by people glibly throwing around accusations of it. And that, IMHO, is what Starkey does in his review and what was at the root of the (Totally unfounded, unfair, and downright weird) Monte Cook "Controversy" Raphael mentions above. I just re-read the Starkey review, and it does not contain a single instance of the words "race," "racist," or "racism." The first person to use the word "racist" in this conversation was you, ritt. If you have strong feelings about something Daniel Starkey said, don't be a coward and accuse him of being "glib" when he is not here to defend himself---please leave a comment on his blog and let him know how you feel.  |
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Post by ritt on Jul 7, 2015 10:37:52 GMT -6
I just re-read the Starkey review, and it does not contain a single instance of the words "race," "racist," or "racism." The first person to use the word "racist" in this conversation was you, ritt. He claims that some mystery D&D product portrayed Native Americans as "Inferior". |
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Post by thorswulf on Jul 7, 2015 10:59:07 GMT -6
I will be the first to admit I glanced briefly at this setting, but decided not to purchase it. I don't have anything against the system or the background, it just wasn't what I was looking for. I don't think D&D is racist, it is a reflection of the cultural and literary traditions the writers were familiar with. There have been many products using different settings based on real world cultures and histories. This is another one which tried from a different perspective.
The biggest problem I have encountered with trying to use real cultures as a basis for a fantasy setting is getting an over all gestalt for it. It is hard to do this without actually having a practical, working knowledge of how things work. Books only cover so much. Real storytellers telling Lady Louse stories in a Long House are a hundred times more awesome than reading the stories. In the end I don't think I could ever do justice to a cultural based setting to my personal satisfaction. This is why Glorantha has a huge following.
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 13:06:19 GMT -6
He claims that some mystery D&D product portrayed Native Americans as "Inferior". And in Chainmail everyone is inferior to the Swiss. Our hobby is a brutal game of rock-scissor-paper. |
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 14:06:39 GMT -6
So I decided to take one for the team, and purchased a PDF of Ehdrigor this morning. A quick skim-through shows some fun ideas that I might use in my own campaign. (Buffalo spiders!) So far, my worst criticism is the dreadful choice of fonts. (Papyrus?!?) I have only 54 more pages to read until I get to the Character Creation chapter. |
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Post by Red Baron on Jul 7, 2015 14:15:03 GMT -6
So far, my worst criticism is the dreadful choice of fonts. (Papyrus?!?) Its a shame that a lot of products are useless because of a poor font choice. |
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 14:27:06 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the book is illegible or "useless"... in fact my comment was meant as an "I can't find fault with the content, so I am going to nit pick the layout" type of compliment! I just think, if you are trying to market your game as being free of colonialist values and influences, using "the Avatar font" is an (unintentionally?) ironic layout decision. |
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Jul 7, 2015 17:00:15 GMT -6
I just want to chime that my issue was with the review, not the product. The giant turtle certainly looks cool! Buffalo Spiders sound great too.
Also, my main issue with the review is the guy seems to play in a way that I don't (Make rich backstories for your new characters. What happens if they fall in a spiked pit?). That and the adventure he had did not seem appealing to me.
On to the sensitive side of my post: I don't claim my way of playing is superior, but it is the way I prefer. Monsters, traps, treasure! Herbs for a birth sound like a fine hook...but my dude needs treasure lol
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 17:40:48 GMT -6
If Deep Arkham ever makes it west of the Appalachians, I promise you Great Plains full of spider-buffaloes!
In regards to character death, this is my very preliminary reading (only halfway through the rules) so take with a grain of salt: Ehdrigor is not a d20 or D&D based system, so the "death and dying" rules are very different than the familiar HP/death system. The game uses mechanics called "Consequences" and "Getting Taken Out" that are new concepts to me. It seems to me on preliminary reading that PC death is rare in Ehdrigor and that an episodic "get knocked unconscious and live to fight another day" style of play is encouraged. The GM can telegraph lethal intent by raising the death flag at peak moments of conflict and tension in the storyline: "OK, this is a big boss fight, some of you guys might actually die!"
In terms of the setting itself, I am really enjoying it in a similar way to how I enjoyed Princess Mononoke, if you've ever seen that movie. Game of Thrones fans will appreciate the calendar system: it is based on how many winters you have survived. Instead of saying "the year 2015" you might say "the Winter of Famine" for example. Players might have shared back stories of particularly harsh winters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 18:59:01 GMT -6
You should have stopped writing there. "I'm not racist, but gosh darn those angry Indians are at it again!" Please don't abuse your moderator privileges by using these forums as a soapbox against a culture in relation to which you are a self-admitted "outsider". Is that what these forums are about? I thought we were here to talk about OD&D. That is not what I wrote. If you define any statement against any social group as derogatory, how are you going to have a productive discourse?! Am I not able to voice objective criticism over an The only way that I am indeed relying on my credit as a moderator is that I implicitely assume that most people here want this productive discourse, and don't treat them like a 19th-century schoolmaster, hitting them over the head whenever they write something they obviously didn't take the time to think twice about. I just re-read the Starkey review, and it does not contain a single instance of the words "race," "racist," or "racism." The first person to use the word "racist" in this conversation was you, ritt. If you have strong feelings about something Daniel Starkey said, don't be a coward and accuse him of being "glib" when he is not here to defend himself---please leave a comment on his blog and let him know how you feel. Ritt is not being a coward, nor have you any reason to call him any sort of names. He, like me, and like others in his thread, is voicing mild concern over an article that is either incredibly bigotted, or intentionally inflammatory. The only one arguing with "strong feelings" for an indefensible issue is YOU. Let's look at the article you're so keen to defend, for the sake of... What exactly? After a diatribe on "Indian Time" that does not seem to be connected to the game itself in any tangible form, the reviewer goes on to make bold assumptions on the treatment of Native American minorities in game fiction, which he tries to back up with annecdotal evidence. His main point being that the "Native" aspect of the game somehow lends it to a higher degree of sophisitication than non-Native games, which is a rather absurd point to make. And in the last few parapgraphs, the article becomes completely nonsensical, when it is implied that the game is valuable as some sort of cultural heritage, together again with superior - 'cause "Native" - roleplaying mechanics, and superior - 'cause "Native" storytelling. And I, the reader, have to ask: All this hybris, all this bigotted nonsense for what basically amounts to a Fate/Core homebrew? Am I a racist for pointing out that the article is written by an idiot? Am I a racist for linking this last nonsensical ousting to other, similar events concerning similar topics in the game community last year? - I don't think I am. I think, if you accuse me of making this discussion a "soap box against a culture", you're building a strawman argument for evading the real "gamer" issue here, which is mainly, that Edrigohr's crowdfunding campaign was another one of those that ended unhappily for the customers. |
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Post by Mushgnome on Jul 7, 2015 20:03:17 GMT -6
By way of rebuttal allow me to present Mazda --- The Gatherer!  Think of it as a "jumping off point" for your imagination--what specifically did Mazda do to rub Raama the wrong way? |
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