Discussing making player weapons objects of legend

[derv]

I'm tossing some ideas around for an alternative to the standard discovery of magical weaponry. Basically, I don't include alot of magic in my games and it's out of place to be able to purchase a magical weapon in my campaign.

But, I do like the idea of weapons becoming legendary. In myth and fantasy literature "magic" weapons and armor are often bestowed by the gods or created by mystical beings, witches, or wizards. Yet, there is also an element of historic tales where weapons wielded by great heroes are given a reputation or aura that is earned because of it's deeds and realation to it's handler. You see this in Authurian and Norse myth, primarily with swords.

Mythological Objects Wiki

So, I thought it might be worth while opening this idea up to those on the forum. Maybe others have already done something like this in their game or you're aware of a system that already exists.

What I'm thinking of is a way for PC's to allow their primary weapon to gain "magic" qualities or, otherwise, become objects of legend. What are the requirements and how can a player achieve that quintessential "+1" of OD&D renown?

Some ideas I've scribbled down so far-

>You must give your weapon a name.

>The PC must be of at least heroic level.

>It must be used in some sort of of epic battle or to vanquish a superior foe.

>Stories and/or poems must be told of the weapon's great deeds and qualities. The player would have to write this.

>Once weapon is deemed "legendary", one could follow explanations on p.27-30 of M&T as a guideline for specifics and probabilities of unique attributes.

I'm looking for some ideas on codifying these things or your ideas into the game. How would you or have you handled it?

[Merctime]

Hello, Derv.

I don't know if you've got access to it, but perhaps the method found in Arneson's "First Fantasy Campaign" would be of use to you?

If you don't have access, I'd be willing to PM you relevant information.

Or, I wonder out loud... Has there been an article like this in the astounding Fight On! magazine?

[talysman]

You could use the magic research rules to govern improvements. For example, the first thing you'd have to do to enable your sword to become legendary is to have a master smith etch the weapon's name into the blade and perhaps inlay silver or gold. The amount of money spent affects the odds of the weapon becoming legendary. It's basically 100 gp per 1% chance for 1st level, so if you want to use a d20, you could make the cost 500 gp for a 1 in 20 chance, plus 500 gp for each additional 1 in 20. Double the cost for a +2 weapon, or quadruple it for a +3 weapon.

You don't roll during the crafting, but instead during combat. When you strike the deathblow on a monster that's higher level than you, roll to see if the weapon becomes legendary. Or it becomes legendary on a perfect 20 roll for the death blow, or a perfect 19+ if you paid the extra 500 gp, or a perfect 18+ if you paid 1500 gp and so on.

Once it becomes legendary, the GM secretly rolls for intelligence and possibly ego, perhaps using only 1d6 to start. Each additional legendary deathblow gives a chance for the weapon's intelligence to increase, and thus have an increasing chance of communicating with the hero and/or developing powers. To add specific powers, take the legendary weapon back to the smith to inlay some runes on the weapon for another magic research roll, the cost based on the effective spell level of the desired effect (flaming swords might be 3rd level, a sword that summons storms would be 6th level.)

[Merctime]

My god, Talysman, that's brilliant. I love it!

[derv]

Here's the cunundrum of running low magic, slow progression, low level games and the reason I'm looking at house rules for magic weapons- many higher HD creatures require magic weapons to hit.

I like talysman's ideas, but I was already wrestling with the problem of not wanting to make one of the requirements to be how much investment was put into a weapon. My thinking was that even a mundane stone ax, or other such weapon, in the hands of the right person could and should be able to become legendary. Talysmans ideas about adornment and especially inscribing with runes are worth considering and would definately fit in my games.

Here's what I'm thinking, two catagories- "renown" and "legendary".

A renown weapon would be your simple +1 item. For a PC's weapon to become "renown":

1. The PC must be a min. 3HD+

2. They must single handedly kill a foe of 2HD+ greater then themselves or
A number of opponents of >1HD with a combined HD 1+ or greater or
A number of opponents of 1HD< with a combined HD 4+ or greater.

3. Weapon must have scored max damage at least 2x during melee ("6" if using d6 for all weapons)

4. Weapon must be given a name

5. Stories, poems, or songs must be told.

6. 1-2 in 6 (33%) chance of weapon becoming "renown"

For a weapon to become "legendary":

1. PC must be a min. 4HD+

2. Weapon must be "renown"

3. PC must invest in the gold or silver adornment and inlayment of mystic runes by a master craftsman.*

4. Criteria above must be met again

5. 1 in 6 (16%) chance of weapon becoming "legendary"

6. Treat as magic sword for additional attributes and possibility of additional or specific hit and damage bonuses.*

7. Weapon will take on alignment of it's owner

* I'll have to think more on talysman's suggestions on how much investment and it's effects.

Any thoughts or changes you'd consider?

[Merctime]

I'd say, for the style of campaign you are positing, that these rules would probably be just fine. They certainly sound fun.

One thing I might consider: regarding specifically the 'stronger creature' kill requirement.

I'd remain as you wrote it for weapons of reknown, as they are the 'intro' or 'low-end' here... But for the legendary status requirement, I might not solely use higher hit dice vanquished as a requirement; But it would be part of it.

My thought: If the weapon advances into legendry, should it not vanquish a legendary foe?

Truthfully, all I mean is... a special, specific individual of whatever creature type that is so fierce, so vile, so powerful as to be feared head and shoulders above it's peers.

It's not just a troll... It's harrow-limb the troll. Not just a hill giant, but three-stalks Tom.

Such beasts of legendry would bring high praise indeed for the slaying, due to significantly greater malice.

And, as the referee, it's really up to you whether they possess extra abilities, or don't... and just possess an infamous name and you play them far better or perhaps along the lines of their wild history and personality.

But I'd make something like this a requirement for the most potent of weapons.

[cooper]

How about thinking of magic items not in terms of the characters playing now, but in the long arc of a grand campaign where players may go through multiple characters in it's course. Each time a character dies or retires, the magic items he had become more powerful. This could be the result of the growth of myth and legends somehow having an impact. Bob the fighter dies to a troll and assume his +1 sword with a ruby hilt and crossguard shaped like a beautiful woman is lost. Randomly place that sword on your campaign map and now that sword is "the sword of Bob +1/+3 vs trolls". and so on and so on, next time being lost fighting a wizard and so the DM adds to the sword an intelligence and desire to slay magic-users until 5 character generations later, somewhere in the game world is a legendary sword...

I think the tendency to treat the current PC's as those heroes worthy of the greatest weapons is, for me, too narrow a focus, doesn't really foster the depth necessary for a long term campaign world and can be repetitive. Also, reliance upon random generation, in this case, doesn't do much to create continuity. Not every PC needs to be a young Arthur destined to find excalibur, maybe this generation of PC's will be legends that the young Arthur hears about years from now and that it takes many legends and mythic tales before an excalibur can be discovered and maybe that might require 3 or more campaigns in the same game world. You can think of it as "unlocking" magic items in a way.

But, when Bob the player's new character, 2 years later, stumbles upon a weapon that the DM describes as having a ruby hilt and a crossguard in the shape of a beautiful woman, the effect of emersion can't be simulated by handing out paragraphs of backstory and history of the DM's campaign, the player's characters are the backstory and history of the campaign. They know the world because they've helped shape it.

[derv]

Merctime, I think you have stated the spirit of my intent for legendary weapons. The reason I thought stipulating the PC must be 4 HD or better is because this is a heroic level for fighters and, then, any single foe he would vanquish would need to be 6 HD or greater. In OD&D this is a short list ( not that short really ) of powerful monsters- Trolls, Giants, Spectres, Vampires, Gorgons, etc.

Nothings set in stone here, just brainstorming with you guys to try and establish some rules that would make sense for my games. What ever I conclude, I'll still need to try it in play to see if it works, is too difficult or unrealistic, or too simple and easily obtained.

This isn't to rule out the possibility of a PC finding a very rare "magic" weapon in my games either. It's just another path to creating such weapons through play.

cooper, I like the whole idea of the passage of time and "lost and found" for legendary weapons. Some of what you say is probably the rationalization behind the treasure tables as written (which I do not really use).

Taking your idea and applying it, how about....

Removing #6 from the criteria and replacing it with making the weapon a general or specific +2. No intelligence or ego or additional abilities at this point.

Then adding a criteria that for weapon to progress further, it must be lost in battle and again found or pass through the hands of two or more generations through inheritance before criteria #6 would apply and the possibility of intelligence, ego, and additional abilities could come into affect. All previous criteria for a renown weapon would need to be met again or the weapon is again lost and found.

Ultimately, I could see a weapon eventually becoming an "artifact" in this manner, with a few additional stipulations, such as PC must be 10HD+. I can not see "artifacts" having a real place in my games, though. But, I can invision the progression.

[Azafuse]

May 30, 2015 11:52:48 GMT -6 derv said:

Some ideas I've scribbled down so far-

>You must give your weapon a name.

>The PC must be of at least heroic level.

>It must be used in some sort of of epic battle or to vanquish a superior foe.

That's what the Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG suggests, somehow.

When you kill a significant foe (i.e. a Dragon or a Nazgul) that given weapon gains a +1 Inspire/Intimidate test modifier to allies/foes everytime you draw it out and spell its name out (making the weapon recognizable); the more significant foes of that type you kill the greater the bonus becomes.

I've adapted this rule by granting a morale bonus against that enemy type (-1 on attacks against that PC, +1 on attacks coming from the PC), with the bonus increasing after any significant killing for that enemy type; that given weapon works as a bane only for that given enemy type.

I use heroic level as a prerequisite only for damage bonus.

[Merctime]

I really like the idea of a legendary weapon providing an inspirational morale bonus!!

And sure, Derv, I agree. It's all about having pleasant discussion and sharing creativity.

[derv]

May 31, 2015 10:29:08 GMT -6 Azafuse said:

That's what the Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG suggests, somehow.

When you kill a significant foe (i.e. a Dragon or a Nazgul) that given weapon gains a +1 Inspire/Intimidate test modifier to allies/foes everytime you draw it out and spell its name out (making the weapon recognizable); the more significant foes of that type you kill the greater the bonus becomes.

Azafuse, I figured there must be a system that takes a similar approach somewhere. I'd like to know a little more about it.

Not really knowing exactly how Decipher's resolution system works, would these benefits stack on the same weapon? In other words, would the weapon possibly be +3 Intimidate Nazgul and +1 Intimidate Dragons? Does it effect lesser foes such as orcs?

Your example seems to make all modifiers specific by type, so I'm guessing there aren't any vanilla +1 weapons in Decipher's rules.

Also, is this bonus gained automatically after killing a foe? Or is there a chance of not recieving the benefit?

I'm trying to strike a balance where legendary weapons are an outgrowth of play and character advancement, but not so easy to develop that every character has one, or two, or three.

[Azafuse]

Decipher's Sourcebook Fell Beasts and Wondrous Items talks about legendary and magic weapons (giving vague information in literally one column out of three in a single page), with the first ones related to this topic (but a weapon can be both legendary and magic, like Aiglòs).

The exact quote is the following:

"Weapons that strike a significant blow in a renowned combat often take on legendary properties, becoming more than mere metal as their fame grows.
Any time a weapon strikess down a major foe of the Free Peoples - a Nazgul, Dragon, or enemy of similar might - it immediately gains the inherent ability to grant a +1 test modifier to Inspire or Intimidate those who recognise the weapon. As it strikes down more fell enemies, its test modifier grows.
When wieldin such a weapon, it obviously behoves the wielder to announce the wapon as it is drawn from its scabbard or otherwise revealed, increasing the likelihood of its recognition. Some legendary weapons also gain other abilities, such as bonuses to Armed Combat tests, bonuses to other skills, or the capacity to ignore an armour's damage absorption. Such bonuses become part of a weapon's legacy at the Narrator's discretion."

[derv]

Thanks Azafuse.

I like that part "....becoming more than mere metal".

[Deleted]

Here is one of the methods that I use:

Magic Swords obtained IMC start as a magical entity that is a blank slate with no pluses or any abilities. A newly gained magic sword starts with the ability to glow in the presence of its new master’s enemies and the ability to wound anything that requires magic or silver to wound. As the master grows in power and skill, so grows the sword and they will grow from semi-sentient to fully sentient over time. Swords will as their master grows discover talents unique to that master. No two swords are ever the same. Swords used by those who also wield magic will discover talents unique to that master. Swords forged with unique and special metals will also discover unique talents. The more powerful the master, the more powerful the sword will become.

Magic Swords, unlike other magic items, are intimately tied to their master on every plane of existence. A magic sword once claimed and used by its master, then becomes the ultimate symbol of its master’s power. An unused, unclaimed magic sword starts out as a semi-sentient entity with the potential for relating to its master as a good dog relates to its dearly loved master. Magic Swords start as a blank slate and align themselves over time with the alignment of their master. A magic sword has its own life-force that it bonds with its master’s life-force when it is treated with the proper respect and care and they become intertwined over time so that they cannot be separated willingly.

A mistreated sword will turn on its master seeking to cause him harm in battle and slowly drinking his life force. A stolen sword is deadly to the thief and will seek to return to its rightful master.

When the master of a sword dies, if he so chooses, his soul will combine with the sword increasing the power of the sword, its Intelligence and its Ego. In this way it is sometimes possible for a great Artifact to be created.

When its master dies there are usually only two things that can normally be done with a magic sword, one is to pass it on to a blood relative who must be like minded with the original master and must seek vengeance for the original master’s death if the killer still lives and if they choose to take up the sword. These inherited swords are the only ones that do not start as a blank slate. If the blood relative is not like minded or does not choose to seek vengeance assuming the killer lives, then they should not take up the sword or it will turn on them.

Inherited swords can be passed down through several generations until a suitable master is found. If need be the sword can be passed down through the master brothers or sisters or even his cousins. The other option is to bury the sword with its master where it will guard its master and is deadly to grave robbers.

When the conditions are right for an Artifact to be created, these Magic Swords have a definite purpose and as such it is possible (rarely) even for someone other than a blood relative to wield the sword. This type of sword will seek out the person best suited to fulfill its purpose. Usually this person will have to undergo a series of tests in order to be found worthy.

[derv]

@theperilousdreamer, you have some cool concepts there.

In your games, how do you determine when a sword gains new power and skills? What mile stones or mechanics do you use to simulate or predict this advancement over time?

[Deleted]

I don't have much to contribute but there was a French RPG called Bloodlust (or something like that) where you played a magical weapon. You'd pick your bearer and control him/her to try and increase you own power. I don't really know much about the mechanics as it wasn't ever translated to English as far as I know. The guy at Hoggshead said he wanted to but that company shut down before he got around to it. Might be something to check out.


I always wanted to make a magic sword character class where your sword would gain XP for killing things and gain powers as it increased in level. It would lose a level if it's bearer died (which is how cursed swords are created). A sword isn't happy if it's a higher level than it's bearer so it would sabotage the wielder if the wielder was fighting a foe who would make a more suitable bearer. Making finding awesome magic weapons a risk in itself.

[derv]

Jun 6, 2015 18:51:52 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

I always wanted to make a magic sword character class where your sword would gain XP for killing things and gain powers as it increased in level.

Hmm, there might be something to this. You might be onto something.

What if you allowed a PC to relegate some of their XP to their primary weapon? There probably would have to be some restrictions or limits to how this would work. Say, 10% of earned XP could be transferred. The result would be that the PC would not level up as quickly, but the weapon could increase in power over time.

A level progression table would have to be created with possible bonuses and special abilities at each level. Class specific weapon tables could even be made. There might even be weapon titles by level if one were inclined. I'd probably lean towards making progression pretty steep beyond 1st level, which I'd consider your general +1 bonus.

[Deleted]

Jun 5, 2015 16:36:00 GMT -6 derv said:

@theperilousdreamer, you have some cool concepts there.

In your games, how do you determine when a sword gains new power and skills? What mile stones or mechanics do you use to simulate or predict this advancement over time?

I haven't had a chance to do much with it yet; however, I am beginning a new campaign in July where I can thoroughly play-test it. It will be individual with each sword/character combination. The main one will be on leveling up. However, I am working on a way to reward the brave and the bold when heroic deeds are performed. I want to tailor the sword over time to the character and personality of the PC. In addition, there will be a penalty to things for cowardly wimpy behavior.