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Post by Merctime on May 5, 2015 16:19:00 GMT -6
((Originally posted at the ruinsofmurkhill forums)) Ok, I should clarify the above: I'd like to bring up for discussion the creation of 'campaign' style dungeons, as opposed to just a one or two level dungeon. That latter type, to me, are more like lairs or adventure locations and not deep or large enough to be true, proper, 'mythical underworld' type dungeons. Also note that I might not be able to jump right into the discussion I myself am posting here because of a heavy work schedule. I don't mean this to be rude, and I'll definitely chime in when I can. I'm posting this to generally cultivate advice from people better at this than myself, anyways In that sense, I'm after what works for you all regardless if it's by the book or houseruled (so I hope I'm posting it in a proper place). So how do you folks go about creating your campaign dungeons? Please consider the following list of questions... When you design and write a level, do you already have an idea for a few main monsters and treasures? Placed as you desire? Do you do this for the whole level or some randomly? Do you have these ideas at the start for more than one level at once? When you stock the dungeon... do you pay attention to room content ratios..., such as 6 empty rooms, 3 monster with treasure, 2 trick and trap etc? Keeping the rooms in some sort of ratio together on the level? Or just write away, filling the place, ratios be d**ned? How large is the average level? One graph paper sheet? 20 rooms? 40? When you key your dungeon... do you write large, descriptive rooms like a novel or book (or, say, B1 or B2) or terse keywords that you will bounce off of in play, kind of like some of the old judges guild stuff? Do you use treasure types for outdoors or lairs only and just use dungeon treasure by level as a guide for all dungeon treasure? Or do you use treasure types in the dungeon too? Is it mostly copper and silver early on? How many levels do you think a dungeon needs to be a place you can run a campaign from, and that makes it different from just a small lair or adventure location? Do your dungeons have themes? Or areas in a level have themes? An entire themed level? No theme, just stock it with what's fun? Do you use a cross section, even a quick one, to help place and visualize level relationships? How do you come up with traps? Do most kill? How about tricks? How many magic items do you think should be on a given level? I'm always interested in hearing how others do things. Fight On!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 16:49:58 GMT -6
When you design and write a level, do you already have an idea for a few main monsters and treasures? Placed as you desire? Do you do this for the whole level or some randomly? Do you have these ideas at the start for more than one level at once? I often have a main monster and most of the other encounters in mind when I write a level. I try to leave a few slots open for random generation, mostly because this forces me to use my imagination to justify a random monster's presence. This, in turn, can often lead to great ideas to expand in subsequent levels. I try to have a reasonable firm vision in mind for at least the next 2 levels when designing a campaign dungeon level. I keep the ratio in min but I'm not a slave to it. I will use the ratio when initially planning out encounters for that level but freely alter them when actually stocking the dungeon. This varies to widely to give a reliable answer. I've been known to tape sheets of graph paper together and use different squares per inch paper to alter the available real estate. When I'm keying my dungeons for personal use, as opposed to publication, I keep it short and sweet ... almost painfully terse. I pretty much custom tailor all my treasures, though as with encounters I will use the tables to keep things from getting too predictable. No hard and fast answer to this one but shooting from the hip? I'd say 12. The deeper you go, the more strongly levels are themed. Sub-levels, no matter how deep they are, are themed. Yes, but it's usually only a crude sketch. My traps are mostly annoyances, meant to divert the group and cause them to expend resources. One in 5 or so is meant to be deadly, but they are usually guarding a specific area. Tricks I try to make imaginative and memorable though they can sometimes be deadly as well. Too variable to nail down. I like custom magic items rather than by-the-book stuff, but do include some standard items in treasure troves. I will say every level will have magic items in it, but that's a pretty broad category which includes scrolls and potions. There you go, Tim. I hope this is of some help to you. If you want me to expand upon any bullet point above, feel free to ask.
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Post by Merctime on May 5, 2015 17:11:56 GMT -6
Fantastic points, Cameron... Thank you very much for this participation! Wish I could exalt ya I love the distinction of themed areas regarding sub-levels specifically. Definitely food for thought. Not sure I'm ready to tailor treasure on my own, without the guidelines in the book yet, and still retain an OD&D feel. That's experience happening! Considering your points on magical items, specifically scrolls and potions, are those the bulk of early dungeon level magic for you? Hmm. Now that I engage you I fear that some referees who post here have players who post here also! Not trying to ask folks to inadvertently give away the farm!!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 17:31:30 GMT -6
Not sure I'm ready to tailor treasure on my own, without the guidelines in the book yet, and still retain an OD&D feel. That's experience happening! Let it all hang out! Try this: find a magic spell or magical effect you think would make a neat magic item, then build an item around that! I love homoculi, so I have a ring of homonculus summoning IMC. How about a Diadem of Proof Against Gaze Attacks, an MU only item that negates getting stoned by medusae. Everlasting Iron Rations which, so long as a bite-sized piece of the ration is left in the wrapper, will regenerate once per day. Except for the first item, which I really have IMC, I just made up all these off the top of my head. Have fun with it. I like giving expendable items for 2 reasons. First of all, it prevents a glut of permanent magic items in the game. For this reason, I also like magic items requiring charges. Second, it also encourages players to actually use the blasted things rather than hoarding them. A wounded fighter is far more likely to quaff a potion of healing if he knows the party has several and will likely find more.
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Post by scottyg on May 6, 2015 11:59:40 GMT -6
For the longest time the campaign dungeon I used was very similar in concept to Greyhawk and Blackmoor. There was a castle with a bunch of levels going down with side levels and demi-planes connected here and there. Average level size is two pieces of 8.5 x 11, 4 spi graph paper. I don’t really have set rules. Sometimes I draw the map first. Sometimes I come up with the idea for the level first and design the map around that. The maps evolve and change over the years. I usually come up with a few feature encounters that I give a lot of detail to, and then fill in the rest with an assortment of the standard monsters that would be found on that level. Recently I have been more conscious of content ratio and have been forcing myself to leave more empty rooms. Average level will have about 20 standard level encounters and 4 or 5 feature encounters. Treasure types are for outdoor lairs, but I use them as a reference when stocking the encounters. Number of levels would be up to you. 10 maybe for a campaign dundeon. Most of the levels have themes. Never cross sectioned it. I have no process for devising traps/tricks. Stealing good ideas is used a lot. I just try to be judicious with the magic items. I really don’t have a system.
Lately I’ve been throwing around ideas for a system of catacombs under a city that will have far fewer levels, but each level will be much larger. Different sections of the catacombs may be controlled by different factions, and the ‘level’ of the encounters will change in different sections of the same level. There will be clues for the PCs to pick up on to know they are entering a more dangerous section of the system. I still have a lot of fun with the traditional dungeon set up. I’m hoping to use this new setup to initiate more city-based adventures into the campaign.
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Post by dukeofchutney on May 6, 2015 15:22:54 GMT -6
I tend to decide how many sessions of dungeon crawling will happen and what sort of things i want to happen in those sessions.
20 rooms per session is roughly what i work on. They won't all be explored but its a bench mark.
I always give the dungeon a strong theme or setting.
I do monsters, traps and treasures by feel, no real system. I do tend to make my dungeons logical in my own mind to whatever rules i am giving that universe. So if its a bandit fortress, i'd decide there must be 30 bandits for the area they are terrorising so that many must be in the dungeon and the facilities for them to live in would be there. The more magical the less strict logic applies but there is always some sort of thought process behind it for me.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 11:57:38 GMT -6
First, I am not part of the "old school renaissance;" I'm just playing the game the way I always have.
Second, I'm a smartass. "Dungeon Ecology" and "realism" have no place in my game and never have. When Phil Barker (creator of Tekumel) was giving me grief about the dungeon being unrealistic and said "What do all these monsters eat, anyway?" I put a McDonald's on the sixth level.
I start with a piece of graph paper, 8 1/2 x 11. I just start doodling down rooms and corridors. Eventually something will occur to me, or perhaps not. I usually don't start with any idea of what monsters will be on the level.
If an idea for a monster encounter occurs to me, I draw the physical arrangement on the map with perhaps a note or two for when I key it.
The elaborateness of the key depends on the monster. Something unintelligent like a giant scorpion I'll just put stats. Encounters with humans or intelligent creatures I'll put notes on their capabilities and, if there are multiples... several giants, or a wizard with a hero and several swordsmen... I'll make very detailed notes. Especailly if it's a lair I'll have very elaborate plans on how the inhabitants are going to defend themselves.
For treasure I use the dungeon table; the treasure types are FAR too rich for a dungeon.
There should be 6 to 10 empty rooms for every room with something interesting in it. Magic should be scarce; I think my entire first level has two magic items.
Traps do everything from inconvenience to kill. I have no mercy on foolish or inattentive players.
The best way to dabble with magic items is making them one-shot. A little clay ball that when it's broken, you get an effect. That way if it's too powerful it only affects one encounter. Try things out, don't be afraid to see what happens. And don't be afraid to admit you made a mistake.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 12:05:15 GMT -6
First, I am not part of the "old school renaissance;" I'm just playing the game the way I always have. As am I. Like you, I've been playing since the 1970's. And, also like you, you'll never hear me using any variation of "old school renaissance" unless I'm quoting or directly referring to something somebody else said ... and for the same reason as you. We appreciate your contributions here, Mike. Thanks for your thoughts.
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randyb
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Post by randyb on May 23, 2015 12:20:23 GMT -6
Try things out, don't be afraid to see what happens. And don't be afraid to admit you made a mistake. If that's not a mantra for RPG players and DMs alike, I'm an illiterate.
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Post by Merctime on May 23, 2015 12:44:28 GMT -6
We appreciate your contributions here, Mike. Thanks for your thoughts. I not only echo this sentiment with total zeal, I include yourself in it, Mr. DuBeers. Thank you both, and everyone, for your input in this thread. Most excellent advice to be had!
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Post by Merctime on May 23, 2015 17:43:18 GMT -6
Pardon the double-post, please!
Gronan, I'm really curious. How do you approach monster populations on dungeon levels deeper than those given in volume 3?
Also, do you sometimes place large numbers of lesser hit die creatures deeper than, say, the 1st or 2nd level of the dungeon?
Anyone else that would like to chime in on the above question, please feel free! Again, thank you all for your input here.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 20:06:25 GMT -6
I don't know offhand how deep Vol. 3 goes. But for instance a Balrog is a 10th level monster. 1 Balrog is tough, 2 or 3 Balrogs is really tough.
And how about a 15 HD Balrog Prince, with 6 10 HD Balrog Servitors, along with 20 or 30 Ogres and the same number of Hell Hounds, not to mention platoons of Orcs running around (with horns and drums to give the alarm.)
doom, doom...
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 23, 2015 22:08:07 GMT -6
U&WA has a MONSTER DETERMINATION AND LEVEL OF MONSTER MATRIX (p10), which specifies which "Monster Level Table Number" to consult by dungeon level, down to dungeon level "13+". Whether you wanted to develop deeper Monster Level Tables would be up to you. However, by the book, dungeon levels 13 and deeper would always use Monster Level Table 6, which includes Giants, Dragons, Chimeras, Vampires, Lords, Wizards, EHPs, Purple Worms, etc. In the early prints (up to 4th, I think) table 6 included Balrogs (number appearing 1-6). In the later prints (5th+) Balrogs were replaces by Spectres. Note how monsters from table 6 can also show up as early as dungeon level 3 (one of the great features of OD&D)! FWIW, Balrogs have 10 hit dice but also some significant additional powers (including 75% magic resistance, immolation for 2-4 dice damage, and multiple attacks in fantastic combat), so would possibly "rank" higher then their HD alone might suggest.
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Post by bestialwarlust on May 24, 2015 9:03:53 GMT -6
Strangely enough I don't make a lot of dungeons it really depends on what my group explores. The two dungeons I used recently weren't of my own design. I ran my group through some of barrow maze and that was fun. I also used dungeon of the unknown, with that I didn't do any prep work. I just used the very brief room description and made up what I thought it meant on the spot. I wanted to do it that way as an exercise in imagination and spontaneous creativity. I also didn't write any of it down so that every time I use that dungeon it will be completely different. My favorite part was sometimes coming up with something completely nonsensical, so that when I had one of my players remark "d**n these old school dungeons being so non sensical" in frustration. I made the next room even more nonsensical than the last they were in .
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Post by geoffrey on May 24, 2015 15:50:14 GMT -6
I'm a smartass. "Dungeon Ecology" and "realism" have no place in my game and never have. When Phil Barker (creator of Tekumel) was giving me grief about the dungeon being unrealistic and said "What do all these monsters eat, anyway?" I put a McDonald's on the sixth level. That's one of my favorite anecdotes.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 16:35:59 GMT -6
I should see if I can find the key for that level; it has 1974 McDonald's prices translated into D&D coinage.
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Post by coffee on May 24, 2015 22:09:42 GMT -6
I should see if I can find the key for that level; it has 1974 McDonald's prices translated into D&D coinage. I'd love to see that! Actually, I'd just love to see a 1974 McDonald's menu again -- just to see how much has changed.
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Post by Zenopus on May 25, 2015 9:52:33 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 11:08:20 GMT -6
Since this was before the days of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," we had to make do with quoting "Bored of the Rings."
I have the Oink-Oink Burger and Bow-Wow Special on the menu.
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Post by Merctime on May 25, 2015 14:37:50 GMT -6
Coke! No Pepsi!! Cheeseburger Cheeseburger Cheeseburger!!
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Post by Stormcrow on May 27, 2015 11:21:48 GMT -6
FWIW, Balrogs have 10 hit dice but also some significant additional powers (including 75% magic resistance, immolation for 2-4 dice damage, and multiple attacks in fantastic combat), so would possibly "rank" higher then their HD alone might suggest. In the D&D FAQ, Gary says that for purposes of determining experience point value, a Balrog is at least 12th level. I don't know if he would have considered that when deciding what a monster's "home" level is.
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