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Post by Vile Traveller on May 4, 2015 9:32:24 GMT -6
I have to say I've played no wargames and only few skirmish games in my time. I'm tempted to give Chainmail a try one day (when I have a hell of a lot more and smaller figures), but I'd also like to know if anyone has any experience with other fantasy tabletop miniature battle systems out there, and has anything good to say about them?
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Post by chicagowiz on May 4, 2015 10:02:05 GMT -6
Off the top of my head:
HOTT - Hordes of the Things. Pros: You don't need a lot of figures. Very adaptable. Cons: A lot of abstraction, both in unit types and in combat itself. The older versions suffered from a version of English called "Barkerese" after the author (Phil Barker) who tended to word things... interestingly. Battles can be very quick. I haven't played the 2.1 version, so I don't know all the new changes.
Book of War. Pros: Very simple, quick, fun. Uses "D&D Math" so porting monsters and races is easy. Easy to understand the armor class and system. With some jiggering, very adaptable to including in a campaign and even including your PCs as a participant (as long as they are higher level.) Con: 1:10 scale, so if you want to have a big battle, you need lots of figures.
I highly recommend that you find some local friends and try several games out - to get a feel for what is most fun for you.
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 4, 2015 23:47:59 GMT -6
....The older versions suffered from a version of English called "Barkerese" after the author (Phil Barker) who tended to word things... interestingly. "Barkerese" Heh.  Now that you mention it, I just happen to be rereading WRG's Ancients (6th ed.) rules for the umpteenth time. You have to grit your teeth and endure Barker's pretentiously convoluted syntax -- a linguistic Gordian Knot if there ever was one! There's a good game in there somewhere if you have the true machismo to grab it by the throat and tell it who's boss.  Cry Havoc is kinda fun -- if you can stomach the d20-isms. It's okay, but it ultimately drove me to more serious historicals in order to adapt them to fantasy. Rules written by fantasy RPG authors these days show plainly that they were written by people with no historical wargaming background, IMO. I've also got something called Shock of Impact, but haven't had the chance to run it through its paces. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 5, 2015 1:25:14 GMT -6
Does anyone have any experience with the original Warhammer? I almost got into it back in the day but then it went all spiky on me.
I should probably clarify that I'm really looking at war games as opposed to skirmish games - i.e. units rather than individuals (no idea whether that's the correct definition, but it's my definition).
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Post by chicagowiz on May 5, 2015 6:26:06 GMT -6
Vile Traveller - I do not. Just Chainmail, HOTT and Book of War. They are unit based games.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 5, 2015 6:34:36 GMT -6
I've tried a couple of rules sets, and none seem as elegant to me as Chainmail.
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Post by chicagowiz on May 5, 2015 12:52:18 GMT -6
@finarvyn - if we can ever sync schedules, I'd love to demo Book of War to you. I think you'd like it a lot. |
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Post by Merctime on May 5, 2015 15:00:50 GMT -6
I've just got to try chainmail one of these days. I'm assuming one could use home-made chits as opposed to a plethora of mini's? And, delta's book of war is terribly intriguing. I echo Vile's desire to try this out, but have to admit my own purposes are (possibly) more firmly in the 'use for d&d'zone. Guess I'll have to try to locate both and give em a shot. Thanks for bringing this up, Vile! And you guys too for chiming in |
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Post by derv on May 5, 2015 15:21:28 GMT -6
Does anyone have any experience with the original Warhammer? No experience with Oldhammer or Warhammer, but, from my understanding, Mantic Games produces a Warhammerish set of rules called Kings of War. They are currently updating the rule set after a successful Kickstarter. The previous 32 page iteration is free to download at their web site. Mantic Games free rulesIf you want to look at the original 12 page rule book and army lists from 2010, they can still be found at this blog. The old Heritage rule set Knights and Magick is worth checking out. It even has a section on D&D conversions. It is a very complete set of rules, but is unfortunately not free. The pdf can be purchased for $12 from The Gaming GangReally though, you should give Chainmail a go, too |
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 5, 2015 16:34:45 GMT -6
I've just got to try chainmail one of these days. I'm assuming one could use home-made chits as opposed to a plethora of mini's? Yup! I recommend using EGG's article on unit symbology from SR (April '76).  |
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Post by Merctime on May 5, 2015 16:37:20 GMT -6
Thanks, DD! I'll look that up and check it out.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 16:42:29 GMT -6
Much as I loves me some CHAINMAIL, its expense is a drawback. I got a 3rd edition 4th or 5th printing (includes Ents, Hobbits, and Balrogs) and it cost me $40.
The dang thing is just too expensive.
Hmm. You can't patent or copyright a game system.... what if I rewrote it in my own words....?
"Maille of Chain: Rules for Medieval Miniatures Wargames"
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Post by Merctime on May 8, 2015 16:48:39 GMT -6
Please do not tease, Sir |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 9:51:06 GMT -6
I got at least two other projects to finish first... no, three.. or is it four?
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Post by Merctime on May 9, 2015 13:16:24 GMT -6
The number of the counting is "Three".
"One... Two... Five!"
"Three, Sir."
"...Three!"
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 14:13:20 GMT -6
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Post by angelicdoctor on May 10, 2015 5:18:47 GMT -6
Has anyone tried Troll Lord Games' Fields of Battle?
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Post by Starbeard on Jun 1, 2015 6:03:42 GMT -6
Does anyone have any experience with the original Warhammer? I almost got into it back in the day but then it went all spiky on me. I should probably clarify that I'm really looking at war games as opposed to skirmish games - i.e. units rather than individuals (no idea whether that's the correct definition, but it's my definition). I do. To be honest, the original box set is the only version of Warhammer I have any interest in, and I think it's brilliant (and this is as someone who generally gags at anything touched by GW). The Force of Fantasy supplement is either considered necessary or blasphemous based on your point of view: the original box had no point values or army lists, just a bestiary list of fantasy races and monsters, with the assumption that you'd put your own armies together, 'game balance' be d**ned. Force of Fantasy added lists for a bunch of generic fantasy armies, and placed fixed point values for each unit type. It also further divorced Warhammer the war game from Warhammer the RPG. Consequently, I have almost 0% interested in FoF except for the odd tidbit here or there. The original game was billed as a 'mass battle RPG', and when you read the three booklets it's obvious that it was conceived as both at the same time. You can use the exact same rules to run a traditional dungeon crawl RPG, a battle with thousands of models per side, both at once or anything in between. The RPG stats are a bit like OD&D in that they're very loosely defined. There are a few recommendations on how the Gamesmaster might use them when dicing for things, but otherwise it's assumed that you'll house rule it with your group. In that sense original Warhammer feels a lot like Chainmail+OD&D, if not quite as far-reaching in its ambitions. |
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Post by philotomy on Jul 20, 2015 22:04:36 GMT -6
I like Field of Glory (ancient/medieval).
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Post by sepulchre on Jul 23, 2015 23:04:50 GMT -6
Osprey's Lion Rampant.
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 27, 2015 7:59:13 GMT -6
I have to say I've played no wargames and only few skirmish games in my time. I'm tempted to give Chainmail a try one day (when I have a hell of a lot more and smaller figures), but I'd also like to know if anyone has any experience with other fantasy tabletop miniature battle systems out there, and has anything good to say about them? Have you checked out Delta's Book of War? It has helped me greatly w/a wilderness adventure I am currently running. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2015 7:43:48 GMT -6
I hope that it is allowed to necro resurrect a discussion, but I was reading the posts above and wargaming has been a hobby for me as much as rpgs (using paper figures mostly). One set of rules I would recommend for fantasy is the re-edition of Knights & Magick. It was a 1979 ruleset from Heritage, able to cope with skirmish gaming up to mass battles, historical or fantasy and had rules for campaigns and seiges as well. And even instructions to convert monsters from D&D to Knights & Magick. The rules are easy, but the book is bursting with informations and useful ideas (almost 200 pages), well worth the 12.95$ for the pdf (but you can choose a softcover or a coiled bound and the hardback is a treat). The re-edition is just a reprint of the 1979 rules which is perfect for me, as I loved the game at the time. |
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Post by kesher on Nov 9, 2015 6:50:29 GMT -6
On this board, no thread is ever dead... |
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Post by religon on Nov 9, 2015 9:20:10 GMT -6
I've played a great number of miniatures games. I'll share my BoardGameGeek ratings. I normally rate miniatures games lower than board games.
I would consider two most strongly. (I've ran them both within D&D as mass combat.)
1) True Mass combat spectacle. Either of the Richard Borg designed games: Battlelore or C&C Ancients. The former is fantasy, but the later is a touch better game. Both are excellent. The fantasy modifications to C&C Ancients are easy and intuitive. Needs a table-sized hex grid/mat to play. Commercial ones available.
2) A very D&D large-skirmish game. I think BattleSystem (2nd Ed.) is as good a game as many rivals... WFB especially. The fact that D&D monsters are defined in their own terms makes it ideal for a D&D centric combat.
Standouts:
BattleSystem (2nd Ed.): 6.5
LOTR Strategy Battle Game (Skirmish): 7
LOTR: War of the Ring (Mass Combat): 6.5
Saga (historical Dark Ages): 7
Commands & Colors Ancients (with miniatures): 10
BattleLore (1st Ed.): 8
Kings of War: I've read it and the local WFB 8th Ed. crowd is attempting to adopt it as their core ruleset. It looks as good as WFB.
I've read Battlelore 2nd Ed. It looks like if played I'd rate it about the same as 1st Edition.
Contenders:
Warhammer (3rd Ed.): 5*
Warhammer (8th Ed.): 6
Field of Glory: 5*
BattleSystem (1st Ed.): 5.5*
Waken the Storm: 6 (of the Sword and the Flame family of games)
Ancient & Medieval Wargaming: 5.5
HOTT: 5*
Warmachine (D&D Inesert game): 5* (This is more abstract, but it resolves battles.)
* Least played. Six or fewer games for each.
Stinkers: Vis Bellica, Warmaster, Fields of Battle, AD&D Battlesystem Skirmishes
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Post by sepulchre on Nov 9, 2015 9:28:52 GMT -6
Bhoritz wrote:
Couldn't afford it as a kid, but was always curious about it. Had a great exchange with the gentleman behind the reissue and purchased the hardcover about a year ago. It's a fantastic rule set; employing a curved distribution (d10 and d6-1 IIRC)and mechanics that bear some semblance, especially list combat, to Chainmail. The books are full of information to elaborating period military units accompanied by a morale value. It's well worth the time and money spent.
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Post by rsdean on Nov 11, 2015 4:56:42 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 18:00:55 GMT -6
Very interesting posts (and you seem to have quite enjoyable wargaming sessions). Peoples interested in K&M should read you first post particularly to have a good description of the game. Reading your after battle reports have let me itching to draw some figures and scenery and have a go at fantasy again (wargaming in my group have been historical lately). Maybe to insert a few battles in my rpg campaign.... |
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Post by rsdean on Nov 12, 2015 4:58:49 GMT -6
Thanks. I might also mention that my friend Ross and I are working on home rules for mass fantasy battles, which we expect to be running during next year's convention cycle: gatheringofhosts.blogspot.ca/p/new-morschauser-based-gathering-of.htmlThese are intended to be fast and furious, and allow us to put a lot of figures on the table. The rules are very old school, based on Joseph Morschauser's 1962 book How to Play War Games in Miniature. Tentatively, the cut off date for miniatures we'll use for this will be 1980. I'd have gone for something of the actual period, but wargames rules were going through a fussily detailed patch in the late '70's, which wasn't quite what I wanted, so we decided to reach a little farther back. More on this later; I haven't got time this morning to shrink some pictures... |
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Post by rsdean on Nov 12, 2015 10:56:18 GMT -6
Here are some pictures from a recent home rules game:  That's the table set up; orcish raiders to the left, Empire and aillies to the right.  Here's the Imperial allies, elves and ents, arraying to receive an orcish charge. The elf spear,en are old Heritgae/Custom Cast figures, the ents and elf archers at the not quite in focus ends are old Minifig ME figures.  The majority of my orcs, at the moment, are Prince August homecasts, but the forthcoming rerelease of the Ral Partha Collector's series elf and orc armies may alter that. |
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Post by rsdean on Nov 12, 2015 11:04:04 GMT -6
Another "blast from the past" possibility coming out is Ral Partha's Chaos Wars, which they are reissuing in an expanded version in conjunction with the rerelease of the elves and orcs. It's a quick play set of rules, relatively basing agnostic, with intended unit sizes of 12 foot or 6 mounted, plus miscellaneous monsters and personalities.
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