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Post by achijusan on Apr 29, 2015 10:31:43 GMT -6
Thinking about allowing fighters to use all cleric and magic user wands, staves, and rods; as well as allowing them to read scrolls in my next game- after all, in the real world; anyone can shoot a gun or learn to read - why should Magic Users and Clerics have all the fun?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 12:19:05 GMT -6
Any fighter can, BTB, as long as they multi-class into magic-user or cleric first. So they'll need the proper Prime Req. Of course, you could just wave that requirement if that makes sense in your campaign.
I generally require that character make an Int check (d8+Int mod >= 8) to see if they can grasp how magic works. I only give them three chances. After that, their rational mind refuses to see the true hidden magical reality lurking beneath the surface.
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Post by talysman on Apr 29, 2015 12:58:33 GMT -6
The big question is: what are you going to do about Read Magic? By the book, found scrolls can only be used if you cast Read Magic first.
Second question: What's different about the Magic-User and Thief, then? You could require spell fumble rolls for fighters reading from scrolls, vs. thieves who only fumble high-level spells, and Magic-Users who never fumble.
I'd allow anyone to use any scroll they know the spell for. Learning a spell requires expensive magical research, and non-magic-users can't cast spells except by using a scroll. Wands perhaps could be usable by anyone who knows that specific spell.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 13:15:06 GMT -6
The big question is: what are you going to do about Read Magic? By the book, found scrolls can only be used if you cast Read Magic first. Read Magic is one of the mental powers that magic swords can have (1 in 6 chance). [Vol 2 pg 28] |
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idrahil
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Post by idrahil on Apr 29, 2015 18:40:30 GMT -6
The big question is: what are you going to do about Read Magic? By the book, found scrolls can only be used if you cast Read Magic first. Read Magic is one of the mental powers that magic swords can have (1 in 6 chance). [Vol 2 pg 28] I would definitely allow a fighting man to use scrolls in this case. It would make a sword with a seemingly "weak" ability very powerful to the fighter. |
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Post by talysman on Apr 29, 2015 19:38:39 GMT -6
Read Magic is one of the mental powers that magic swords can have (1 in 6 chance). [Vol 2 pg 28] I would definitely allow a fighting man to use scrolls in this case. It would make a sword with a seemingly "weak" ability very powerful to the fighter. Right, but the OP is about letting fighters do it without a magic sword. Like I said, you have to decide then what to do about Read Magic, both the spell and the magic sword ability. Does it still work, just better than you'd fare without it? Do you cut it completely? Or do you change the way the spell and power work so they do something unrelated to using scrolls? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 20:12:54 GMT -6
Why not just eliminate classes so everybody can be a Fightermagicuserthiefcleric?
Or play RuneQuest or Fantasy Trip, which have been doing that for 35 years.
"What if there were no asinine hypothetical questions?"
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 30, 2015 4:34:06 GMT -6
I think that Gronan makes an excellent point. Either you have a RPG where anyone can do any thing (such as Runequest, which is a point-based game) or you build templates where each character has certain things they can do that others cannot (such as OD&D, which is a class-based game).
Blurring the two together ruins some of the special feel of the classes, IMO.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Apr 30, 2015 5:28:46 GMT -6
I would be surprised if this was a serious question.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 7:02:51 GMT -6
You never sat around TSR circa 1976 and listened to Gary read letters from gamers aloud.
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Post by jcstephens on Apr 30, 2015 11:26:08 GMT -6
This proposal is contrary to both the letter and spirit of the rules. That having been said, it's your game and you may do as you like. Give it a try and let us know how it works out.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 30, 2015 11:37:30 GMT -6
I suppose that it could stem from certain literature where characters can do more than one thing well, such as Elric who is both a fighting man and a spellcaster. I also find that large parties of characters might have representatives of each class, but smaller parties (or solo play) often causes characters to be missing key abilities like being able to pick pockets or turn undead. I would be more inclined to bend the rules for magic items for smaller groups rather than larger groups.
I think you might be able to handle the issue through multi-classing -- if a character has at least one level in a particular class he/she can use magic items, etc, as per that class. This works best IMO if you use a unified XP chart such as found in 3E-5E so that adding a level in a new class is equally as difficult as adding a level in an old class.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 12:28:43 GMT -6
But some people persist in failing their perception checks. Like you, for instance. Wait, you're actually trying to school Gronan by throwing Gygax quotes at him!!! [runs for cover] |
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Post by talysman on Apr 30, 2015 13:23:17 GMT -6
The best thing to do about this thread is to actually take it as a serious discussion in the same spirit: what are the ramifications of changing the rules about scroll and wand use for fighters? Each character role has been designed with care in order to provide varied and unique approaches to solving the problems which confront the players. If characters are not kept distinct, they will soon merge into one super-character. Not only would this destroy the variety
of the game, but it would also kill the game, for the super-character
would soon have nothing left to challenge him or her, and the players would grow bored and move on to something which was fun. Based on that emphasized bit: the real reason for the distinctions between classes is to provide variety WHILE keeping some things a challenge. Characters should not be able to do everything equally well. That's different than being allowed a chance to do something outside the norm for a class. You could allow some minor cross-over abilities: allow M-Us to wear armor but be treated as over-burdened, allow them to use any weapon, but at zero level ability, allow fighters to read scrolls, but at great peril. There are a range of possible modifications you could do. Take a look at gronan's suggestion of using Runequest or The Fantasy Trip if you don't want strict classes. Thing is, those two counterproposals aren't the same. The Fantasy Trip does indead have classes, just fewer than D&D. And wizards can wear armor or use swords, and heroes can learn spells; it's just that each class has a harder time learning/using stuff outside its bailiwick. So TFT is between the extremes of Runequest and D&D, which means that the distinction between class-and-level exploration fantasy and skill, talent, ability, or feat fantasy games are not as sharp or invariant as you might think. Is it cheating for a GM to change those rules? No. Should a player worry about having a character they can take to any table? No. Every table is different, and it is pointless to worry about the rules in effect at a table until you play at that table. |
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Post by Porphyre on Apr 30, 2015 21:09:51 GMT -6
I suppose that it could stem from certain literature where characters can do more than one thing well, I have no precise example (except maybe The Lords of Quarmall Leiber story) to back my assertions, but I had the feelings that , in literature or legend, when some hero-type is bestowed a magical help in his quest - that otherwise would be considered way over his capacities, such tem is often given by some older , wiser, more powerful mentor, and are often a one-trick objects. In other terms, I wouldn't mind youre typical FM having a chance to use some scroll/wand/staff if it is a particular lituation, to help them in one specific task, if said object has been given to some adjuvant , with a precise set of instructions. "Anyone can shoot a gun" : actually, without proper training, people are most likely to hurt themselves "or learn to read":but it is still required to have learned. That is what classe are all about : a MU is precisely the ones who are learnt in the way of scrolls and magical items. |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 1, 2015 6:38:08 GMT -6
Please, no trolling threads. I know I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you posted it and tried to give legitimate responses, as did others. Now it's turned into an argument. I cleaned up the thread, but consider this a warning.
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Post by Red Baron on May 1, 2015 11:44:50 GMT -6
I allow fighting men to use them.
Fighting men will have no idea what spell is on a scroll without read magic, no idea what a wand/staff/rod can do without contact higher plane, etc.
That is a big limitation. A fighting-man needs to be on very good terms with a magic-user or pay a lot of money to access those spells.
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 1, 2015 19:52:55 GMT -6
I have to say it never occurred to me before, but certainly the (possibly disastrous) use of scrolls by non-magic users has a solid foundation in fiction where people are always dabbling in magic when they know nothing about it. I'm certainly going to try this in my next game, similar to the "use scroll" ability of some thieves. Sounds like fun! Need to watch Evil Dead again now. |
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Post by Red Baron on May 1, 2015 20:01:34 GMT -6
I have to say it never occurred to me before, but certainly the (possibly disastrous) use of scrolls by non-magic users has a solid foundation in fiction where people are always dabbling in magic when they know nothing about it. I'm certainly going to try this in my next game, similar to the "use scroll" ability of some thieves. Sounds like fun! One npc magic-user in the dungeon has a scroll of fly which is actually a fireball  A trap I'm very proud of. |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 2, 2015 6:01:42 GMT -6
I have to say it never occurred to me before, but certainly the (possibly disastrous) use of scrolls by non-magic users has a solid foundation in fiction where people are always dabbling in magic when they know nothing about it. I'm certainly going to try this in my next game, similar to the "use scroll" ability of some thieves. Sounds like fun! One npc magic-user in the dungeon has a scroll of fly which is actually a fireball A trap I'm very proud of. That is so mean ... I love it! I'd feel a little guilty about playing this trick on a magic-user because my players would argue that he ought to be able to tell the difference, but certainly for a thief (or fighter?) who thought he was hot stuff it would be fun to watch him blow himself up. Great idea, though. Must ponder further.... |
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Post by Fearghus on May 2, 2015 8:23:36 GMT -6
I have to say it never occurred to me before, but certainly the (possibly disastrous) use of scrolls by non-magic users has a solid foundation in fiction where people are always dabbling in magic when they know nothing about it. I'm certainly going to try this in my next game, similar to the "use scroll" ability of some thieves. Sounds like fun! One npc magic-user in the dungeon has a scroll of fly which is actually a fireball A trap I'm very proud of. Wouldn't 'read magic' actually reveal the capability of the scroll? Or is the trick that there is an illusion on it that can only be revealed via detect magic. |
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Post by Red Baron on May 2, 2015 9:21:36 GMT -6
One npc magic-user in the dungeon has a scroll of fly which is actually a fireball A trap I'm very proud of. Wouldn't 'read magic' actually reveal the capability of the scroll? Or is the trick that there is an illusion on it that can only be revealed via detect magic. I don't require read magic to cast spells. A read magic would reveal it to be a scroll of fireball, but a pc who doesn't double check that before trying to use it is in for a nasty surprise. |
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Post by Fearghus on May 2, 2015 9:51:12 GMT -6
lol
I hate to admit it but I'd probably have a character die to that before I thought the DM was tricking me.
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Post by coffee on May 5, 2015 6:48:33 GMT -6
Regarding the mislabeled Wand of Fireball: ...a thief (or fighter?) who thought he was hot stuff... I see what you did there. |
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