Castles and Taxes for Wizards?

[waysoftheearth]

M&M tells us that Lords and Patriarchs who build castles can collect taxes from the local population, but nothing is said for Wizards.

U&WA goes on to explain (p15-16) that players can come across castles occupied by non-player Lords (and superheroes), Patriarchs, Evil High Priests, and by Wizards (and Necromancers).

Non-player M-Us can occupy castles, so it makes sense that player M-Us can build and occupy castles too. But can they collect taxes?
U&WA seems to imply they can on p24 where it discusses "player/character" Baronies and collecting revenue as a general rule for all players.

FWIW, the AD&D PHB also (p25) states that a Wizard can collect 5sp per inhabitant per month in revenues (with the fighters now collecting 7sp, and the clerics 9sp).


So... could the lack of taxes for M-Us simply be an omission from M&M?


Perhaps Gronan can remember whether any of the earliest M-Us collected taxes?

[coffee]

This doesn't answer your question with published rules, but here's my take.

If a Wizard builds a tower in an area and clears the land, and people live there (or move there), a more important question would be:

"Can anybody stop them from collecting taxes?"

[Red Baron]

Magic users don't need taxes because they don't need armies: that's what the charm monster spell is for.

However, I believe it is merely an omission.

[Porphyre]

MU don't care for something as pedestrian as taxes and money : they extort magic items from passing adventurers and Geas them into collecting treasure for them.

[talysman]

Yeah, in general, M-Us are busy making magic items. Not only would they not want to manage a barony, they probably don't want anyone living nearby, so they can perform fearsome experiments without interruption or angering the populace.

[Red Baron]

Apr 20, 2015 0:24:42 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

MU don't care for something as pedestrian as taxes and money : they extort magic items from passing adventurers and Geas them into collecting treasure for them.

This is the correct answer; see:

"Magic-users from castles will send passersby after treasure by Geas if they are not hostile, with the magic-user taking at least half of all treasure so gained, the magic-user having first choice of magical items and automatically choosing miscellaneous magic, wands/staves, or rings (in that order) in preference to other items. Otherwise, the magic-user will require a magical item from the passersby as toll, and if they have no magical items suitable for use the magic-user will require a toll of from 1000 to 4000 Gold Pieces."

-TU&WA p15.

[waysoftheearth]

Yes, I'm aware of the business of the M-U geasing passers-by to collect treasure. This could be read as equivalent to the fighter jousting passers-by for their magic armor, which doesn't prevent the fighter from also collecting taxes from the locals

I'm still interested to hear whether or not name level M-Us taxed the locals, back in the day.

[Deleted]

It's a bloody omission, especially since it talks about collecting revenues in other places in the text.

[Porphyre]

Mad wizards built dungeons to attract monsters then use them as spell components and sell spare parts on the Alchemist market.

[Porphyre]

Gronan says that was an oversight, so I'm going to believe it, but, taking as face-value the fact that M-U are omitted from the "canonical" rules of tax-gathering leads to interesting situations: as I said before, I envision high -level wizards as rather disinvested in land-ruling and tax gathering : their lofty intellects being more absorbed in magical studies and tampering with the very fabric of the universe.
But M-U need gold, too: magical research is expensive , and -well- one can be a wizard and still want a little material comfort.
So , what will the wizard do (when he can't ransom a geas bassing by travellers)?
Well, my ! He does recruit lower level adventurers to do the dirty job for him : promising them a cut of the gold and magic items, like the sorcerer in Alladin's tale ("You can have all the gold, but the lamp is mine ! "). Thus you have old wizened tower dwelling sorcerers as quest-givers , just like in tales and literature .

[Deleted]

Alternatively, that is what the "seneschal" is for.

For that matter, let's combine the ideas! When you're a Superhero, some Wizard offers you a deal! He's got this perfectly good castle and lands, and as long as he gets (a certain amount of gold) per month and you don't enter The Tower Where Shines ye Mysterious Light without invitation, you can live in the castle and treat it and the domains as your own! From time to time the Wizard may need somebody to run little errands for him, but hey, that's just an opportunity for adventure, loot, and XP! ("Exactly what does a Xorn pancreas look like, anyway? Any of you buggers got any idea which of these little wobbly bits it is?")

[Porphyre]

You can also have Wizards as the often seen figure of the king's counselor.

[Deleted]

If the Grand Vizier has a goatee, kill him on the spot and save a lot of grief later.

[coffee]

May 2, 2015 10:43:33 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Well, my ! He does recruit lower level adventurers to do the dirty job for him : promising them a cut of the gold and magic items, like the sorcerer in Alladin's tale ("You can have all the gold, but the lamp is mine ! "). Thus you have old wizened tower dwelling sorcerers as quest-givers , just like in tales and literature .

Also you answer the question: "If this is such an important thing, why isn't the powerful wizard doing it himself?" I can't count the times I've heard low level characters ask that (including, on occasion, myself).

[Porphyre]

Yep, the wizard can have more important things to do
"You deal with the dragon, I have a Necromancer to kick out of Dol Guldur !"

[Deleted]

May 5, 2015 6:43:47 GMT -6 coffee said:

May 2, 2015 10:43:33 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Well, my ! He does recruit lower level adventurers to do the dirty job for him : promising them a cut of the gold and magic items, like the sorcerer in Alladin's tale ("You can have all the gold, but the lamp is mine ! "). Thus you have old wizened tower dwelling sorcerers as quest-givers , just like in tales and literature .

Also you answer the question: "If this is such an important thing, why isn't the powerful wizard doing it himself?" I can't count the times I've heard low level characters ask that (including, on occasion, myself).

"I have to stay here and tend my alembics." Or even "I have better things to do than go hunt Xorn pancreases. Pancrei?"

[Red Baron]

May 5, 2015 6:43:47 GMT -6 coffee said:

May 2, 2015 10:43:33 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Well, my ! He does recruit lower level adventurers to do the dirty job for him : promising them a cut of the gold and magic items, like the sorcerer in Alladin's tale ("You can have all the gold, but the lamp is mine ! "). Thus you have old wizened tower dwelling sorcerers as quest-givers , just like in tales and literature .

Also you answer the question: "If this is such an important thing, why isn't the powerful wizard doing it himself?" I can't count the times I've heard low level characters ask that (including, on occasion, myself).

Now, if I was a wizard and wanted to get some petty item I couldn't be bothered to go fetch, would I risk my life conjuring up an efrit to get it?

Or would I tell some gullible local funkies that the world will end if they don't bring me the "powerful" "evil" object.

[howandwhy99]

(Thread necromancy)

Magic-Users aren't interested in ruling territory (F-M) or raising a congregation of followers (CLR) both possibilities leading to being the civil authority. M-Us are like Sages. They seek greater magical knowledge and ability. Those who come to them are Followers, but they don't attract full on communities. M-Us may support a community they are within, but are sidetracked from their class focus if put in charge. The other two classes have focuses more or less aided by being in charge. Though theocracies and holy sees are rare in my book.

Still, Players can try anything they d**n well please. And I don't see why there isn't the occasional M-U in charge of a town or country, variable situations do arise after all. But I don't count these places as magical institutions.

Of course I seem to remember someone building up an entire city called Greyhawk just to support their magic habit.

[oldkat]

Apr 20, 2015 18:50:44 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

It's a bloody omission, especially since it talks about collecting revenues in other places in the text.

I can support this. Especially since Magic-users are defined (see M&M, p.6) as veritable magic stores; capable of cranking out goods for public sale as quickly and as voluminous as they wish.

Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical.

[tetramorph]

I certainly allow any character to have a barony. A barony is a feudal unit based upon fealty, not what "playing class" you are.

However, IMC I have a "settlement hedge against magic," much like the stronghold hedge against monsters.

So it behooves MUs to live in hide-y-holes and out of the way, sequestered places. And if they have a barony, to keep it quite small and isolated. Even if they are lawful!

This seems true to the material for me, whether S&S or more traditional legend and myth.

No complaints from players yet. They get the deal.

[hamurai]

We made it depend on the exact setting we played. In a setting where magic is more of a "dark art", our player MU's couldn't have their own barony but could build their tower as part of a castle and then add a little to the gold collected (their share).
In a setting where magic was openly accepted, MU's could have their own baronies or "mages guild" or magic store. All these options were effectively in game terms a barony and they could collect revenues. The difference was more in the fluff and story, as a barony implied more of a "ruler and subjects" relationship, a mages guild was more like "teacher and students", while a store was generating money without the benefit of having people (apart from an assistant maybe) to do stuff for you.

[Starbeard]

Interesting, I missed this thread before.

Probably like many others, I read the lack of MU taxes mentioned in M&M p. 6 as trumping the general rule about baronial villages in W&UA p. 24.

My interpretation was that MU castles are in essence wizard towers, and therefore don't automatically set up villages and collect tax. If the other classes build a castle, it becomes the centre of a barony and they automatically get taxes from the 2-8 nearest villages, or if there are none then 2-8 new villages will naturally spring up around it for protection, and those get taxed. In contrast, MU towers are isolating by nature and don't automatically develop a village or baronial economy around them. However, if you as a MU do manage to bring a village under your control, then by all means repress with all the violence inherent in the system.

Considering that MU castles were intended to take tax, I wonder what the base tax would be. From AD&D it seems they should get the least money, so 5g compared to the Lord's 10g and the Patriarch's 20g?

[robertthebald]

By the time I was ensconced in Cloudtop, Robert the Bald was very wealthy from treasures won on my adventures. It never occurred to me to have to raise money by taxes, or by any other means. I did raise an army, which eventually was borrowed by the other players to repel an invasion. I did not really have a use for the army any more, so I told the guys to just keep it. After that, a tribe of elves wandered into my area, took a liking to me, and I invited them to settle there. They attracted more elves that also settled there.

[Porphyre]

Aug 31, 2017 11:32:00 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

However, if you as a MU do manage to bring a village under your control, then by all means repress with all the violence inherent in the system.

Remided me of the Wizard's Tale