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Post by Fearghus on Mar 21, 2015 9:52:53 GMT -6
It is likely in the book but I am missing it, and my search on the board was not successful.
Thieves increase in level for every 125,000xp after 10th: 250,000; 375,000, etc.
What is the number for the fighting-men, magic-users and clerics? I was assuming 120,000; 100,000 and 50,000 respectively.
Now that I type this out, should I have simply doubled their last xp requirement: 240,000; 300,000 and 100,000? Or something else?
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Post by talysman on Mar 21, 2015 10:40:50 GMT -6
Magic-Users definitely require +100,000 xp per level. They hit 100,000 xp at 9th level, and we have examples of the levels after that, showing it is +100,000 per level.
We don't have examples for Fighter or Cleric levels after name level, and you are right that there's no clear statement. By comparing OD&D to AD&D and other early versions, most people use +100,000 per level for clerics and +120,000 per level for fighter. What I think the intention was was: when the class reaches name level or passes the 100,000 xp mark, use that final xp level as the xp needed per level thereafter.
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Post by Fearghus on Mar 21, 2015 10:53:51 GMT -6
What I think the intention was was: when the class reaches name level or passes the 100,000 xp mark, use that final xp level as the xp needed per level thereafter. Ok, that makes sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 17:23:29 GMT -6
I'll be darned, it's not in there.
I'll tell you how Gary actually played it; after name level, each additional level was the cost of originally getting to name level.
a 9th level Patriarch needed 100,000 XP to get from 8th to 9th level, and an additional 100,00 if they wanted to go from 9th to 10th, etc.
A 10th level Lord needed 240,000 XP to get from 9th to 10th level, and an additional 240,000 XP per level.
An 11th level Wizard needed 300,000 XP to get from 11th to 12th level, then an additional 300,000 XP per level.
Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. You start to need millions of gold to level up.
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Post by Fearghus on Mar 21, 2015 18:20:46 GMT -6
I'll be darned, it's not in there. I'll tell you how Gary actually played it; after name level, each additional level was the cost of originally getting to name level. a 9th level Patriarch needed 100,000 XP to get from 8th to 9th level, and an additional 100,00 if they wanted to go from 9th to 10th, etc. A 10th level Lord needed 240,000 XP to get from 9th to 10th level, and an additional 240,000 XP per level. An 11th level Wizard needed 300,000 XP to get from 11th to 12th level, then an additional 300,000 XP per level. Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. You start to need millions of gold to level up. Good lord, that is a lot of experience. I now understand the choice to roll a new character. Thanks for the input. |
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Post by talysman on Mar 21, 2015 18:59:45 GMT -6
I'll be darned, it's not in there. I'll tell you how Gary actually played it; after name level, each additional level was the cost of originally getting to name level. a 9th level Patriarch needed 100,000 XP to get from 8th to 9th level, and an additional 100,00 if they wanted to go from 9th to 10th, etc. A 10th level Lord needed 240,000 XP to get from 9th to 10th level, and an additional 240,000 XP per level. An 11th level Wizard needed 300,000 XP to get from 11th to 12th level, then an additional 300,000 XP per level. I figured name level would have something to do with it, but I also thought the obvious pattern for 9th, 10th, and 11th level MUs meant something. I had no idea there'd be that enormous jump. It makes cleric xp seem even more abominably low than I first thought. |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Mar 21, 2015 19:04:34 GMT -6
Cleric XP is low because cleric's abilities top off lower. All classes are not created equal.
Which suggests the question: why do fighting men need so much XP before topping out?
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 21, 2015 19:40:34 GMT -6
I'll be darned, it's not in there. I'll tell you how Gary actually played it; after name level, each additional level was the cost of originally getting to name level. a 9th level Patriarch needed 100,000 XP to get from 8th to 9th level, and an additional 100,00 if they wanted to go from 9th to 10th, etc. A 10th level Lord needed 240,000 XP to get from 9th to 10th level, and an additional 240,000 XP per level. An 11th level Wizard needed 300,000 XP to get from 11th to 12th level, then an additional 300,000 XP per level. Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. You start to need millions of gold to level up. Thanks for the info gronan. I'd wondered about this before. These numbers seem to fit well with the Alternate Hit Dice system in Greyhawk. Fighters - 240,000 XP per level above 9th, +2 HP per level (= 120,000 XP per additional HP) MU - 300,000 XP per level above 11th, +1 HP per level (= 300,000 XP per additional HP) Clerics - 100,000 XP per level above 8th, +1/2 HP per level (= 200,000 XP per additional HP) Thieves - 125,000 XP per level above 10th, +1/2 HP per level (= 250,000 XP per additional HP) So Fighters need the least XP for additional HPs over name level, followed by Clerics, Thieves and then MUs, which all seems appropriate. Not that we should be fussing over small HP increases at these levels.  |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 21, 2015 20:13:36 GMT -6
In the world of tabletop 1:1 scale fantasy battles, a hero could strike four blows in a round (or even more with lighter weapons, including swords), and there could be multiple rounds each turn. Even a basic man could strike in multiple rounds each turn. Meanwhile the caster-types could only cast one spell each turn, and even that one spell might not come into effect in the same turn, or even at all! So the ratio of blows struck to spells cast was Many:One.
By the time Holmes documented the 1:1 combat mechanics for D&D, the ratio of melee blows (with a sword) to spells cast was down to 2:1. Many gamers don't even allow those 2 blows, so then the ratio is down to 1:1--woe to all the fighters out there. Meanwhile, GH added multiple attack routines for monsters, so monster damage output increased relative to the fighter's damage output.
At the same time, the hero and superhero morale advantages have been forgotten (originally, a superhero caused normal-types to check morale just by approaching within charge range of them).
Many gamers also water down the fighter's advantage on the magic-items tables, or even wipe off the super magic swords altogether--a serious nerf to fighters. Meanwhile, the spell-casting-types gain evermore various and powerful spells.
End result is we often hear complaints that fighters are too weak, or require too much XP, or both.
If the fighting-man retained his genuine combat prowess, then perhaps his XP requirements would look better?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 20:28:12 GMT -6
Good lord, that is a lot of experience. I now understand the choice to roll a new character. Thanks for the input. You're forgetting the "End Game." You are now, as a 9th level Lord,(or 8th level Patriarch or 11th level Wizard) one of the Great. You have lands, a stronghold, vassals. Your liege is the King himeself, and knights and barons hold lands in fee simple from you. Roaming around beating up monsters to get gold is for common adventurers. You have far better things to do, and if you need gold, you have lands and vassals to get it. |
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Post by Fearghus on Mar 21, 2015 20:43:57 GMT -6
In the world of tabletop 1:1 scale fantasy battles, a hero could strike four blows in a round (or even more with lighter weapons, including swords), and there could be multiple rounds each turn. Even a basic man could strike in multiple rounds each turn. Meanwhile the caster-types could only cast one spell each turn, and even that one spell might not come into effect in the same turn, or even at all! So the ratio of blows struck to spells cast was Many:One. I might be comparing apples to oranges, but it seems relevant. Over on Dragonsfoot there is a Saturday night chat game in which I play a magic-user. It is Labyrinth Lord which is B/X clone (I think). Anyway, I have a couple of useful spells: sleep and web. I can only cast a few spells, but when I use either of them, it swings the tide of the conflict to our favor. Granted it is situationaly dependent, but when it works it is a significant force multiplier. There have been two instances where the party encounters a group of enemies and the group can be overcome with a single spell. The downside is that I have precious few spells, a horrible AC, and a handful of hit points. The spells are really powerful. If it is the same in OD&D then I can see why a magic-user only casts once per turn while the fighting-man has multiple attacks per combat round. |
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Post by Fearghus on Mar 21, 2015 20:49:21 GMT -6
Good lord, that is a lot of experience. I now understand the choice to roll a new character. Thanks for the input. You're forgetting the "End Game." You are now, as a 9th level Lord,(or 8th level Patriarch or 11th level Wizard) one of the Great. You have lands, a stronghold, vassals. Your liege is the King himeself, and knights and barons hold lands in fee simple from you. Roaming around beating up monsters to get gold is for common adventurers. You have far better things to do, and if you need gold, you have lands and vassals to get it. I follow you on the end game: moving from the dungeon crawl to managing lands and armies. Part of my interest is to continue a campaign from that point, but my mindset is that the lord is still fighting on the battlefield and becoming more and more powerful. Is experience earned from taxes collected? Or from fighting? Maybe raiding another lord's castle or throwing down a necromancer's tower? Perhaps at that point the advancement won't seem so important. Just approach it as a mix of diplomacy and risk, but use Chainmail to resolve the combats instead of simply bouncing. |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Mar 21, 2015 20:51:21 GMT -6
1 GP = 1 XP, taxes included.
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 21, 2015 22:16:13 GMT -6
1 GP = 1 XP, taxes included. But if you got that gold from your serfs, and the level ratio between a lord and a normal man 1:9+, you should only collect a fraction of xp on gold from taxes  . |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Mar 21, 2015 22:49:28 GMT -6
1 GP = 1 XP, taxes included. But if you got that gold from your serfs, and the level ratio between a lord and a normal man 1:9+, you should only collect a fraction of xp on gold from taxes . Hi Dan. I really enjoy your work, and especially your discourses on your blog. I don't follow. Regardless of the source, does not one gold crown ='one gold crown? |
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 21, 2015 23:07:20 GMT -6
But if you got that gold from your serfs, and the level ratio between a lord and a normal man 1:9+, you should only collect a fraction of xp on gold from taxes . I don't follow. Regardless of the source, does not one gold crown ='one gold crown? See Mr. Mornard above in the thread. The referenced portion of M&M is page 18. Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. You start to need millions of gold to level up. I was just pulling your leg about that though.  Full experienced should be earned on gold from taxes. Hi Dan. I really enjoy your work, and especially your discourses on your blog. You've got the wrong guy. My name's not Dan, and my blog is a barren, barren webpage, devoid of posts and free from reasonable discourse. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 23:08:07 GMT -6
I don't follow. Regardless of the source, does not one gold crown ='one gold crown? 1 GP = 1 GP But 1 GP = 1 xp * (monster level/PC level), never more than 1. This is clearly stated in the rules. SO, yeah, you're getting 1 / 9 XP per GP you get from a serf. Also, XP for being a feudal lord is not the same as XP for being a warrior. You might get more influence in politics as you go from 1st level Noble to 2nd level Noble, but you still fight like a 9th level Fighter. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 23:10:27 GMT -6
I follow you on the end game: moving from the dungeon crawl to managing lands and armies. Part of my interest is to continue a campaign from that point, but my mindset is that the lord is still fighting on the battlefield and becoming more and more powerful. Is experience earned from taxes collected? Or from fighting? Maybe raiding another lord's castle or throwing down a necromancer's tower? Perhaps at that point the advancement won't seem so important. Just approach it as a mix of diplomacy and risk, but use Chainmail to resolve the combats instead of simply bouncing. Well, remember, the PCs were originally not "ONE BAND OF MIGHTY HEROES INDIVISIBLY WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIP." They were adventurers, tomb robbers, mercenaries, and knaves who banded together from time to time in various temporary configurations. Also, we were all wargamers. Take a bunch of wargamers, give each one a castle and and army, and wars WILL happen. |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Mar 21, 2015 23:41:42 GMT -6
To Red Baron: oops. I have you confused with Dan Boggs. Sorry.
To Mr. Mornard: that seems like an awful lot of paperwork to figure out how much XP you get. Well, that's how it's done, I guess.
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Post by Finarvyn on Mar 22, 2015 5:20:37 GMT -6
I'll be darned, it's not in there. I'll tell you how Gary actually played it; after name level, each additional level was the cost of originally getting to name level. Thank you, Michael! Your post is pure gold! Like many others, I've often looked for patterns and extrapolated the numbers for higher levels just in case I might need them. (My campaigns always cap out at level 12, with John Carter being level 13 as per Warriors of Mars.) Now I want to go back and redo my charts to match what Gary did.  |
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Post by Stormcrow on Mar 22, 2015 11:12:18 GMT -6
But 1 GP = 1 xp * (monster level/PC level), never more than 1. This is clearly stated in the rules. SO, yeah, you're getting 1 / 9 XP per GP you get from a serf. So taxation XP is calculated with XP = (taxes collected in GP) / (PC level) ? By 2nd level Noble, do you mean, e.g., 10th level Lord? But the Men Attacking table goes up to level 16+. Or do you mean that becoming a landowner gives you a "virtual class" that starts at level 1, e.g., 9th level fighter/2nd level noble? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 18:46:16 GMT -6
The latter.
Actually, I yanked that out of my butt at a moment's notice. The Gold for XP idea is an abstraction to make wandering monsters dangerous; if a PC claimed that they should get XP for tax revenues I'd just laugh at them. You don't get XP for things that aren't difficult.
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Is this thing on?
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Post by Torreny on Mar 22, 2015 20:51:19 GMT -6
Oh, but it is so difficult for this humble tax collector in this nest of thieves and knaves. Oh, oh, oh...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -6
If you're the tax collector, perhaps, but not if you're the noble that sends the tax collectors out.
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Post by aldarron on Mar 23, 2015 6:21:18 GMT -6
To Red Baron: oops. I have you confused with Dan Boggs. Sorry. Heh, thanks for the kudos Scott. I guess it must have been my avatar. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 9:24:07 GMT -6
Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. I've had trouble trying to figure out how to get this to work in practice. If you have a party with members of various levels going up against a group of monsters with various hit dice (say an orc leader with a pair of ogres and a platoon of regular orcs) do you use average party level or max level or individual PC versus individual monster, or something else? I've also heard you say things that implied that Gary just eyeballed it. I guess you could do what 3e does and assign the group of monsters there own "level" |
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 23, 2015 9:47:34 GMT -6
Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. I've had trouble trying to figure out how to get this to work in practice. If you have a party with members of various levels going up against a group of monsters with various hit dice (say an orc leader with a pair of ogres and a platoon of regular orcs) do you use average party level or max level or individual PC versus individual monster, or something else? I've also heard you things that implied that Gary just eyeballed it. I guess you could do what 3e does and assign the group of monsters there own "level" Each player is awarded a share of the gold and combat experience, which is then modified by that individual character's level before the judge tells the player the experience they have earned (If the judge tells the player at all, and isn't secretly keeping track of it.) Henchman shares of gold and experience come from their liege-player's share, so don't forget to take those out. Its very behind the scenes, so you can definitely eyeball it if it isn't obvious. Mixed groups of monsters generally take some eyeballing. Depending on how many orcs there are, I would either call it orcs (1st level) or ogres (4th level) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 11:23:23 GMT -6
The Baron's got it pretty much right.
"Let's see, you've got 35,000 GP. You fought mostly 5th and 6th level stuff, so anybody 6th level or below gets full XP. Robilar is 9th level, he'll get 2/3 XP, Gronan is 8th level, he'll get 3/4 XP."
NPC's got half experience for their share, so if a 6th level NPC got 5000 gold in this case, they'd get 2500 XP. It's one reason we often played our NPC hencmen; when they were the PC, they got full XP.
When you've had six or seven encounters in a night, the fact that the two ogres had six hobgoblins with them is irrelevant.
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Post by Porphyre on Mar 23, 2015 14:31:44 GMT -6
If you're the tax collector, perhaps, but not if you're the noble that sends the tax collectors out. "THE TAX COLLECTOR, a new & exciting class for OD&D" ! |
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 23, 2015 16:35:25 GMT -6
I actually have the tax collectors for my renamed-blackmoor village written up, in case the players realize that their a huge chest of gold there ready for the taking.
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