Are you a wargamer?

[Deleted]

Just what is says on the tin. D&D was originally written of, by, and for wargamers, and it is my hypothesis that this greatly affects how one approaches the game.

And "wargame" means any game that deals with war, from RISK or STRATEGO or DIPLOMACY to small scale skirmish miniatures games like KORNS. (I've seen some weird-ass definition of "wargame" out there.)

[Scott Anderson]

I'm not clever enough to be a wargamer. I rp and throw dice and hope I don't die stupidly.

[Deleted]

Wargaming teaches you how to play intelligently in rpgs.

And nobody is born a good tactician; it takes practice. Every loss should be looked at as a learning experience. Don't play wargames if you're not OK with the idea that you're gonna get handed your @ss in a basket. A lot.

[tkdco2]

Yes, although I only play modern or SF wargames.

[Torreny]

Started out just modeling little towns and things for the old fogies, but otherwise began with wargaming, yes. Years later, a friend showed me a horrendous stack of photocopied papers after they found out I liked playing the old Rogue computer game, and told me it was like that, but not "stuck on itself".

[Morandir]

Yes, but not nearly as much as I would like. I've played Mage Knight (if you count that) and I love X-Wing. Song of Blades and Heroes is probably as close as I've gotten to more traditional wargames, but I really want to try SAGA sometime.

I'd throw together some proxies for Warmaster or Warhammer Ancients if I could find someone to play with. Unfortunately no one around here plays much tabletop except maybe Warmachine, if that.

[Deleted]

Solitaire wargaming:

lonewarriorswa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Programmed-Wargames-Scenarios-book.pdf

[Finarvyn]

I grew up on old SPI and Avalon Hill wargames, such as PRESTAGS and Third Reich, but haven't done much with that stuff in years because my wife and kids aren't into them. An excellent book on the subject is The Complete Wargames Handbook by James Dunnigan (the SPI guy).

I liked PRESTAGS because it had five different wargames designed for five different eras of ancient history, but the counters were universal so that you could mix and match (perhaps putting Viking longships and Egyptian chariots in the same scenario). The SPI wargame Sorceror is cool because it brings magic and such into the game, and the unit counters always seemed roughly compatible with PRESTAGS so I could put demonic infantry and the like into my ancients game.

I agree that old hex-and-chit wargames (and miniatures games such as Chainmail) teach certain elements of strategy which can transfer over to role playing.

[Deleted]

PRESTAGS...now that's a name I've not heard in a long time...

[battlebrotherbob]

I'm an old Hex and Chit guy myself. Played Wooden Ships and Iron Men, 1776, Squad Leader and the likes years before I touched an RPG.

I agree, those games lend a certain mentality to RPGs. Always looking ahead move wise is just one if them.

[makofan]

I was huge into SPI, had an S&T subscription, still play their games and AH games and GDW games to this day. Also did some WRG 6th miniatures. In fact, last night I played Titan While I prefer ancients up to musket-and-pike, I have gamed a lot of WW2. I played Squad Leader weekly for 15 years

[ffilz]

I definitely started as a wargamer (in fact, I distinctly chose to purchase Tractics instead of D&D at one point because D&D didn't seem like a real wargame to me...). Don't really do much wargaming anymore, but it definitely still does color my play and interests. My first wargame was Tactics II purchased at a yard sale when I was 10 or so.

Frank

[Dave L]

Definitely a wargamer, both boardgames and computer games.
I was massively into computer Harpoon at one time, but before that it was all boardgames.
European Theatre of Operations and Pacific TO I thought were absolutely wonderful - massive maps and piles of markers, and rules which allowed you to play from small scenarios up to the big "Start the war in 1937 with Japan attacking China".

And I still have fond memories from childhood of turning my bed into a battlefield by dis-arranging the bedclothes into hills and valleys for my toy soldiers. Good times!

[Fearghus]

I started with RPGs, and was later introduced to wargames. Risk, Axis and Allies, Diplomacy, Fantasy Warriors, and Warhammer 40k. There are one or two others but the names escape me. I remember playing this WH40k battle. I had some Grey Knights and had to cross this pool table to get to the other player that these tau armed with rail-guns. He shoot d**n near across the table and there was no cover. I was destroyed and only some of my teleporting fast attack ever got close enough to trade shots. I was so enraged I almost cried. It was a good lesson.

My preference is still to play an RPG, but wargames enjoyable. I recently started buying reaper bones and playing Chainmail fantasy scenarios with them. I like it.

[tetramorph]

I have played war games since I was little. I loved them then and I still love them.

I loved Stratego, Risk, Battleship. As I write this list I am now struck by how two of them imply hidden elements -- like classic D&D.

Another thing is that as much as I love them I am horrible at them. I always loose. But I have a lot of fun loosing.

I remember getting Revolt on Antares and being so psyched about it, especially the role-playing aspect with the different house leaders and galactic heroes! I got together with my buddy from down the street who was a grade younger than me. He trounced on me. The game was over fast. I think I was so lost in the role play I couldn't (and still often can't) game the game. I wanted the mechanics to be transparent to this grand war between the houses of Antares 9! Instead, it turned out to be a game where, if you played the mechanics themselves right, you would win, regardless of whether Dougal MacKenzie (or whatever his name was) looked like a bad-ass on his little chit.

So I guess finding D&D was the best move I could have made. In real D&D we finally have a war game, that is really a war game, but that clearly rewards good role play!

And they say you can never go home . . .

[talysman]

Nope. I've played Risk, I've played an SPI game, StarForce I think, and I've played Melee/Wizard as pure arena combat without the RPG elements. But all that was a couple years after playing D&D, and I wasn't really into it.

But I can see that wargaming can teach lessons on how to play D&D, which might be learnable outside wargaming, as it was for me, but must be learned if you don't want to be continually disappointed with D&D.

[Deleted]

There are many fine RPGs that don't assume you are a wargamer, and that's good.

I like D&D specifically because it assumes wargame competency.

[Morandir]

Mar 13, 2015 3:16:47 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Solitaire wargaming:

lonewarriorswa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Programmed-Wargames-Scenarios-book.pdf

I will definitely have to check this out.

The activation mechanic in Song of Blades and Heroes allows for a very basic sort of AI for enemy forces if you're playing solo, essentially rolling 1d3 to see how many activation dice each enemy figure will roll, then taking whatever actions make sense based on those results. I've done that a few times and had good results.

Since I started D&D with 3.x, getting into OD&D is what got me into wargaming, rather than the other way around. And I'm very glad it did!

[thorswulf]

I am a wargamer. I play with miniatures, I play boardgames, and I play rpgs with my kids. Gronan is right about not being born a tactician, it comes with much practice and lots of times being the loser. But if you learn from your mistakes, you have at least learned something. Honestly, all bad dice rolling aside, I have lots of fun just playing the games. I play the games with my friends and family for fun, the best reason of all.

[DungeonDevil]

Technically, yes, but over the last few years I've had little time to do any RPGing or wargaming, for that matter. (insert very sad face here)

My friend Wesley from WI introduced me to the concept of wargaming AND D&D in (perhaps) late '79 or early '80 in grammar school. He and his older brother and his father were all gamers, and Wes' house was litterally littered with hundreds (thousands?) of little, unpainted lead minis (probably Grenadiers, inter alia).

Nowadays and here in MO, there are no wargamers or RPGers at all. *sniff*

I've got a lot of WRG books and some more obscure wargaming rules I've always wanted to try out, but, let's face it, solo wargaming can be a drag. I've got Featherstone's Solo Wargaming, but haven't fully tried out any of the ideas in it yet. That Programmed Wargames Scenarios has been on my wishlist for years, but, crikey, 50 USD (as I see it now on various sites) used is a lot of cabbage to be spending on one book.

I've got the early TSR Nappy wargaming book Tricolor, but haven't run it through its paces either. It looks really fun (at least, much less complicated than WRG's 1685-1845 rules!).
I've got a copy of the hoary, early wargaming book by Morschauser (talk about simplistic!!).

Chainmail hits that sweetspot for me: not too complicated, nor too elementary. I can do historical Ancients, Mediaeval or Renaissance with it, and, of course, Fantasy, and now that I understand how to use it (thanks everyone here at ODD74!), I'm having some fun with it (though just solo right now).

We wargamers -- esp. dedicated, accuracy-minded historical minis wargamers -- are a dying breed. (insert another lugubrious, weepy face here).

[Deleted]

You know, it wouldn't be that hard to grid out a battlefield and play CHAINMAIL as a play-by-post. Especially if there was a third party to be a referee and roll the dice.

Just sayin'...

(Also, SOMEWHERE in my archives I have the "Programmed Scenarios" book... maybe I can write my own simplified version in my own words and post it as a PDF. But I'd have to find it first.)

[tetramorph]

Mar 16, 2015 17:50:50 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

You know, it wouldn't be that hard to grid out a battlefield and play CHAINMAIL as a play-by-post. Especially if there was a third party to be a referee and roll the dice.

Just sayin'...

(Also, SOMEWHERE in my archives I have the "Programmed Scenarios" book... maybe I can write my own simplified version in my own words and post it as a PDF. But I'd have to find it first.)

Looking forward to your CM PbP (wink).

If you ever do, sign me up.

And I'm looking forward to that PDF!

[Torreny]

Hey, I'd be down for that too, both suggestions.

In a few months I'll be moving to a bigger place, and will be able to set up a gaming room like I used to have, and have every intention of introducing some of the locals to Chainmail, among other games. Warhammer, Flames of War, and Axis & Allies are pretty popular here, but everyone's been more than interested in seeing other things.

[coffee]

Mar 16, 2015 16:45:11 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

I've got a copy of the hoary, early wargaming book by Morschauser (talk about simplistic!!).

I have this book, it's a great introduction. It provides a playable game with options for more depth.

You realize you not only can, but are encouraged to, add your own rules to what Morschauser presents, right?


(I'm specifically objecting to your use of 'simplistic' here. It has a connotation of 'only for idiots', which I think is unwarranted.)

[kesher]

Morschauser is AWESOME! Reading that book is like being taught how to wargame by your quirky great uncle.

coffee and I played a Napoleonic battle with these rules, and it was a blast. I'm pretty sure we tweaked some rules on the fly, too...

[DungeonDevil]

Mar 17, 2015 8:33:40 GMT -6 coffee said:

Mar 16, 2015 16:45:11 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

I've got a copy of the hoary, early wargaming book by Morschauser (talk about simplistic!!).

I have this book, it's a great introduction. It provides a playable game with options for more depth.

You realize you not only can, but are encouraged to, add your own rules to what Morschauser presents, right?


(I'm specifically objecting to your use of 'simplistic' here. It has a connotation of 'only for idiots', which I think is unwarranted.)

I had no intention of implying a person had to be an idiot to read Morschauser!
As it is on the page -- ignoring the possibility that one might be permitted to tinker and add houserules -- it is indeed very, very elementary. Keep in mind I come from a wargaming background centred on Phil Barker's exceedingly convoluted "3000 BC to 1485 AD" Ancients rules (6th edition, 1980) and the aforementioned modern ruleset.

[DungeonDevil]

Mar 16, 2015 17:50:50 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

(Also, SOMEWHERE in my archives I have the "Programmed Scenarios" book... maybe I can write my own simplified version in my own words and post it as a PDF. But I'd have to find it first.)

If someone could merely present notes on these scenarios -- such that it could stimulate a thread to adapt and discuss their application in a Fantastic Mediaeval context, preferably with CM -- that would be very helpful.

[derv]

Not Grant, but a nice article from Scruby's Table Top Talk on classic solo wargaming-1964.

Classic Solo Wargames

Grant, but not his solo scenarios. Instead, this is a full treatment of his early Table Top Teaser's. Great stuff.

Table Top Teasers

[coffee]

I'd just like to point out that "Programmed Wargame Scenarios" is not by Charles Grant, but by his son Charles Stewart Grant. (Not that that makes it any less of a good book.)

[coffee]

Mar 17, 2015 8:46:19 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

I had no intention of implying a person had to be an idiot to read Morschauser!

I thought that might be the case, and I'm glad to hear you say it.

I went through a lot of crap in my younger days because of the 'macho' attitude some of my fellow gamers had. "Real men play AD&D; that other stuff is for babies!" -- that sort of thing. I wish I'd had the presence of mind and strength of character to just stick to an introductory game until I was comfortable with it, and then move on.

That's why the word 'simplistic' set me off so.

But yeah, Morschauser has some good stuff in it.