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Post by calithena on Jun 18, 2008 12:49:01 GMT -6
So I'm too lazy to go over to the Tekumel list to bring this up right now but I thought of it talking to folks at K&K.
This is a way to get an old school game back in print, though Phil would have to be up for it.
Basically, Phil owns EPT, and the EPT mechanics are very similar to D&D's. So, my proposal is, strip out the Tekumel stuff, put in some 'generic fantasy' stuff, keep essentially the same mechanics, and publish a stand-alone game for basic fantasy roleplaying that uses the EPT mechanics - including classes, levels, hit points, etc.
I don't know if Phil is interested in extending his considerable legacy in this way, but he could give the world an inexpensive self-contained old-school fantasy system without any legal problems whatsoever, and without the OGL.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 18, 2008 13:11:27 GMT -6
So I'm too lazy to go over to the Tekumel list to bring this up right now but I thought of it talking to folks at K&K. This is a way to get an old school game back in print, though Phil would have to be up for it. Basically, Phil owns EPT, and the EPT mechanics are very similar to D&D's. So, my proposal is, strip out the Tekumel stuff, put in some 'generic fantasy' stuff, keep essentially the same mechanics, and publish a stand-alone game for basic fantasy roleplaying that uses the EPT mechanics - including classes, levels, hit points, etc. I don't know if Phil is interested in extending his considerable legacy in this way, but he could give the world an inexpensive self-contained old-school fantasy system without any legal problems whatsoever, and without the OGL. That's relatively easy to do. Hmmm. I have a couple of projects on the palte already, but...hmmm. |
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Post by klamath on Jun 18, 2008 13:43:19 GMT -6
Interesting. I was just thinking about how little of the specific flavor of Tekumel there is in the spell list in E.P.T. You certainly could use it as a basic fantasy system. In fact, as soon as my old gaming group had E.P.T. we stole elements from it to use in OD&D.
Of course, the monsters, nonhuman races, eyes, and miscellaneous magic items do have a great deal of Tekumel flavor and would have to go. The magical weapons could stay, as they are just adapted OD&D.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 18, 2008 16:12:44 GMT -6
This is a way to get an old school game back in print, though Phil would have to be up for it. Basically, Phil owns EPT, and the EPT mechanics are very similar to D&D's. So, my proposal is, strip out the Tekumel stuff, put in some 'generic fantasy' stuff, keep essentially the same mechanics, and publish a stand-alone game for basic fantasy roleplaying that uses the EPT mechanics - including classes, levels, hit points, etc. I don't know if Phil is interested in extending his considerable legacy in this way, but he could give the world an inexpensive self-contained old-school fantasy system without any legal problems whatsoever, and without the OGL.  That...is...BRILLIANT! I'd MUCH rather deal with a Swords of the Steel Throne rules set than deal with the OGL. |
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Post by calithena on Jun 18, 2008 18:02:58 GMT -6
Thanks Geoffrey.
I think you might want to replace 'psychic ability' with 'awareness' or the like, and maybe have attribute generation on 5d20 or 10d10 instead of d100, but basically this is a really straightforward project. I would be happy to help Victor and/or the Professor with this if it was decided to do it.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 18, 2008 23:04:42 GMT -6
The neat thing is that you wouldn't have to deal with teams of corporate lawyers. Instead, you would be dealing with Dr. Barker, whose old-school credentials place him in a league with Gygax, Arneson, Hargrave, and Bledsaw. I don't think ANY changes in terminology or mechanics would need to be made. The ONLY necessary changes would be to delete the Tekumel-specific monsters, eyes, etc. The replacement monsters could be presented in the EXACT same format as the monsters in EPT. (EPT even has treasure types. Even OSRIC doesn't explicitly mention "treasure type".) Spells could be used pretty much as-is. There is very little Tekumel-specific stuff in the spells. Magic and high-tech items could be virtually identical to the EPT items, with the Tekumel names and histories deleted. For example, here is "The Eye of Illuminating Glory" translated for Swords of the Steel Throne: Orb of Illumination: This orb creates a soft radiance around its user and has a range of 3 inches. It lasts for ten turns and can be capped and reopened at will. This light does not negate the chance of surprise.Monsters, I think, present the only decision-making time. What monsters to include? OD&D monsters? Monsters more similar to EPT monsters? Something else? If the good professor would bless such a project, I think that a dozen people and several bottles of wine could finish the first draft in a long weekend. Assuming that the EPT rulebook is in electronic format, each person could be assigned 10 pages and go through deleting and translating as necessary. Calithena's whole idea is so freakin' brilliant and (once stated) so obvious that I'm still stunned. The EPT rules are essentially Dr. Barker taking the OD&D rules (the 3 LBBs and Greyhawk) and Tekumelizing them. This project would merely take the EPT and de-Tekumelize them. OD&D could be reverse engineered so awesomely by this route. AND WOTC IS COMPLETELY BYPASSED. Only the venerable Dr. Barker would have control over the project. What a blessing. What a breath of fresh air. A brilliant doctor of philology rather than hordes of lawyers. I guess I'm a little excited at the prospect.  |
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Post by calithena on Jun 19, 2008 5:20:27 GMT -6
With monsters, if it were me I'd just keep a few of the Tekumel ones and then do what Gary did writing the LBBs - take the rest from mythology (Wyvern, Hydra, Dragon, Goblin, Giant, etc. etc.). You want the core game to be simple.
I do think this is a good idea. Victor, will you talk to the Professor about this? Would he be willing to let a small team of us run with this and then sell the game, with proceeds all or mostly going to him? Would he be cool with third party people indicating open compatibility, etc.?
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 19, 2008 7:50:08 GMT -6
With monsters, if it were me I'd just keep a few of the Tekumel ones and then do what Gary did writing the LBBs - take the rest from mythology (Wyvern, Hydra, Dragon, Goblin, Giant, etc. etc.). You want the core game to be simple. I do think this is a good idea. Victor, will you talk to the Professor about this? Would he be willing to let a small team of us run with this and then sell the game, with proceeds all or mostly going to him? Would he be cool with third party people indicating open compatibility, etc.? I would be happy to do this. However, here's my suggestion about doing it: go write it up, finish the product, and then let me present it to Phil. I know that sounds a little backward, but for something like this, having a draft to show him is much preferable to trying to explain why someone would want rules separate from Tekumel. I would be happy to help, since I believe I have EPT already scanned in as a OCR text file. Send me a PM so we can work this out. Thanks. |
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edsan
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by edsan on Jun 19, 2008 8:13:38 GMT -6
I like this idea and would gladly take a couple of pages from the rulebook to "translate".  |
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Post by calithena on Jun 19, 2008 8:38:05 GMT -6
That makes sense from my experience with Phil too, Victor. He doesn't want the hassle of overseeing projects outside Tekumel these days...I also don't think it's wasted effort under any circumstances because even if the Professor decides he doesn't want to do it for some reason, we can still use it ourselves as a 'fan ruleset' for old-school play and propagate it that way.
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Post by klamath on Jun 19, 2008 9:36:39 GMT -6
I don't know if this makes any difference to the project or not, but some of the text of E.P.T. is copied verbatim from OD&D.
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Post by calithena on Jun 19, 2008 9:46:02 GMT -6
Thanks Klamath. It's interesting that they gave Phil the rights back in that case. Probably those sections should be rewritten a little anyway.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 19, 2008 14:34:44 GMT -6
Probably those sections should be rewritten a little anyway. I wouldn't bother with that. There's no need for treadingly lightly or being cutesy or winky-winky (e. g. Gary writing Castle "Zagyg" instead of Castle "Greyhawk"). Especially since EPT is so close to perfect anyway, I'd keep it 100% word-for-word other than deleting the specifically Tekumelani references. In other words, thank God this isn't dealing with the OGL. How did Dr. Barker gain/retain ownership of the EPT game? I suspect it was as simple and as good-hearted as Gary and Dr. Barker simply and amiably agreeing to it. How I miss those days of doing business by handshake and common sense! Completely different attitude than the WotC red-tape. |
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 19, 2008 16:01:00 GMT -6
Probably those sections should be rewritten a little anyway. I wouldn't bother with that. There's no need for treadingly lightly or being cutesy or winky-winky (e. g. Gary writing Castle "Zagyg" instead of Castle "Greyhawk"). Especially since EPT is so close to perfect anyway, I'd keep it 100% word-for-word other than deleting the specifically Tekumelani references. In other words, thank God this isn't dealing with the OGL. How did Dr. Barker gain/retain ownership of the EPT game? I suspect it was as simple and as good-hearted as Gary and Dr. Barker simply and amiably agreeing to it. How I miss those days of doing business by handshake and common sense! Completely different attitude than the WotC red-tape. Well, no, actually. I was in Prof. Barker's kitchen the night he got the call from TSR telling him that some of the rights to Empire of the Petal Throne had gone to Lou Zocchi, of Gamescience fame. It was Lou who actually worked with Prof. Barker on this, and since that time, Prof. Barker has been a bit wary of game companies - even the ones that mean well. |
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 19, 2008 16:01:40 GMT -6
I like this idea and would gladly take a couple of pages from the rulebook to "translate". Sounds like an excellent idea. Thank you! |
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 19, 2008 16:54:43 GMT -6
I was in Prof. Barker's kitchen the night he got the call from TSR telling him that some of the rights to Empire of the Petal Throne had gone to Lou Zocchi, of Gamescience fame. Truly bizarre. One would think that only TSR and Prof. Barker would be involved. |
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 19, 2008 17:09:59 GMT -6
I was in Prof. Barker's kitchen the night he got the call from TSR telling him that some of the rights to Empire of the Petal Throne had gone to Lou Zocchi, of Gamescience fame. Truly bizarre. One would think that only TSR and Prof. Barker would be involved. One would think that, wouldn't one? But by the time this all happened, things had changed at TSR (and frankly, with Gary), so some of the earlier business arrangements had gotten fraught with formality and lawyers (keep in mind this was also roughly at the same time as Dave Arneson was suing TSR for royalties, so....). |
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edsan
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Post by edsan on Jun 19, 2008 17:25:23 GMT -6
Is it possible to know exactly what the details of these are? Or is a legalese-convoluted, silence-unto-perpetuity kind of thing?
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Post by thorswulf on Jun 19, 2008 22:15:21 GMT -6
Wow, I love this idea! I do have a few concerns about what is left after all the Tekumel references are removed. The gods and their cohorts are very important to the flavor of the game. How or what do you propose to replace it with, or will it get deleted? Obviously some change will have to be made. Will replacements be more generic? I could see this as a possibility as the gods and goddesses are fairly easy archetypes to convert.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 19, 2008 22:42:50 GMT -6
I'm paging through one of my copies of the EPT rulebook. Non-Tekumelani stuff does not start until page 14. The last page of non-Tekumelani stuff is page 103. Sixteen of the pages between pp. 14 and 103 is Tekumel art. Three pages are devoted to Tekumel's gods. This leaves only 71 pages to convert.
Ten good people, each de-Tekumelizing one page per day, could have that done in a week.
Of course, it's not quite as simple as all that, but still. When one realizes that we're talking only 6 dozen pages, the task seems doable.
A decision would have to be made as to the direction this project is to take. Obviously all the rulebook's PC races other than humans would be dropped. The question is: Do they get replaced? Are dwarves, elves, and hobbits put in their place? Something else? Or perhaps no replacements at all?
I think that illustrates the major question: Is the goal of Swords of the Steel Throne to be an OD&D clone, or is it to be simply and solely the swords & sorcery RPG that is left-over when EPT is de-Tekumelized?
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 19, 2008 22:54:59 GMT -6
A decision would have to be made as to the direction this project is to take. Obviously all the rulebook's PC races other than humans would be dropped. The question is: Do they get replaced? Are dwarves, elves, and hobbits put in their place? Something else? Or perhaps no replacements at all? I think that illustrates the major question: Is the goal of Swords of the Steel Throne to be an OD&D clone, or is it to be simply and solely the swords & sorcery RPG that is left-over when EPT is de-Tekumelized? Well, it would be interesting to see what we have left when we've taken that "important" stuff out (I'm thinking like Prof. Barker, here ). More seriously, let's see what we've got, and if it makes sense to add other stuff in, that could get discussed. I'm actually thinking that a core set of rules that is open, with setting specific material added in later supplements, could be kinda cool. |
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 19, 2008 22:58:06 GMT -6
Is it possible to know exactly what the details of these are? Or is a legalese-convoluted, silence-unto-perpetuity kind of thing? Eh. It's been a long time, and frankly I don't remember all of the details. And I'd rather not risk raising Prof. Barker's blood pressure by bringing it up. He's still a little sore about the whole process. |
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Post by calithena on Jun 20, 2008 5:53:13 GMT -6
We're at the ready to serve, Victor. I think the first thing is to assemble a lightly edited 'pure' document and then the second thing is to figure out how we want to change it.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 20, 2008 9:06:02 GMT -6
We're at the ready to serve, Victor. I think the first thing is to assemble a lightly edited 'pure' document and then the second thing is to figure out how we want to change it. I have a document to share with you and then we can discuss things further. I've sent you a message; please let me know when you've gotten it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 23:11:54 GMT -6
I am not sure I see the point in this exercise. You end up with awkward rules for a generic world... where's the joy?
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busman
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Post by busman on Jun 21, 2008 9:26:15 GMT -6
I am not sure I see the point in this exercise. You end up with awkward rules for a generic world... where's the joy? This: We'd be free to create as much content as we wanted for this system without tippy-toeing around the OGL etc as we wanted to. |
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 21, 2008 11:07:19 GMT -6
I am not sure I see the point in this exercise. You end up with awkward rules for a generic world... where's the joy? (snark) What? You mean OD&D? (/snark) How would the rules be "awkward"? And as far as generic rules - practically all of the rules sets we talk about assume a "generic world." What's your point? The genius of Original D&D is that you get to make your own world, your own creation. A set of rules that lets you do that, rather explicitly, because we've taken the world out, could actually be advantageous, or so it seems to me. Am I missing something? Keep in mind, I've played Tekumel for about 30 years, and much of that with Prof. Barker. So I can see your question might be exactly what Prof. Barker might ask - if you take Tekumel away, what's left? I think what you see as awkward is perceived by others as a really decent platform for other creative game settings. Can you see that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 21:38:09 GMT -6
Well, I didn't intend to be snarky.
O EPT was essentially a clone of O D&D mechanically, but using different dice for resolution. So, I guess that there could be some value in that. But the resolution system is pretty much all ready available in the OGL, sans character creation. And the OGL has little to no strings attatched, so long as one never claims D20 affiliation. So, create a charater gen system, attach the OGL, combat resolution, and you are golden.. You even have a lot of generic fantasy critters out there in the OGL, and an entire magic system.
What are the drawbacks? You have to acknowledge that it is OGL. You must define what parts are original, and which, if any, are also being released OGL. Unless you think you are gonna cut a fat pig, just release the whole thing as OGL, and let people play with it.
But, don' t let me talk you out of it, if you think it's worth the effort. Sometimes I just dont' get it. I don't get anime fans either...
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Post by dwayanu on Jun 23, 2008 3:34:24 GMT -6
Hey, I'm not sure I get it either -- even though I've used EPT for other settings (and D&D for Tekumel). I don't need someone else to ignore what's extraneous for me, or do any more of my imagining (at least of a "generic" game) for me -- and if the point (the only OGL-related one that comes to my mind) is D&D-particular stuff that's not in EPT ...
... It's still not in EPT!
Personally, I've seen enough D&D clones. At least the Palladium Fantasy RPG had Kevin Siembieda's personal touch, the particular magic of his own campaign. Something that explicitly wants to be "just the same" (not even more of the same!) is lost on me.
The original D&D and EPT are already on the market.
What I'd like to see is something else as original!
BUT the project won't hurt me in any way, so if others find it helpful then so be it.
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Post by dwayanu on Jun 23, 2008 4:05:39 GMT -6
To clarify: If the differences in EPT are acceptable, then you (or you, or you ...) could design a "D&D clone" that's just as different and be beholden to nobody.
Alternatively, you could make up something at least as interesting as Metamorphosis Alpha, or The Arduin Grimoire, or Villains & Vigilantes, or Bunnies & Burrows, or Lords of Creation, or Fringeworthy, or ...
You get the idea. Or you don't. Barker certainly did.
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